Frauds and lies

[Judge Bean]

Frauds and lies

Now, with the reference to Zippy, we are getting down to brass tacks.

This is some serious ######.

You all know what I'm talking about: the episode in the Time Zone Motel in Reno, when Mr. Toad finishes off the bottle. That's a real motel, I think it's on Lake Street, or Center.

Someone should scour the material for obvious references to the Time Travel Forum, and, yes, even John Titor.

Of course, the old forum might be closer to the vortex here, you know, pinhead... Boris... coincidence? I think not.

 

[CaryP]

Frauds and lies

The lies of the Iraqi war and occupation are coming to light, but who cares? Next stops are for an American draft, and an invasion of Iran, after an Israeli "pre-emptive" stike against their nuclear facilities.

Cary

Bush's case for war in ruins

Bush's case for war in ruins
By Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - Is there anything at all left of the Bush administration's case for going to war in Iraq or, for that matter, the way it has been fought?

The answer seems increasingly doubtful given what appears to be an accelerating cascade of news, leaks and admissions by senior administration officials over the past several weeks. Consider what has been disclosed in just the last few days.

On Monday, Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld told the Council on Foreign Relations in New York that he had never seen any \"strong, hard evidence that links\" ousted Iraqi president Saddam Hussein with the al-Qaeda terrorist network, which was one of the administration's two major justifications for the war.

One day later, the New York Times confirmed reports by Knight Ridder newspapers about the existence of a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) study on the Iraq-based Jordanian \"arch-jihadi\", Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, which had found no concrete evidence to support the administration's prewar insistence that Saddam's government had given him safe haven or that he coordinates his actions in any way with al-Qaeda.

On Wednesday, Charles Duelfer, the chief US weapons inspector in Iraq and head of the CIA's Iraq Survey Group, pounded the final nail in the coffin of the second most commonly cited justification for the March 2003 invasion. His final report concluded not only that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction (WMD) at the time of the invasion, but that he made no effort to reconstitute them after United Nations weapons inspectors left the country in 1998.

Indeed, the report, which was based an 18-month search for Iraq's weapons and covered more than 1,200 suspect sites in Iraq, a review of more than 41 million documents, interviews with Saddam, his top staff and many Iraqi weapons-program scientists and engineers, concluded that while Saddam was hoping to rebuild a WMD program - particularly one of nuclear weapons - his ability to do so had actually deteriorated over the previous five years, in stark contrast to the administration's warnings and Bush's current campaign rhetoric that Saddam posed \"a gathering threat\" to the United States and its allies.

As Illinois Democratic Senator Dick Durbin put it, the latest findings mean that the Bush administration had \"created a worst-case scenario on virtually no evidence\".

If that were not enough to throw the administration on the defensive, consider what else has come out over the past week or so, as well as the sources of the information.

On Monday, the former US viceroy in Baghdad, Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) chief Paul Bremer, was quoted as telling an insurance group the administration \"never had enough troops on the ground\" in Iraq, whether during the invasion, to prevent looting, or over the months that followed.

This has been precisely the critique of quite a number of retired military officers, many Democrats - most especially, of course, presidential candidate Senator John Kerry - and a number of prominent Republican senators, who themselves have become increasingly vocal about the administration's performance in Iraq.

And while White House officials tried hard to convince reporters that Bremer had never requested more troops, two \"senior officials\" contacted by the New York Times on Tuesday admitted that the CPA chief, who has been prominently mentioned as a possible secretary of state in a second Bush term, had indeed pressed for more forces, even before he went to Baghdad in June 2003.

The Bremer story broke just one day after the Times ran an unusually long investigative report on how another specific and highly questionable pre-war administration allegation - that 60,000 aluminum tubes Baghdad tried to buy in early 2001 was firm evidence Saddam Hussein was trying to build a nuclear weapon.

Based primarily on interviews with officials throughout the US intelligence community, the report found that nuclear-engineering experts at the Energy Department had shot down the notion - which originated with a junior CIA analyst who, according to the Times, \"got his facts wrong, even about the size of the tubes\" - within 24 hours of its being raised in 2001, and did so in four detailed reports that followed.

Aside from the now-discredited report that Iraq tried to buy uranium \"yellowcake\" from Niger, as well as the testimony of a self-proclaimed Iraqi nuclear scientist handled by the exiled Iraqi National Congress, the tubes were the only evidence for any nuclear program at all, according to the Times report.

While doubts within the intelligence agencies persisted, the administration, particularly Vice President Dick Cheney and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, raised the specter of a \"mushroom cloud\" as the only proof, and worked to keep both the public and the Congress in the dark about the dissenting views in the Energy and State departments.

