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<blockquote data-quote="pauli" data-source="post: 9774" data-attributes="member: 88"><p><strong>Frauds and lies</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Erm, Paul... Have you been to Israel? Have you visited the K'nesset? I have to think not because if you had you would already know that the answer to those questions is a resounding "Yes."</p><p></p><p>In fact, with the recent (meaning the past year or so) building of the infamous "wall," there have been mayors of Arab towns who came to the Israeli gov't and pleaded for the Israeli's to place them inside of the security fence (that is inside of Israeli land.) The Arabs are no dummies. There are a number of them that struggle between the freedoms they have living in a land governed by the Jewish gov't and their feelings of national pride. But one thing they do understand, they know their bread is buttered better over with the Israelis. If they are placed in PLO operated territory, they will be living under a repressive gov't sporting Arafat and his henchmen as the tin-horned dictator, to whom they must answer.</p><p></p><p>I have an Israeli friend who fought in the 73 war. She told me a story she witnessed six years before. In 1967, before Jerusalem was liberated, there were thousands of Arabs living throughout the city, on the Jordanian side. After Israel won and Jordon pulled out of the West Bank, the Israelis were faced with a tremendous problem. The Arab people who lived in the city were living in absolute squalor. There was no running water, cholera was rampant, little children ran through the streets naked and forget the idea of any of them being in school. Most of them were uneducated, naked and shoeless (the kids, that is). It was one HUGE mess. Deciding to shoulder the burden of these people, the Israelis put the sick into hospitals, created a plumbing system for that part of the city, cleaned the streets of offal, clothed the children and put them into schools. </p><p></p><p>After a few weeks, the Arab people began to flood the Ministry begging for the Israelis to take them on as citizens. The gov't hesitated at first, but then decided to issue citizenship papers. This went on for several weeks. As word spread, the Ministry offices were deluged with masses of people begging for citizenship. But then, inexplicably the large numbers suddenly dropped off to almost nothing. Knowing that there were many more who had not secured citizenship, the Ministry decided to find out what had happened. They were kind of curious as to what would change people from screaming and beating on their desks one day, to disappearing and hiding the next. So, they went and questioned them.</p><p></p><p>At first they couldn't get anyone to really talk about it. People became evasive. But, after pressing them, they started getting the picture. The PLO and other groups had seen what was taking place in Israel, with Arabs trying to get Israeli citizenships, and they began to lean on them. They would tell them, "You want to be an Israeli citizen huh? Ok, but if you do, say goodbye to your family in Ammon. Say goodbye to your uncle in Baghdad, etc. etc. Because if you keep persisting in this, one day they will simply vanish and it will be on your head."</p><p></p><p>Ok, putting aside this anecdotal story, there are Israeli Arabs who are members of the K'nesset. The Druze are Israeli citizens and they aren't Jewish - they even fight in the Army alongside the Jews. There are Druze officers in the army. There are Christians who have lived in Israel for many years. And, I don't think you have to worry about whether or not there is criticism of the gov't taking place by all cultures in Israel, that happens in all countries around the world in democratic regimes. Israel is no different. I don't have figures for how many non-Jews are in graduate school in Israel, but if they are anything like the U.S., the schools are more interested in admitting those who can pay for their education, not in worrying about whether they are of the "proper" ethnic background. To them, money is money; a shekel in the hand of a non-Jew is just as good as the shekel in the hand of a Jew.</p><p></p><p>Ok, and to be fair, I am not going to say the system is perfect. Of course there will be inequities. There are those who will favor a Jewish person over and non-Jew. Bigots like that exist in any culture. And, when you have one group that is pre-dominately over proportional to another group, there will be some monkey business. That happens in the States too. You and I both know that - or at least I think we can both see that in our country. However, the short answer to your questions is "Yes."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pauli, post: 9774, member: 88"] [b]Frauds and lies[/b] Erm, Paul... Have you been to Israel? Have you visited the K'nesset? I have to think not because if you had you would already know that the answer to those questions is a resounding "Yes." In fact, with the recent (meaning the past year or so) building of the infamous "wall," there have been mayors of Arab towns who came to the Israeli gov't and pleaded for the Israeli's to place them inside of the security fence (that is inside of Israeli land.) The Arabs are no dummies. There are a number of them that struggle between the freedoms they have living in a land governed by the Jewish gov't and their feelings of national pride. But one thing they do understand, they know their bread is buttered better over with the Israelis. If they are placed in PLO operated territory, they will be living under a repressive gov't sporting Arafat and his henchmen as the tin-horned dictator, to whom they must answer. I have an Israeli friend who fought in the 73 war. She told me a story she witnessed six years before. In 1967, before Jerusalem was liberated, there were thousands of Arabs living throughout the city, on the Jordanian side. After Israel won and Jordon pulled out of the West Bank, the Israelis were faced with a tremendous problem. The Arab people who lived in the city were living in absolute squalor. There was no running water, cholera was rampant, little children ran through the streets naked and forget the idea of any of them being in school. Most of them were uneducated, naked and shoeless (the kids, that is). It was one HUGE mess. Deciding to shoulder the burden of these people, the Israelis put the sick into hospitals, created a plumbing system for that part of the city, cleaned the streets of offal, clothed the children and put them into schools. After a few weeks, the Arab people began to flood the Ministry begging for the Israelis to take them on as citizens. The gov't hesitated at first, but then decided to issue citizenship papers. This went on for several weeks. As word spread, the Ministry offices were deluged with masses of people begging for citizenship. But then, inexplicably the large numbers suddenly dropped off to almost nothing. Knowing that there were many more who had not secured citizenship, the Ministry decided to find out what had happened. They were kind of curious as to what would change people from screaming and beating on their desks one day, to disappearing and hiding the next. So, they went and questioned them. At first they couldn't get anyone to really talk about it. People became evasive. But, after pressing them, they started getting the picture. The PLO and other groups had seen what was taking place in Israel, with Arabs trying to get Israeli citizenships, and they began to lean on them. They would tell them, "You want to be an Israeli citizen huh? Ok, but if you do, say goodbye to your family in Ammon. Say goodbye to your uncle in Baghdad, etc. etc. Because if you keep persisting in this, one day they will simply vanish and it will be on your head." Ok, putting aside this anecdotal story, there are Israeli Arabs who are members of the K'nesset. The Druze are Israeli citizens and they aren't Jewish - they even fight in the Army alongside the Jews. There are Druze officers in the army. There are Christians who have lived in Israel for many years. And, I don't think you have to worry about whether or not there is criticism of the gov't taking place by all cultures in Israel, that happens in all countries around the world in democratic regimes. Israel is no different. I don't have figures for how many non-Jews are in graduate school in Israel, but if they are anything like the U.S., the schools are more interested in admitting those who can pay for their education, not in worrying about whether they are of the "proper" ethnic background. To them, money is money; a shekel in the hand of a non-Jew is just as good as the shekel in the hand of a Jew. Ok, and to be fair, I am not going to say the system is perfect. Of course there will be inequities. There are those who will favor a Jewish person over and non-Jew. Bigots like that exist in any culture. And, when you have one group that is pre-dominately over proportional to another group, there will be some monkey business. That happens in the States too. You and I both know that - or at least I think we can both see that in our country. However, the short answer to your questions is "Yes." [/QUOTE]
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