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I'm officially done with this thread. Ren's on his own. Everyone do what you want.
Is Jesus Azizus Monobaz?
- Thread starter PaulaJedi
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Einstein
Temporal Engineer
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Oh Goody! We're gonna have a Ren Roast.
Sanyam Deshi
Junior Member
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Seriously? What am I supposed to say? "Hey, look, two more people agree with you, so we are done here. You are correct." You'd make a great politician someday, because you constantly create excuses to avoid responding to my counterarguments. I haven't read your book, but others have. Others who have problems with inconsistencies and inaccuracies in his books and his refusal to acknowledge them. Others who have looked into more source material than just the resources that conveniently conform to their beliefs, hence the term in this situation "confirmation bias," in which "these people say it's true, so that must make it a fact." It doesn't seem that you have any plans of convincing anyone that you are going to present a clean and unbiased argument, but if you do or want to prove otherwise, I will make it easy for you and provide you with some links of my own.
More Ralph Ellis Conspiracy Nonsense: The Final Debunking | The Musings of Thomas Verenna
That's just one post from Verenna, so here are all of them with Ellis tagged.
Ralph Ellis | The Musings of Thomas Verenna
Again on Ralph Ellis | Daniel O. McClellan
Also, just for fun:
Catholic Church Fails to Behead A Single Person in 2014 | CatholicVote.org
My justification for not reading your book is because there are so many people who have written books and created documentaries about how they think things took place and the evidence that backs it up, is that by the time I am done with all of them, my entire life would have passed. Nothing about Ellis' book makes it strikingly more "special" than the thousands of other different theories people have made, each quite different from the next. I would rather spend my life living my life and doing what I can to spread peace in the world instead of reading reasons why "I'm not allowed to believe what I believe in because I can't function productively in society and I pose a threat to national security."
Ren
Senior Member
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You think that only 2 people run these websites? Different authors contribute to these websites. Be careful who you endorse here. Tom has been implicated in fraud and also lied about his academic credentials. Ralph contacted his school and they don't have the records he claims. If you are him or you know him, I should warn you that I am connected to a government agency. You should be very careful what you say to me.
Ren
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,088
Sanyam, not reading a book and criticizing its author and the material in the book is as stupid as it gets. But making an excuse as to why you won't read Ralph's books is D.U.M. DUM!
Ren
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,088
The only thing that is roasted is all of you who have tried to argue with me that Azizus Monobaz is not the historical Jesus. I have yet to lose this argument with anyone. You're welcome to try. To those of you who say that it is impossible to know who the historical Jesus is, I say -- read Josephus. It is all in there. Any scholar who actually reads it will know that he is the source of the New Testament. Anyone who reads Plutarch, who lived at the same time and worked for the same guy as Josephus -- Titus, will know that much of the Bible contains Plutarch. The same writing style, often word for word transference from Plutarch's Romulus to the book of Romans. And Lucius Plutarch's Luke and Acts. Joseph Atwill has already made a solid case comparing Josephus and the military campaign of Titus as parallel to that of the missions of Jesus and Paul. Jesus and Paul have the same story as well. That is because all are the same fictionalizations.
Apollonius, Jesus and Paul | Men or Myths?
Apollonius, Jesus and Paul | Men or Myths?
Sanyam Deshi
Junior Member
- Messages
- 100
Once again, all you have done is:
-Stated that there are tons of people who share your opinion (because, you know, whatever more people believe is always the truth, right?)
-Threw some empty threats at me (quite desperate to get me to stop responding)
-Continued to lack the ability to distinguish fact from theory
I have not criticized Ellis, but merely pointed out the fact that he is a human who can have biases and errors of his own. Ellis is your god. You cannot fathom the possibility that he can tell a lie. You can find tons of information "debunking" Christianity all over the Internet because many people hate Christians and would like to see the religion crumble. If you put enough time into creating a story using "evidence," you can make anything sound like a fact. It's up to the individual to either have the sanity to just consider it as a possibility, or the narcissism to use it against those who don't "obey." All I see here is hate-mongering.
-Stated that there are tons of people who share your opinion (because, you know, whatever more people believe is always the truth, right?)
-Threw some empty threats at me (quite desperate to get me to stop responding)
-Continued to lack the ability to distinguish fact from theory
I have not criticized Ellis, but merely pointed out the fact that he is a human who can have biases and errors of his own. Ellis is your god. You cannot fathom the possibility that he can tell a lie. You can find tons of information "debunking" Christianity all over the Internet because many people hate Christians and would like to see the religion crumble. If you put enough time into creating a story using "evidence," you can make anything sound like a fact. It's up to the individual to either have the sanity to just consider it as a possibility, or the narcissism to use it against those who don't "obey." All I see here is hate-mongering.
