new theory...

shane

Junior Member
Messages
91
Re: new theory...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"thenumbersix\")</div>
Is amazing how many people resort to the unknown intelligent influence to answer difficult questions. Why is it so hard to believe that the system we live in works because it does. Some of the astonishing things that actually physically happen are mind blowing enough to heap a lot of respect onto the Universe we live in and the Planet we live on...[/b]

When an outcome is the product of too many variables to be processed by an observant mind, that outcome will seem the product of chaos. When faced with chaos, it is the overwhelming tendency of the human mind to invent law. That law is what we know as religion, and it defines the end of our knowledge.

Many ancient cultures could not understand the process of what they observed to be the sun flying through the sky each day. They were missing knowledge of key factors involved, such as gravity. To those cultures, this process was chaos. In the face of that chaos, they invented myths of flaming chariots and the like flying through the sky, manned by gods and elves and various lies. "ID" seems to me a parallel to this process, a myth, a lie caused by a failure to comprehend all applicable variables.

If god is perfect, he can't be flawed by consciousness.
 

Harte

Senior Member
Messages
4,562
Re: new theory...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"thenumbersix\")</div>
Is amazing how many people resort to the unknown intelligent influence to answer difficult questions. Why is it so hard to believe that the system we live in works because it does. Some of the astonishing things that actually physically happen are mind blowing enough to heap a lot of respect onto the Universe we live in and the Planet we live on...
[/b]

Six,
If you think about it, this is what humans have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years. Doubtful that this behavior will change anytime soon.

Harte
 

StarLord

Senior Member
Messages
3,187
Re: new theory...

If Intelligent Design was a reality, honest politics would be also.

Harte, Too bad you missed the heady days of debating whether Dark had a speed as Light did.
 

thenumbersix

Member
Messages
290
Re: new theory...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>
If Intelligent Design was a reality, ?honest politics would be also.

Harte, ?Too bad you missed the heady days of debating whether Dark had a speed as Light did.[/b]

have read some reference to this speed of dark before, sounds like a good debate, wasn't there a previous champion of the theory on the forum ?

cheers Harte, there is probably a reason why I couldn't make the connection. It seems to me that a lot of people who are arguing for these theories have had it equally drummed into them as we supposedly have evolution etc. 'drummed' into us.

Is nice to have the faculties to make an informed decision rather than have it told to me and having to sit and wait for some almighty diety to come down and give me the understanding at some undetermined point in the future.

You live and you learn....
 

Dmitri

Junior Member
Messages
89
Re: new theory...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"thenumbersix\")</div>
...It seems to me that a lot of people who are arguing for these theories have had it equally drummed into them as we supposedly have evolution etc. 'drummed' into us. ...[/b]
There are too few people to get drummed yet, actually. Dembsky has several degrees, off the top of my head, in mathematics, statistics and philosophy, all from top notch schools. He has had difficulties getting an academic tenure, because all drummed around him would not want him. Spetner is a world authority in information theory and statistics, he came to his conclusions on his own, because he has not been easily drummed and knew better. Orgel had worked almost all his life on biological origins; and what we have in textbooks on the primordial soup is mostly reflections on his early concepts, which he rejected later for good. Hoyle was among the least drummed on earth. So who are the drummers? Of cause, the situation is complicated by young earth creationists pushing their line, but this is not about educated people. This is about hard core evolutionists publicly trying to merge religious fundamentalists with those who prefer to think and stand their grounds.
 

Harte

Senior Member
Messages
4,562
Re: new theory...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>
If Intelligent Design was a reality, honest politics would be also.

Harte, Too bad you missed the heady days of debating whether Dark had a speed as Light did.[/b]

I did read that thread, Star. I don't remember if I realized at the time that it predated me. I think the lasts posts were coming in around the time I joined.

I think the idea of a "speed of dark" was somewhat original thinking, if totally unscientific. At the very least it showed that somebody was thinking in terms of the converse of certain scientific principles, which is an extremely useful tool of analysis, physical and mathematical, even if the method was improperly used in a completely useless way that was fated to be unproductive.