These latest revelations come against a background as well of what has become an escalating battle between the White House and CIA career officers, who apparently are seriously concerned about the agency being blamed for mistaken estimates in the lead-up to the war, especially in the super-heated environment of a presidential campaign and amid considerable politicking over a pending reorganization of the entire US intelligence community.

Thus, while Bush and Cheney last month were fending off charges by Kerry and the Democrats that the situation in Iraq was increasingly chaotic as a result of administration incompetence, CIA officials leaked details of a classified National Intelligence Estimate delivered to the White House in August that concluded the best-case scenario in Iraq over the next 16 months was more of the instability and violence that have prevailed since April.

As likely, according to the leaked assessment, was that Iraq could dissolve into civil war.

A second document drafted two months before the invasion by the National Intelligence Council, which is chaired by the CIA, predicted a number of the challenges - including a strong anti-American insurgency and a surge in anti-American sentiment throughout the Muslim world - Washington would face as a result of war.

The two leaks provoked an outraged response titled \"The CIA's insurgency\" by editorial writers at the the Wall Street Journal, which was one of the leading voices for war, as well as from other neo-conservative voices.

James Pavitt, a career CIA officer who retired as head of the agency's clandestine service in July, told the Times he had never in his 31-year career seen such \"viciousness and vindictiveness\" in the fight between the CIA and its political masters, but could not resist a kicker of his own.

\"There was nothing in the intelligence [produced by the CIA] that was a casus belli\" that would justify war with Iraq, he said, echoing Kerry.

 

[Judge Bean]

Frauds and lies

Witness the secret war against Cambodia-- the only way out of a bad war is more war soon.

 

[StarLord]

Frauds and lies

Wag the very large Dog.

 

[Judge Bean]

Frauds and lies

I think that Bush will wheel out the corpse of Bin Laden pretty soon-- he will have been shot down by security forces in the mountains of Pakistan. He will be sporting that beard, that turban, that fierce, pious grimace of hate...

When you think about it, any 35-year-old Arab corpse will do. I don't know why this hasn't occurred to them yet if it hasn't.

 

[StarLord]

Frauds and lies

It would be actually much better for us if Bin Laden was found very much alive, in very good health with the exception that he drooled profusely, couldn't string more than two words together without giggling, wet the bed frequently and it was found out that he favored goats.

Producing him as a cadaver would only make a martyr out of him or a uncanny likeness to the flea infested used camel salesman at the end of town.

 

[pauli]

Frauds and lies

Hmm... It seems to me that there are two camps here. Those that believe there is something to be concerned with regarding terrorism and those that believe, to use Kerry's words, "terrorism is nothing more than a nuissance."

Sorry Cary, I have to agree with Smuda when he says you are working out of the playbook of those who believe in the Protocols. My goodness, you seem to be one step away from the neo-Nazi position when it comes to the idea of the Jews: "the Jews are our misfortune." Having been both inside and outside of the Jewish community, I cannot explain how scary it is to me that people, who espouse what I believe to be such venomous and hateful nonsense, are continuing in the rhetoric that built the gas-chambers. I am not talking about you specifically, but my skin began to crawl when I read all of that theory about 9-11 being a Mossad action. Simply put, the Jews just aren't that good, and/or that nepharious.

Yes, Smuda, the whole issue about the celebrating in the Palestinian streets is well known to those who live in Israel. Reporters who were there in the territories came back with film, ready to expose the world to what they witnessed, when they were told they could not publish it by their editors. When they tried to object, they were told, in no uncertain terms that they would never ever work in Journalism again if they showed their newsreel. Some of their lives were even threatened. So, most of them just filed it away as being unusable.

The problem with Americans is that we are pretty removed from the threat of Islamic extremism. We kind of brush it off as something "not serious." It can't be that these people would hate us so much; after all, we are good people and so are they. There is no way the Mussies would ever want to do to us what happened on 9-11. It couldn't have been that. Instead, it was the Mossad, it was the U.S. gov't; it was anyone and everyone else. Islam is a religion of peace don't you know. They have no reason to be so upset at us. There must be another explanation - anything other than what the Bush gov't may have said that it is.

And, if there isn't any other explanation, well, then "We deserved it." Just look at what we have done in the past. Look at the long list of intrusions we have made into the world. And to that I say, "Yes, we have made intrusions into the world. But show me one country that has not. To whom should we give the rock to throw that first stone." (Hint: if you want to give it to the Muslim communities, I would reconsider. They have been (and still are) more colonial that Europe has been in most of its history.) You obviously can't give it to Europe. You can't give it to the U.S. You can't give it to China, or Japan. We are all guilty at some point somewhere. Perhaps some third world backwater tribes who live in some jungle where most men never go???

