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<blockquote data-quote="pauli" data-source="post: 9593" data-attributes="member: 88"><p><strong>Re: Islam</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>Sorry to muck up the waters of the love fest here, but I have to wonder kutibah1 what sort of Muslim you claim to be. Are you Sunni? Shiite? Wahhabi? Litteral in your Qu'ranic, or liberal in your Qu'ranic interpretation? (sorry don't know the equivalent word here.) Or, is this just taquiyyah for the benefit of the less informed infidels on the boards. For those who wish to learn about taquiyyah, here is a site that explains what that means: <a href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178" target="_blank">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178</a> .</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><em>1. We do NOT believe in violence. Al-Qaeda and other Terrorist groups think they need to kill people for Allah. This is NOT what muslims believe.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Well, maybe you do not believe in violence, but there are a lot of your practitioners who do and/or are willing to stand by quietly, while others do the dirty work of killing the infidels in Jihad.</p><p> </p><p><em>2. Women hundereds of years back had not many rights and men were thought to control them. This has changed over time and sadly, some Islamic countries still support this theory.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>There may be some truth to this in some of the more "modern" countries. And women are beginning to see some freedoms they have not seen before, but those are piddling in the overall scheme of things. It still happens all the time in Islamic countries that women are abused badly, when they do not follow the whims of their men in his decision making processes. If she doesn't comply with him, then the beatings begin. In fact, in Egypt, there was a show telling the men the proper way to beat their wives - the size of the stick allowed - and that this is a necessary and proper way of "training" one's wife in the Qur'anic way. <a href="http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR2704" target="_blank">http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=arc...ea=sr&ID=SR2704</a></p><p> </p><p>Rape is also a pretty common "ugly little secret." Women, who only count as one half a person, under Shariah law, cannot testify in a rape case at all. In order for her to prevail in a court case on rape, again under Shariah law, there have to be four men who witnessed and will testify to the rape in court. If there aren't four men (and remember women aren't allowed to testify here - otherwise eight women could theoretically do this), who witnessed the PENETRATION, then the woman had better keep her mouth shut. If not, she will be accused of being complicit in the act, whether she asked for it or not. If she does not have the witnesses, then she will be to blame for the rape and sentenced as either an adulterer (if she is married) or as a single woman who has engaged in consentual pre-marital sex. This leaves her open to being killed by a male family member in order to assuage their broken sense of "honor." Another dirty little secret going on, under the wire, are surgeries to repair the hymen. These can be found for the right price if one needs to find a doctor who will do it.</p><p> </p><p><em>3. Women are NOT required to wear hijabs (vails) over their heads. Every women has the right to choose to do so or not. It is not in the Qu'ran to do so. The reason why many woman do so is because they fear of being treated differently in Islamic States. My mother lives in the U.S.A., is also a muslim, and doesn't wear the hijab. The reason why some choose to do so is because they don't want to attract men by their looks, but instead by their personality.</em></p><p> </p><p>I would say this is partially true. Yes, the women choose to wear it in order to NOT ATTRACT the wrong sort of attention. But really, what choice do they have when many of the men, especially those who live in countries where polygamy is the name of the game, are pretty much sex starved, and where the men are taught that they can have sex without consequences, as much as they want whenever, but the women cannot reciprocate in like manner. Any woman who goes outside without a hijab will most likely be viewed as a slut. Therefore, the women choose to be viewed without being seen as a s-x toy for the man's amusement. Wow! Big choice.</p><p> </p><p><em>4. Children are NOT taught to kill people. The acts of teaching children to do so on T.V. are just .05% of the arab societies. This shows you how bias and censored the American media is.</em></p><p> </p><p>I think you are underestimating here. Yes, there are those societies who do not teach their children, explicitly, to kill people. But when they view their parents taking pleasure in events, such as 9/11 or the Madrid bombings or anything of like kind, they get the message that killing isn't such a bad thing.</p><p> </p><p><em>5. I believe strongly AGAINST suicide bombers.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>I am truly happy to hear this. I only wish that those Muslims who do, and there are a good share, echoed your sentiments.