Religion

Judge Bean

Senior Member
Messages
1,257
Religion

Years ago I read about an African tribe whose belief system revolved around tree spirits and magical stones. The spirits would tell you whether you should dig under that tree to find one of the stones, which were boulders of tremendous "medicine," as American Indians would say.

Well, the shaman told one man and his friends to dig under a certain tree, and they dug and dug all morning and came up empty-handed. The friends did not give up, and dug into the afternoon, but the man just sat there disillusioned. Exhausted and dirty, he just said "There are no magic stones."
 

StarLord

Senior Member
Messages
3,187
Religion

Ralan,

You have made not a single mistake in your viewpoint or your opinions regarding your faith. The fact that you were dissatisfied with the path you were brought up on speaks volumes. You have made a decision to seek other answers as the ones you were provided with fell short. That is normal. The fact that you have set a groundwork or foundation of ideas for you to start working with at such an early age is highly commendable. Do not become dismayed or impatient nor ever compare yourself with others that seem to be "ahead" of you. That is a waste of energy and time.

We are all on the path seeking answers to those inner questions and there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between you and another person that has been on the path for thousands of years. Remember this for it will save you alot of unnecessary self flagelation in the future. You are exactly where you are meant to be in your enfoldment.

Each and every step you take is your own. There will be times where you can use others' information as a guidepost or ruler if you will, to measure by but remember again, your path is yours and it is not written in stone that you will experience exactly the same thing as they do and vicea versa

You will note from year to year that your ideas change as your awareness and consciousness grows. This is very normal. Keeping a journal for both conscious / awake ideas as well as a Dream journal cannot be stressed enough. These journals, especialy your dream journal is of vast importance as it will someday be your guide and dictionary to the dream state.

I commend you on your veracity and courage to share your current state with us, you are doing quite well my friend. Keep up the good work!!

I cannot stress enough the importance of taking your time and not forcing this because of a few things. Spiritual enfoldment cannot be rushed because the door to soul opens inward, not outward. If you try to force too much information upon your self in too short a time you experience a type of spiritual gluttony. No problem, take a break of a month or so. A good anology is having way to many kippers for breakfast. They are not bad for you, but if you over indulge the signals of having too much in a short period of time are unmistakable. This is actualy a good thing for you to experience on two levels, one for you and one for others that read this thread.

For you, it's good so you can experience one of the spiritual laws here without any confusion or doubt. You stuffed too much information of a sort that is not to be stuffed in that type of haste. This has created confusion in your world and the experience of the result is real, not imagined. Congradulations!! You have just proved that it is possible to experience first hand, one of the spiritual laws. In my book you get A for effort and All is well, take a short break.

For others, unless you experience the same thing, had I pointed out that there was such a thing as Spiritual Gluttony and it's aspects, it would have been moot at best. As you can see, until we experience for ourselves, it is still in the realm of conjecture and has not become real for us. Experience is the only coin of this realm that matters.

Experience is the ONLY thing we check out with when we go to the next step. unfortunately we can't bring the blue suede shoes with us when we go.
 

Grayson

Conspiracy Cafe
Messages
1,117
Religion

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon@Jul 30 2004, 06:21 AM
Years ago I read about an African tribe whose belief system revolved around tree spirits and magical stones. The spirits would tell you whether you should dig under that tree to find one of the stones, which were boulders of tremendous \"medicine,\" as American Indians would say.

Well, the shaman told one man and his friends to dig under a certain tree, and they dug and dug all morning and came up empty-handed. The friends did not give up, and dug into the afternoon, but the man just sat there disillusioned. Exhausted and dirty, he just said \"There are no magic stones.\"


Very clever. :D
 

Grayson

Conspiracy Cafe
Messages
1,117
Religion

Just to conclude my cerebral POV here, I offer the following up for rumination:

The Existence of God

Discussions regarding religion often revolve around the question: Does god exist? What do we mean when we say that something exists? As far as human beings are concerned, nothing exists unless it manifests itself in some form, shape or manner to man or to his extended sensory perceptions.