You can find tons of information "debunking" Christianity all over the Internet because humanity is evolving beyond ancient ideas and philosophy. The reality is that when you take an intellectually honest fact based approach, applying critical reasoning and scientific method, taking into account all of known history and in regard to mainstream popular religions (Christianity in particular), it breaks down and falls apart pretty easily. ...suggests that it is nonsense, that Christianity (especially in modern form) is a 'false' religion.
People 'hate' Christians and would like to see the religion crumble because they are on the defense, sick and tired of living in a pseudo-theocracy, having to tolerate the often intolerant, self-righteous, arrogant, ignorant bigoted theo-tards telling them how wrong they are about everything.
I think most people are apt to respect the right of Christians to their beliefs, as they would anyone else. But simply exercising the right to religious freedom is not enough for so many Christians. No, they're (zealous 'fundies') insistent to create a theocracy and reject or dominate anything that isn't them. The 'picking on' Christianity is subsequent backlash.
That being said, My best educated guess (thus far in my studies) is that 'Jesus Christ of Nazareth' is iconic of and/or based on a real mortal person, an elusive teacher and ascended master with an awesome message that, among other things, has been skewed and butchered over the course of thousands of years in favor of religious power and influence.
I am not a Christian, nor do I espouse any particular religion. But I praise Jesus anyway, simply because I like what the guy represents.
Right on, Yeshua!
Sanyam Deshi
Junior Member
- Messages
- 100
@AAA
-Although many people have presented many versions of secure arguments suggesting that alternative events occurred during this time, these are not definitive conclusions.
-There are some Christians who fit the description you created. These only represent a small percentage of Christians, though. The two reasons why it's more than you seem is: 1-Extremists are more likely to get publicity. 2-Politicians tend to be arrogant and extreme, so when you get a politician who is Christian, chances are that he's going to be way more extreme than the groups he is a part of. Just as I tell everyone else, treat people for the individuals who they are, not for the preconceived beliefs that they have about the groups that they are in.
-Hopefully you aren't one of those bigots who thinks that Christians hold back scientific research. Although it's true that earlier history does contain some examples of this, modern-day Christians use the scientific method just as well as anyone else. No Christian in the science field ever says "I'm going to hold back results to a study because I think it's going to contradict my beliefs."
-I see you are taking the route to pretty much believe that there is no hope for Christianity as a possibility. I'm still sticking with my belief that it is a possibility. Everything has just been through so many translations and potentially manipulated by all kinds of variables, that there is no way to tell for certain the course of events in a clear-cut manner.
-One last thing: going back to the group judgment, just make sure to check yourself for any sort of generalizations and biases. It would be racist for a white person to make a general statement about black people, but it would also be racist for a black person to say "all of those white people are just out to get us blacks." Your belief that Christianity is a religion characterized by mostly intolerant people parallels this.
-Although many people have presented many versions of secure arguments suggesting that alternative events occurred during this time, these are not definitive conclusions.
-There are some Christians who fit the description you created. These only represent a small percentage of Christians, though. The two reasons why it's more than you seem is: 1-Extremists are more likely to get publicity. 2-Politicians tend to be arrogant and extreme, so when you get a politician who is Christian, chances are that he's going to be way more extreme than the groups he is a part of. Just as I tell everyone else, treat people for the individuals who they are, not for the preconceived beliefs that they have about the groups that they are in.
-Hopefully you aren't one of those bigots who thinks that Christians hold back scientific research. Although it's true that earlier history does contain some examples of this, modern-day Christians use the scientific method just as well as anyone else. No Christian in the science field ever says "I'm going to hold back results to a study because I think it's going to contradict my beliefs."
-I see you are taking the route to pretty much believe that there is no hope for Christianity as a possibility. I'm still sticking with my belief that it is a possibility. Everything has just been through so many translations and potentially manipulated by all kinds of variables, that there is no way to tell for certain the course of events in a clear-cut manner.
-One last thing: going back to the group judgment, just make sure to check yourself for any sort of generalizations and biases. It would be racist for a white person to make a general statement about black people, but it would also be racist for a black person to say "all of those white people are just out to get us blacks." Your belief that Christianity is a religion characterized by mostly intolerant people parallels this.
@ Sanyam Deshi
I apologize if I come off as bigoted or hateful toward Christians. That is not my intent. I have an inclination to be rather straight forward and provocative sometimes.
And for whatever it is worth, I come from a predominantly Christan family in a predominantly Christian community, and have a lot of Christian friends and associates that I very much care for. I also recognize the many positive contributions of Christians, such as charity and community outreach programs; battered women's shelters, homeless shelters, rehabilitation programs for drug addicts and/or prostitutes who need a way out, etc., etc., etc...