</p><p> </p><p><em>6. If you go back way back in ancient history, the palestinians were in Palestine way before the Israelies. Now I do understand the British had given them a right to live there about 60 years ago, but they did this without actually having a right to do so. How would you like it if Britain gave france for example a "right" to take over and live in the U.S.A.? I don't think you would be too happy with it if some french man came and took over your home. I am sure you would fight for it all you can if the government didn't do anything about it.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Ah yes, the historical revisionism that Islam puts into place with its spread. Can you point me to any <strong>credible </strong>source that will back up your assertion here? Jews/children of Israel/whatever you wish to call them came into the land in about 1400 to 1200 B.C.E. The Philistines (who were Greek Sea faring people) landed in the Gaza strip about 100 to 200 years later - after the Jewish people conquered the land of Canaan. Mohammed's first Jihad happened in the 600's A.D. (C.E.) The jihad that swept out of the Arabian desert around 612 A.D. conquered peaceful Christian, Zoroastrian and Coptic lands - slaughtering, plundering and pillaging villages throughout the Mediterranean area. Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in these Jihadi raids. Women were taken into slavery, men, from the age of 12 and up were killed and cities were plundered. And all of this happening <strong>before </strong>the Crusades even happened. (Muslims want us in the west to feel guilty for the Crusades even after we have apologized for them over and over and over again, but they have as yet to apologize to the Christians, Zoroastrians and Hindus for their wars of conquest.) Oh, getting back... The land, which was once called Judea and was principally Jewish and Samarian, was conquered by the Muslims around 800 A.D. Until that point, NO MUSLIMS - or very few lived there. Jews and Samaritans had been on that land for way many more years than Muslims. Palestinians, as a group, did not exist before 1964. The first people to call themselves "Palestinians," if you wish to use that word, were Jews. Around 1948 there were three basic groups in the former land called "Palestine," the Jews, both native and imported, the Christian Arabs and the Muslim Arabs - many of whom were transplants themselves from the Arab world. The land was "owned" by absentee landowners, who really didn't give a squat for the deserts and swamps in that region. Most of the "Palestinian Arabs" only arrived on the scene once the "crazy Jewish settlers" arrived and bought the most worthless tracts and made it into a garden. Then, all of the sudden, the Arabs in the lands around came and squatted amongst them. The "Palestinians" and there cause was created by an Egyptian Arab by the name of Yassir Arafat at the behest of the EU, EAD. Prior to 1964, they didn't even exist, except as a group of people whose only contact with the land was primarily squatting there. There has never been a point in time when the Jews did not live in the land currently known as Israel - from the time of 1400 to 1200 B.C.</p><p> </p><p>But hey, who cares about history, much less about getting the facts straight. When your religion tells you that all other religions are really a derivative of theirs, even though theirs came at the end of the historical time line, then history really doesn't mean a thing.</p><p> </p><p><em>7. Lastly, Islam is a PEACEFUL religion. We believe the opposite of what the media says. We do not believe in violence. The Qu'ran is as much peaceful as the Bible is. We must be curteous to our neighbors 5 blocks in every direction. We must treat all people equally. We pray 5 times a day and pay Zakat to the poor yearly. Don't let a few terrorist groups lead you to another thought. Terrorist groups come from ALL religions. Just because this one happened to be linked to Islam doesn't mean it is what muslims are."</em> </p><p>Yes, Islam is PEACEFUL... IF YOU ARE A MUSLIM. If, however, you are not, then it is a religion of war. Islam's territories are bloody at the edges and have always been. Or are you claiming you don't believe in Jihad or the dar al Islam (world of Islam) and dar al-harb (world of war). If so, you are jettisoning much of Islamic theology and it's teachings. Anyone who has not yet submitted to Islam's dominance has three choices: 1. convert and become Muslim, 2. pay the Jizyah - poll tax for Muslims - which allows you to be a second class citizen within the Umma, and therefore exploitable or 3. to die, if you have any sense of courage and won't accept coversion or the life of a second class exploitable citizen. Does anyone even consider what happened to all of the Christian/Jewish/Zoroastrian/Bhuddist/Hindu communities that used to exist in the areas in which Islam has complete dominance? They disappeared. Why? Many converted, many more died and some "got out of Dodge." Can a non-Muslim visit Mecca? Can a non-Muslim stay in Saudi Arabia for more than three days, unless they are working on a government working pass and stationed in a specific area that is provided for their benefit? Can a non-Muslim build a new church, temple or synagogue in a Muslim country? Can they repair a church, temple or synagogue in a Muslim country? (The answer to these last two questions is and emphatic "NO.") And yet, the Muslims come into the western countries and build a mosques whenever and wherever they want ... Hmm. Something seems pretty unbalanced in that equation. </p><p> </p><p>I don't mind that other people have differences of opinions on these boards, but outright lies, obfuscations, apologetics, taquiyyah and or kitman is not something I stomach very well. That is the reason why I decided to post again.