At the time I thought that it would be wrong to post a decent reply. It may have given more legitimacy to the thinking than was warrented. Plus I ejoyed reading the arguments. I later realized that there were many people here that thought about things in unscientific ways and that needed my guidance.:D

Harte

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Dmitri\")</div>
There are too few people to get drummed yet, actually. Dembsky has several degrees, off the top of my head, in mathematics, statistics and philosophy, all from top notch schools. He has had difficulties getting an academic tenure, because all drummed around him would not want him. Spetner is a world authority in information theory and statistics, he came to his conclusions on his own, because he has not been easily drummed and knew better. Orgel had worked almost all his life on biological origins; and what we have in textbooks on the primordial soup is mostly reflections on his early concepts, which he rejected later for good. Hoyle was among the least drummed on earth. So who are the drummers? Of cause, the situation is complicated by young earth creationists pushing their line, but this is not about educated people. This is about hard core evolutionists publicly trying to merge religious fundamentalists with those who prefer to think and stand their grounds. [/b]

Dimitri,

TN6 also said this in his post:

Is nice to have the faculties to make an informed decision rather than have it told to me and having to sit and wait for some almighty diety to come down and give me the understanding at some undetermined point in the future.
(My bolding)

Attempting to find evidence for ID is a scientific endeavor. Attributing the design to a deity or some other unprovable, untestable entity (Aliens, future civilizations, etc.) is not a scientific endeavor. Good luck with the former and phooey on the latter.

Harte
 

systemoftheuniverse

Junior Member
Messages
42
Re: new theory...

so light is part of an electron, and part of an electrons weight, but there is some magical barriar at the speed of light that changes light to have no weight? Maybe it's the way you think of gravity that leads you to believe that only light has the power to travel at the limit of the universe. After all you cannot use a lazer as a propulsion device, and I doubt you can use solar sails to catch light. But what happens when you shoot two lazers so they cross paths? No light is bouncing off other light showing that light is a dormant energy untill it is absorbed by other matter.

gravity is space being bent? How can this be caused? Space is the void of matter, or the limit of how far matter's energies extend. But space is really how a expression of time (time in action). It has no form to bend. This is where it's important to know if God created matter by pulling nothing apart to create the two opposites of matter and anti-matter. But then the fact that space and time are able to be manipulated (when by all logic they should be constants) shows that even they come from nothing (a side effect of matter being created). That means that before there was anything except the soul, everything traveled at the speed of light, and there was no space.

Now when the universe was created from nothing... Matter was pulled from anti matter, and this had two measurable side effects, space/time (cause you cannot effect one without effecting the other) and then pressure, witch is the main element in effecting matter. Gravity is a force without a cause. Gravity is a force without it's equal and opposite side effect.
 

thenumbersix

Member
Messages
290
Re: new theory...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
so light is part of an electron, and part of an electrons weight, but there is some magical barriar at the speed of light that changes light to have no weight? Maybe it's the way you think of gravity that leads you to believe that only light has the power to travel at the limit of the universe. After all you cannot use a lazer as a propulsion device, and I doubt you can use solar sails to catch light. But what happens when you shoot two lazers so they cross paths? No light is bouncing off other light showing that light is a dormant energy untill it is absorbed by other matter..

gravity is space being bent? How can this be caused? Space is the void of matter, or the limit of how far matter's energies extend. But space is really how a expression of time (time in action). It has no form to bend. This is where it's important to know if God created matter by pulling nothing apart to create the two opposites of matter and anti-matter. But then the fact that space and time are able to be manipulated (when by all logic they should be constants) shows that even they come from nothing (a side effect of matter being created). That means that before there was anything except the soul, everything traveled at the speed of light, and there was no space.

Now when the universe was created from nothing... Matter was pulled from anti matter, and this had two measurable side effects, space/time (cause you cannot effect one without effecting the other) and then pressure, witch is the main element in effecting matter. Gravity is a force without a cause. Gravity is a force without it's equal and opposite side effect.[/b]


SoU, some bold statements of assumption there..... Would anti-gravity fit into the description of an equal and opposing force to gravity ?
 

Harte

Senior Member
Messages
4,562
Re: new theory...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
so light is part of an electron, and part of an electrons weight, but there is some magical barriar at the speed of light that changes light to have no weight? Maybe it's the way you think of gravity that leads you to believe that only light has the power to travel at the limit of the universe. [/b]
Sou,
Light is not part of an electron. Light is made up of photons. Photons are the elementary particles from quantum mechanics that transmit certain forces in interactions between particles that interact through the transfer of those forces (by "certain forces" I mean the electromagnetic force and the weak nuclear force.)