It's not like I'm hating on Christians.
I will clarify my above point from the previous post.
Over the course of the last few years, I have done a LOT of research into this particular area, be it the sociological aspects of religion, with special attention to Christianity in the USA. The actual number of what I will characterize as 'problem Christians' is an estimated 40-60+ million of just over 200 million people who identify themselves as from a Judea-Christian background.
I would define 'problem Christians' as those who typically exhibit positions and behaviors such as the following;
They are the ones who refuse to accept or respect the right to religious freedom of others. They generally take a very self-righteous arrogant 'holier than thou' attitude and claim they have an exclusivity to god, that they are right and all other beliefs are inferior, evil or wrong, and thus use it as a justification to impose their religious values and beliefs upon others through whatever means available or what they feel is necessary, or otherwise reject or dominate anything that is not them.
They are the ones who are politically active and insist that the USA is a "Christian Nation" in spite of a legal structure, philosophy and tradition to the contrary which promotes and/or protects religious freedom and equality.
They are the ones who hold authoritative positions who act in bias to deny permits to erect others' religious monuments, but insist it is okay for the Ten Commandments or nativity scenes to stand. They insist it is okay to say Christian prayers as part of legal ceremony, but deny others the same opportunity. They're judges and policemen that give people the choice of jail or to attend some kind of religion oriented program. They deny permits to build Mosques, or actively engage in protests, simply because they do not like them or agree, or are otherwise scared of them.
They are the ones who cleverly arrange media presentations as to paint Muslims as evil. They are the ones who unreasonably conclude that all Muslims are evil, and therefore fully support the torture, bombing and massacre of innocent women and children.
They are the ones who, unlike you, when presented with an honest respectful religious discussion, refuse to engage, and instead curse at you and/or ban you from chat rooms or blogs simply because you don't agree.
They are the ones who violently attack others for sinning.
There is no real legal premise or good reason to deny gay people their rightful equal place in society, to include the legal contract of marriage and all related financial benefits and tax breaks, etc. Yet in a nation of equality and religious freedom, gays are only recently being lawfully permitted to marry, the root issue being Christianity's nonacceptance of them.
They are the ones that take advantage of the young and impressionable captive audience of school children by bringing bibles to public school as to proselytize exclusively for Christianity, sometimes without their parents prior knowledge or consent.
I can continue with more, but I think you get the point. There are many millions of them who hold enough collective or individual influence to make a difference, and are doing so at the expense of others in favor of their own beliefs. They are typically zealous bigoted self righteous hypocrites in contempt of the man they worship, and generally give Christianity a bad name. You know the ones.
Actually, there are numerous examples of people denying, rationalizing, or outright rejecting solid science when it conflicts with their religious beliefs. While I recognize those folks are often lesser intelligent fundamentalist zealots, I also recognize there are a lot of moderate Christian scientists who are extraordinarily intelligent, steadfast and unwavering in their dedication to authentic and truthful findings.
I have to agree. A lot has been lost, ...lost in translation, bent and twisted, deviated from the original premise, exploited for political gain, etc, ..or however you want to state it.
Modern Christianity is premised on ideas that ultimately originate from a few key verses within a few chapters of The Bible. When you break it down and apply critical reasoning, it shows to be completely inconsistent, or at best, highly suspect. To put it bluntly, it is essentially based on hearsay which resembles a fairytale written in an ancient book. (The same can be said of a lot of religions.)
For example; take my earlier post in this thread citing the discrepancies with the relationship between Matthew 1 and Isaiah 7. The belief of Jesus' divinity is based, in large part, on the second-hand, anonymous, long after the fact account of a dream, whereby a man was 'lied' to by an angel of God about earlier texts, and in regard to having him accept a biological impossibility.
Siriusly?
Granted, until humanity discovers and unlocks all the secrets of the universe, there will always be religion. But with the modern understanding and scientific knowledge we possess, it is my opinion that we shouldn't accept unreasonable ancient beliefs and cultural standards. It is holding us back from progressing toward our potential.
And that is not to say that The Bible holds no value, as there are a lot of redeemable or retainable aspects to it. I don't necessarily believe there aren't truths within either, just that they aren't as many interpret or understand, or are even aware of.
Aside from all mentioned thus far, however much I may disagree with some things, I still adamantly defend the freedom and rights of people to believe in what I may consider nonsensical.
I think I already covered that.
I apologize if I come off as bigoted or hateful toward Christians. That is not my intent. I have an inclination to be rather straight forward and provocative sometimes.