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pauli, post: 9593, member: 88"] [b]Re: Islam[/b] Sorry to muck up the waters of the love fest here, but I have to wonder kutibah1 what sort of Muslim you claim to be. Are you Sunni? Shiite? Wahhabi? Litteral in your Qu'ranic, or liberal in your Qu'ranic interpretation? (sorry don't know the equivalent word here.) Or, is this just taquiyyah for the benefit of the less informed infidels on the boards. For those who wish to learn about taquiyyah, here is a site that explains what that means: [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178[/url] . [i]1. We do NOT believe in violence. Al-Qaeda and other Terrorist groups think they need to kill people for Allah. This is NOT what muslims believe. [/i] Well, maybe you do not believe in violence, but there are a lot of your practitioners who do and/or are willing to stand by quietly, while others do the dirty work of killing the infidels in Jihad. [i]2. Women hundereds of years back had not many rights and men were thought to control them. This has changed over time and sadly, some Islamic countries still support this theory. [/i] There may be some truth to this in some of the more "modern" countries. And women are beginning to see some freedoms they have not seen before, but those are piddling in the overall scheme of things. It still happens all the time in Islamic countries that women are abused badly, when they do not follow the whims of their men in his decision making processes. If she doesn't comply with him, then the beatings begin. In fact, in Egypt, there was a show telling the men the proper way to beat their wives - the size of the stick allowed - and that this is a necessary and proper way of "training" one's wife in the Qur'anic way. [url=http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR2704]http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=arc...ea=sr&ID=SR2704[/url] Rape is also a pretty common "ugly little secret." Women, who only count as one half a person, under Shariah law, cannot testify in a rape case at all. In order for her to prevail in a court case on rape, again under Shariah law, there have to be four men who witnessed and will testify to the rape in court. If there aren't four men (and remember women aren't allowed to testify here - otherwise eight women could theoretically do this), who witnessed the PENETRATION, then the woman had better keep her mouth shut. If not, she will be accused of being complicit in the act, whether she asked for it or not. If she does not have the witnesses, then she will be to blame for the rape and sentenced as either an adulterer (if she is married) or as a single woman who has engaged in consentual pre-marital sex. This leaves her open to being killed by a male family member in order to assuage their broken sense of "honor." Another dirty little secret going on, under the wire, are surgeries to repair the hymen. These can be found for the right price if one needs to find a doctor who will do it. [i]3. Women are NOT required to wear hijabs (vails) over their heads. Every women has the right to choose to do so or not. It is not in the Qu'ran to do so. The reason why many woman do so is because they fear of being treated differently in Islamic States. My mother lives in the U.S.A., is also a muslim, and doesn't wear the hijab. The reason why some choose to do so is because they don't want to attract men by their looks, but instead by their personality.[/i] I would say this is partially true. Yes, the women choose to wear it in order to NOT ATTRACT the wrong sort of attention. But really, what choice do they have when many of the men, especially those who live in countries where polygamy is the name of the game, are pretty much sex starved, and where the men are taught that they can have sex without consequences, as much as they want whenever, but the women cannot reciprocate in like manner. Any woman who goes outside without a hijab will most likely be viewed as a slut. Therefore, the women choose to be viewed without being seen as a s-x toy for the man's amusement. Wow! Big choice. [i]4. Children are NOT taught to kill people. The acts of teaching children to do so on T.V. are just .05% of the arab societies. This shows you how bias and censored the American media is.[/i] I think you are underestimating here. Yes, there are those societies who do not teach their children, explicitly, to kill people. But when they view their parents taking pleasure in events, such as 9/11 or the Madrid bombings or anything of like kind, they get the message that killing isn't such a bad thing. [i]5. I believe strongly AGAINST suicide bombers. [/i] I am truly happy to hear this. I only wish that those Muslims who do, and there are a good share, echoed your sentiments. [i]6. If you go back way back in ancient history, the palestinians were in Palestine way before the Israelies. Now I do understand the British had given them a right to live there about 60 years ago, but they did this without actually having a right to do so. How would you like it if Britain gave france for example a "right" to take over and live