If you remember your atomic model (the Bohr Atom), then you can visualize a nucleus surrounded by it's associated electron "cloud" (or orbits, depending on how long ago you were taught about this.) Electrons in the atom are arranged in a series of "shells", or energy levels. Electrons in the outermost shell have the highest energy levels, in the innermost they have the lowest. If you take an atom and heat it up, electrons in the atom are what absorbs the energy. When an electron absorbs enough energy, it will dissappear from it's energy level, or shell, and re-appear instantaneously in the energy level that is appropriate for the amount of energy it has absorbed. The electron does not belong in this higher energy shell, it creates an instability in the energy balance of the atom. So the electron releases it's extra energy in the form of a photon, dissappears, and reappears instantly back in the lower energy shell. (Releasing a photon is the way that an electron loses the extra energy, an electron has only this option.) The released photon leaves the atom. The mass of the electron remains unchanged throughout this process. What I have described here explains the glow you see when you burn wood (gases associated with tree sap make the flames, plus just regular air that has been heated), or heat metal until it glows. This is the association that photons (light) have with electrons. Photons are also associated with many other particles, though, not just electrons.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
After all you cannot use a lazer as a propulsion device, and I doubt you can use solar sails to catch light. [/b]

Your doubts notwithstanding, a solar sail has been successfully tested and shown to provide the necessary thrust.
more info at this link:http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/05/13/v...sion.solarsail/

Additionally, laser light has been shown to be sufficient to provide thrust to these types of sails. More info on this at these sites:
http://www.space.com/news/lasersail_000301.html
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~diedrich/cgi/...gi?forward%2C+r
http://www.solarsails.info/web/

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
But what happens when you shoot two lazers so they cross paths? No light is bouncing off other light showing that light is a dormant energy untill it is absorbed by other matter.[/b]

Normally, in clean air, laser light is invisible. If there is dust in the air, you can see some of the light because it is scattered (bounced off, in your words) by the particles of dust. Not being an expert on these matters, I would guess that some forms of light could possibly be scattered by other forms of light, but I have not heard of this happening. If one were to do this type of scattering in clean air, all you would see is the area of intersection, the beams would be invisible elsewhere. Light is not "a dormant energy", whatever that means. Everything is energy if you examine it at the quantum level. Light is made up of photons. Photons carry energy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
gravity is space being bent? How can this be caused? [/b]

This is rather deep and I'm not going to go into it here. It difficult enough to understand it at all, much less explain it. But if you really, really want to know, have at it:

http://www.physics.fsu.edu/Courses/Spring9...lRelativity.htm
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_s...ures/lec07.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
Space is the void of matter, or the limit of how far matter's energies extend. But space is really how a expression of time (time in action). It has no form to bend. This is where it's important to know if God created matter by pulling nothing apart to create the two opposites of matter and anti-matter. [/b]

Space is absolutely not the "void of matter". There is more space in you or me than matter.
What we call space is a construct of our minds. The universe is made of spacetime, not space, hence space is not an expression of time, space is a component of spacetime. What we call time is also such a component.
As to whether spacetime can be bent, I refer you to the two General Relativity links I posted above.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
But then the fact that space and time are able to be manipulated (when by all logic they should be constants) shows that even they come from nothing (a side effect of matter being created). That means that before there was anything except the soul, everything traveled at the speed of light, and there was no space.[/b]

Scientists are currently unable to describe the instant of the Big Bang. They certainly cannot describe any of the instants before the Big Bang occurred. But I would venture to guess that, there being no spacetime to travel in, very few entities traveled at the speed of light since they had nowhere to go in the first place.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"systemoftheuniverse\")</div>
Now when the universe was created from nothing... Matter was pulled from anti matter, and this had two measurable side effects, space/time (cause you cannot effect one without effecting the other) and then pressure, witch is the main element in effecting matter. Gravity is a force without a cause. Gravity is a force without it's equal and opposite side effect. [/b]

The creation of spacetime as a side effect of getting something from nothing is an interesting concept. After all, if you were to make matter and antimatter out of nothing, you would have to have someplace for them to be. Unfortunately, there has been no scientific description of the instant of the Big Bang as of yet, but M Theory could hold the answers.

Harte
 

systemoftheuniverse

Junior Member
Messages
42
Re: new theory...

when you turn a electromagnet on, is the speed the magnetic waves portrude far less then the speed of light? Because you could double this with repelling forces,.. would you still be far from the speed of light?

There must be some kind of energy that is purer then magnatism. Because deep space travel is possiable. It has to be possiable if God created this world for us.
 

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