And for whatever it is worth, I come from a predominantly Christan family in a predominantly Christian community, and have a lot of Christian friends and associates that I very much care for. I also recognize the many positive contributions of Christians, such as charity and community outreach programs; battered women's shelters, homeless shelters, rehabilitation programs for drug addicts and/or prostitutes who need a way out, etc., etc., etc...
It's not like I'm hating on Christians.
I will clarify my above point from the previous post.
Over the course of the last few years, I have done a LOT of research into this particular area, be it the sociological aspects of religion, with special attention to Christianity in the USA. The actual number of what I will characterize as 'problem Christians' is an estimated 40-60+ million of just over 200 million people who identify themselves as from a Judea-Christian background.
I would define 'problem Christians' as those who typically exhibit positions and behaviors such as the following;
They are the ones who refuse to accept or respect the right to religious freedom of others. They generally take a very self-righteous arrogant 'holier than thou' attitude and claim they have an exclusivity to god, that they are right and all other beliefs are inferior, evil or wrong, and thus use it as a justification to impose their religious values and beliefs upon others through whatever means available or what they feel is necessary, or otherwise reject or dominate anything that is not them.
They are the ones who are politically active and insist that the USA is a "Christian Nation" in spite of a legal structure, philosophy and tradition to the contrary which promotes and/or protects religious freedom and equality.
They are the ones who hold authoritative positions who act in bias to deny permits to erect others' religious monuments, but insist it is okay for the Ten Commandments or nativity scenes to stand. They insist it is okay to say Christian prayers as part of legal ceremony, but deny others the same opportunity. They're judges and policemen that give people the choice of jail or to attend some kind of religion oriented program. They deny permits to build Mosques, or actively engage in protests, simply because they do not like them or agree, or are otherwise scared of them.
They are the ones who cleverly arrange media presentations as to paint Muslims as evil. They are the ones who unreasonably conclude that all Muslims are evil, and therefore fully support the torture, bombing and massacre of innocent women and children.
They are the ones who, unlike you, when presented with an honest respectful religious discussion, refuse to engage, and instead curse at you and/or ban you from chat rooms or blogs simply because you don't agree.
They are the ones who violently attack others for sinning.
There is no real legal premise or good reason to deny gay people their rightful equal place in society, to include the legal contract of marriage and all related financial benefits and tax breaks, etc. Yet in a nation of equality and religious freedom, gays are only recently being lawfully permitted to marry, the root issue being Christianity's nonacceptance of them.
They are the ones that take advantage of the young and impressionable captive audience of school children by bringing bibles to public school as to proselytize exclusively for Christianity, sometimes without their parents prior knowledge or consent.
I can continue with more, but I think you get the point. There are many millions of them who hold enough collective or individual influence to make a difference, and are doing so at the expense of others in favor of their own beliefs. They are typically zealous bigoted self righteous hypocrites in contempt of the man they worship, and generally give Christianity a bad name. You know the ones.
Actually, there are numerous examples of people denying, rationalizing, or outright rejecting solid science when it conflicts with their religious beliefs. While I recognize those folks are often lesser intelligent fundamentalist zealots, I also recognize there are a lot of moderate Christian scientists who are extraordinarily intelligent, steadfast and unwavering in their dedication to authentic and truthful findings.
I have to agree. A lot has been lost, ...lost in translation, bent and twisted, deviated from the original premise, exploited for political gain, etc, ..or however you want to state it.
Modern Christianity is premised on ideas that ultimately originate from a few key verses within a few chapters of The Bible. When you break it down and apply critical reasoning, it shows to be completely inconsistent, or at best, highly suspect. To put it bluntly, it is essentially based on hearsay which resembles a fairytale written in an ancient book. (The same can be said of a lot of religions.)
For example; take my earlier post in this thread citing the discrepancies with the relationship between Matthew 1 and Isaiah 7. The belief of Jesus' divinity is based, in large part, on the second-hand, anonymous, long after the fact account of a dream, whereby a man was 'lied' to by an angel of God about earlier texts, and in regard to having him accept a biological impossibility.
Siriusly?
Granted, until humanity discovers and unlocks all the secrets of the universe, there will always be religion. But with the modern understanding and scientific knowledge we possess, it is my opinion that we shouldn't accept unreasonable ancient beliefs and cultural standards. It is holding us back from progressing toward our potential.
And that is not to say that The Bible holds no value, as there are a lot of redeemable or retainable aspects to it. I don't necessarily believe there aren't truths within either, just that they aren't as many interpret or understand, or are even aware of.
Aside from all mentioned thus far, however much I may disagree with some things, I still adamantly defend the freedom and rights of people to believe in what I may consider nonsensical.
I think I already covered that.