in the U.S.A.? I don't think you would be too happy with it if some french man came and took over your home. I am sure you would fight for it all you can if the government didn't do anything about it. [/i] Ah yes, the historical revisionism that Islam puts into place with its spread. Can you point me to any [b]credible [/b]source that will back up your assertion here? Jews/children of Israel/whatever you wish to call them came into the land in about 1400 to 1200 B.C.E. The Philistines (who were Greek Sea faring people) landed in the Gaza strip about 100 to 200 years later - after the Jewish people conquered the land of Canaan. Mohammed's first Jihad happened in the 600's A.D. (C.E.) The jihad that swept out of the Arabian desert around 612 A.D. conquered peaceful Christian, Zoroastrian and Coptic lands - slaughtering, plundering and pillaging villages throughout the Mediterranean area. Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in these Jihadi raids. Women were taken into slavery, men, from the age of 12 and up were killed and cities were plundered. And all of this happening [b]before [/b]the Crusades even happened. (Muslims want us in the west to feel guilty for the Crusades even after we have apologized for them over and over and over again, but they have as yet to apologize to the Christians, Zoroastrians and Hindus for their wars of conquest.) Oh, getting back... The land, which was once called Judea and was principally Jewish and Samarian, was conquered by the Muslims around 800 A.D. Until that point, NO MUSLIMS - or very few lived there. Jews and Samaritans had been on that land for way many more years than Muslims. Palestinians, as a group, did not exist before 1964. The first people to call themselves "Palestinians," if you wish to use that word, were Jews. Around 1948 there were three basic groups in the former land called "Palestine," the Jews, both native and imported, the Christian Arabs and the Muslim Arabs - many of whom were transplants themselves from the Arab world. The land was "owned" by absentee landowners, who really didn't give a squat for the deserts and swamps in that region. Most of the "Palestinian Arabs" only arrived on the scene once the "crazy Jewish settlers" arrived and bought the most worthless tracts and made it into a garden. Then, all of the sudden, the Arabs in the lands around came and squatted amongst them. The "Palestinians" and there cause was created by an Egyptian Arab by the name of Yassir Arafat at the behest of the EU, EAD. Prior to 1964, they didn't even exist, except as a group of people whose only contact with the land was primarily squatting there. There has never been a point in time when the Jews did not live in the land currently known as Israel - from the time of 1400 to 1200 B.C. But hey, who cares about history, much less about getting the facts straight. When your religion tells you that all other religions are really a derivative of theirs, even though theirs came at the end of the historical time line, then history really doesn't mean a thing. [i]7. Lastly, Islam is a PEACEFUL religion. We believe the opposite of what the media says. We do not believe in violence. The Qu'ran is as much peaceful as the Bible is. We must be curteous to our neighbors 5 blocks in every direction. We must treat all people equally. We pray 5 times a day and pay Zakat to the poor yearly. Don't let a few terrorist groups lead you to another thought. Terrorist groups come from ALL religions. Just because this one happened to be linked to Islam doesn't mean it is what muslims are."[/i] Yes, Islam is PEACEFUL... IF YOU ARE A MUSLIM. If, however, you are not, then it is a religion of war. Islam's territories are bloody at the edges and have always been. Or are you claiming you don't believe in Jihad or the dar al Islam (world of Islam) and dar al-harb (world of war). If so, you are jettisoning much of Islamic theology and it's teachings. Anyone who has not yet submitted to Islam's dominance has three choices: 1. convert and become Muslim, 2. pay the Jizyah - poll tax for Muslims - which allows you to be a second class citizen within the Umma, and therefore exploitable or 3. to die, if you have any sense of courage and won't accept coversion or the life of a second class exploitable citizen. Does anyone even consider what happened to all of the Christian/Jewish/Zoroastrian/Bhuddist/Hindu communities that used to exist in the areas in which Islam has complete dominance? They disappeared. Why? Many converted, many more died and some "got out of Dodge." Can a non-Muslim visit Mecca? Can a non-Muslim stay in Saudi Arabia for more than three days, unless they are working on a government working pass and stationed in a specific area that is provided for their benefit? Can a non-Muslim build a new church, temple or synagogue in a Muslim country? Can they repair a church, temple or synagogue in a Muslim country? (The answer to these last two questions is and emphatic "NO.") And yet, the Muslims come into the western countries and build a mosques whenever and wherever they want ... Hmm. Something seems pretty unbalanced in that equation. I don't mind that other people have differences of opinions on these boards, but outright lies, obfuscations, apologetics, taquiyyah and or kitman is not something I stomach very well. That is the reason why I decided to post again. [/QUOTE]
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