So, getting back to the theme of this thread, what about allegations of fraud and lies within the gov't? Do they exist? Of course they do. But from what I can see it isn't so black and white. While it may make us feel better to point to the other side, no matter what that other side is and say, "I have seen the devil and it is you," we may want to realize things are a WHOLE lot more complex and convoluted than that. Can it possibly be that there are people high up in the seats of power that are actually decent and are working out of the intelligence information that they have? Is it possible that not everything in this blinking world is not about economics (oil)? Could it be that there are other forces involved? (i.e. G-d) Is man using his free-will to the betterment of society and to the world's benefit? Where does the real begin and end? Where does the paranoia begin and end?

To my mind, we haven't got a clue as to whether or not Bush is a horrible president. That jury is still out. We don't know if Kerry will (should he be elected) a better president either. Most of what we will learn about this era in world history, will be learned by our children or grandchildren. Right now we are a bit too close to the trees to see the forest with any helpful perspective.

Sorry about the rambling.

 

[CaryP]

Frauds and lies

Original by Pauli:

Sorry Cary, I have to agree with Smuda when he says you are working out of the playbook of those who believe in the Protocols. My goodness, you seem to be one step away from the neo-Nazi position when it comes to the idea of the Jews: \"the Jews are our misfortune.\" Having been both inside and outside of the Jewish community, I cannot explain how scary it is to me that people, who espouse what I believe to be such venomous and hateful nonsense, are continuing in the rhetoric that built the gas-chambers. I am not talking about you specifically, but my skin began to crawl when I read all of that theory about 9-11 being a Mossad action. Simply put, the Jews just aren't that good, and/or that nepharious.

Yo Pauli,

Where did you ever get that I was anti-Jewish? I've gone to great lengths to state that I am not. I hang out with Jewish friends here. I am anti-Israeli govt., just like I'm anti-US govt. Does that make me anti-American? NO. The Mossad is an instrument of the Israeli govt., just like the CIA is an instrument of the US govt. Are these two organisations guilty of crimes that the general population would be outraged over. Yes. Well there's probably less now with all of the scare tactics being practised by the US govt. Do I trust either of these govts. or their "intelligence" agencies? Hell NO.

So get it strait bubba. I ain't no neo-Nazi or anti-semitic. Not one bit. I am very concerned about how the governments of the world, especially the US, have become the masters of those governed rather than the servant as was originally intended. The concentration of power in the govt. and its institutions has corrupted it IMO.

The Zionists, who are Jewish but hate Jews, is a group that I don't like and don't trust. Hell, there are Jewish groups who hate the Zionists. Who are the Zionists? Do a damned google search. I ain't here to educate you. Zionists in Israel, neocons in America, close to the same thing. While you're googling check out the Project for the New American Century (PNAC). Look who started and when. Look who's a member. Check out their manifesto for a "Pax Americana" or a global American model of government. No, not the one you were taught about in school, but the developing police state we have now. Also check out how the PNAC'ers said they needed a "Pearl Harbor" type event to get their ongoing global wars going. That was in the late 1990's. They got one with 9/11. Apparently the bombing of our embassies in Africa and the bombing of the USS Cole were not enough. Do I think that the US govt. under the influence of the neocon gang would orchestrate something like 9/11? Yes. Do I think that the neocons would do a joint venture with the Zionist regime in Israel to be able to get the operatives out of the country after the event? Yes. Why were men arrested on 9/11, who were suspected to be Arabs celebrating from the Jersey side of the Hudson River and filming the 9/11 attack, found out to be Israel Mossad agents and released? You might want to check out what's out there bucko. You may find out your head has been in a very dark place.

I know I sound like a crazy man screaming in the desert. I didn't believe or want to believe that things have gotten so twisted and corrupt that something like 9/11 could be perpetrated on the American people by its own govt. The evidence is overwhelming that this is exactly what happened. Read Michael Ruppert's new book, "Crossing the Rubicon" Ruppert is a former cop/detective and investigative reporter. He does an excellent and painstaking job at laying out the details about 9/11. I doubt you'll do anything though. Like most Americans you'll just shake your head at the "crazy guy" from the Time Travel Forum of all places, and go about your merry way. Keep singing them happy tunes and drinking the Kool Aid. Your government is lying to you. They will not be there to take care of you when things get bad.

Cary

 

[Judge Bean]

Frauds and lies

Kool Aid in the metal tubs.

 

[StarLord]

Frauds and lies

Still, there was plenty of fresh vegetables, fruits, evening talks, just a tad short on personal freedom, the choice to live and oh yes, the Reverend was stone cold insane.