If something is claimed to exist but does not impinge on man in any way whatsoever, we can safely say that it does not exist as far as human existence is concerned. This undefined mirage may still exist somewhere in the universe or another universe. However, since this alleged object or event does not manifest itself to us, it does not affect us in any way whatsoever and we must simply state that it does not exist.

Religious people argue that, although they cannot positively prove that god exists, the atheists cannot prove that god does not exist. This argument embodies several fallacies.

It is logically impossible to prove that an object or event does not exist. However, it is not only possible but is exceedingly common to prove that something does exist. If something exists, it manifests itself to us by objective evidence. It is also axiomatic in the affairs of man, and steeped in common sense that, whoever makes a claim, has to prove its validity. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, like alleged Time Travellers have discovered.

Whoever might claim that the moon is made of green cheese has to prove that the moon actually consists of green cheese, instead of rock, as established by previous, hard, factual, objective evidence. It is logically impossible and nonsensical to demand that, whoever does not accept the claim that the moon is made of green cheese, should disprove it.

Only persons, who do not utilize logic, will accept as true statements that are completely unsupported by factual evidence. Yet, this form of irrationality and lack of fundamental logic is the foundation of all religions. Since approximately 80 % of the world population accepts the completely unsubstantiated statements of various religions, 80 % of the world population suffers from a severely distorted and ineffective worldview in this argument.

Christian dogma expects people to believe the fairy tale of Noah?s ark, although it is patently impossible to squeeze even samples of all the world?s animals into one small ark. Rational persons consider such stories as ludicrous and yet, such is the power of religion, that the majority of the people on earth accept such fairytales as facts.

The bible account of the creation of man and the universe, as outlined in the Book of Genesis, is so much in contradiction with irrefutable facts that a rational person cannot help but laugh about such fantasies. It may be all right for children to believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but adults are supposed to outgrow such fairytales

Where was the Jewish God Jehovah, when Hitler incinerated five million of his chosen people; where was the Buddha when Truman vaporized 250,000 Japanese women and children; where was the Christian God when Stalin killed thirty million human beings?

It defies rationality when religious persons pray to these same gods for individualized help and salvation.

Pascal's Wager

Another favorite statement by religious philosophers refers to Pascal?s Wager. Pascal was an eminent seventeenth century mathematician who struggled with the contradictions presented by Christian theology.

His wager consists of the statement: It is advantageous to believe in god because the worst thing that can happen is that you have spent your life believing in something that is untrue and you will end up just as dead as everyone else will. However, if you do not believe in god and if god actually exists, then god?s actual existence will matter in the extreme because you will be in big trouble with Him. Which tends to be a common, if secretive view of Religion and God.

The problem with Pascal?s wager lies in the reality hat a person cannot pretend to believe in God just for the sake of a wager. The obvious insincerity in pretending a belief in God for the purpose of a wager makes an actual belief in God impossible.

Theologians have used Pascal?s wager to admonish people to believe in God, just in case. This situation justifies the old definition of theologians as persons who are looking in a coal-bin on a dark night for a black cat that is not there.

The Epicurean Postulate

It is pointless to get involved in endless discussions regarding the existence or non-existence of god and his moral qualities. Such nonsensical and unproductive discussions have raged for the last three thousand years.

One of the problems in theism, the belief system involving a personal god, revolves around the existence of evil and the resulting inconsistency in the concept of an omnipotent god.

The mere existence of evil in this world makes the existence of a benign god impossible: If god were omnipotent, he could eliminate evil and if he were benign, he would want to do so. Furthermore, if god were all-good, as he is supposed to be, he could not sin. However, if he were all-powerful, he could sin.

The Greek philosopher Epicurus illuminated this dilemma in 300 BC:


If God is willing to prevent evil but is not able to prevent evil, then he is not omnipotent.

If God is able to prevent evil but is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not benevolent.

Evil is either in accordance with God?s intention or contrary to it.

Thus, either God cannot prevent evil or he does not want to prevent evil.


Therefore, it follows that God is either not omnipotent or he is not benevolent. He cannot be both omnipotent and benevolent.

The Rock Lifting Paradox

If the Epicurean argument does not suffice in pointing out the inherent contradictions in the concept of a god, there remains the somewhat provocative and hilarious Rock Lifting Paradox: Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? If we assume the common definition of omnipotence, we encounter a contradiction: If God was omnipotent, he should be able to do create such a rock but then he cannot lift the rock and his omnipotence breaks down.

This thought experiment makes it logically and factually untenable to claim the existence of any allegedly omnipotent God. This paradox creates a dire dilemma: Who would really want or need a God who is not omnipotent, a god who would not be able to change the laws of the universe on behalf of a sinful supplicant? This paradox does not prove or disprove anything in itself, but it does point out the inherent logical impossibility of the existence of an omnipotent God.

Conclusion: The Existence of God

Religious people pursue their religion because they have blocked their rationality in all matters pertaining to religion. They are impervious to the contradictions, logical inconsistencies and other obstacles to the existence of a personal, omnipotent god. They need an omnipotent, omniscient god to lean on. They prefer to walk through life with blinders so that the harsh facts of Reality will not frighten them.

There is no need to prove or disprove the existence of god or gods. The mere fact that no god has ever manifested himself in any form, shape or manner, eliminates any reliance we can place on him or any attention we need to pay to him.

As far as modern man is concerned, gods or other supposedly omnipotent beings never have and do not now interact with man. As far as we, as human beings, are concerned, gods do not exist because they do not manifest themselves to us or interact with us.

For the sake of argument, some people suggest that gods may exist in some other universe or plane of existence where we cannot be aware of them. However, as long as these nebulous, hidden gods do not interact with human beings in our universe, we need not concern ourselves with such extra-celestial god or gods.

In order to prove the existence of gods and other super-natural beings, adherents of religions have often been suggested that some people hear voices or see visions involving ethereal superior beings, gods, angels, virgins, the dear departed and other ephemeral appearances.

Photography has been available for the last 150 years. However, nobody has ever captured an image of God or of any other supernatural mirages. If these phantoms cannot even re-arrange a few electrons by leaving an impression on photographic film, how are they going to interact with us or help us?

Miracles

Where are the miracles that gods can supposedly perform? There has never been any objective evidence of a single miracle. Religious belief systems routinely claim miracles. Alas, not even a shred of objective evidence has ever supported an alleged miracle. Miracles cannot possibly occur in reality because they would violate or modify firmly established natural laws of the universe, such as gravity, time or entropy.

After horrendous disasters or personal calamities, religious people always thank god for the miracle of saving them or helping them. If god is omnipotent, he could have prevented the disaster before it struck. Since he did not prevent the disaster, he obviously hurt his believer on purpose.

Miracles and other reversals of natural laws supposedly occur merely at the whim of a god who is clearly non-existent and non-omnipotent. With modern recording devices, scientists can expose any sham, almost instantly. Since the advent of objective recording devices, there have been no claims for miracles.

The Equivocation of Deism/Pantheism

We have concerned ourselves with supernatural events or beings that supposedly interact with human beings on the individual level. Another definition of God deals with the concept that a Superior Being created the universe, that he set the stars in motion and then relaxed and stood back, presumably somewhere in the infinity of interstellar space.

This is the popular view of god as the Clockmaker: He built and wound up the universe. Now the machinery is just running down without further intervention by Him, and He is not paying the slightest attention to human affairs.

This impersonal, pantheistic or deistic view of the universe is popular with agnostics. Persons who find it rationally unacceptable to believe in a personal god hold or pretend to hold this view. This approach is favored by closet-atheists and by many agnostics. Jefferson, Washington and a multitude of other politicians utilized the deistic viewpoint extensively because they needed an affiliation with religion and gods in order to be politically acceptable to the religious masses.

The deistic approach to religion represents a failure to face a simple issue honestly and squarely. Who needs a god who blissfully stands back in a dark corner of the universe, ignoring the pleas of his subjects? Religious persons need a God to provide them with miracles. They cry to God and expect help.

The Origins of God and the Universe

Another dilemma that frequently arises in discussions of religion revolves around the origin of God and the universe. If God made the universe, as he is claimed to have done, who or what created God? Did God create himself? Religious persons find it exceedingly difficult to answer this question.

Lacking a rational response, they phrase their reply in the simplistic question, "God must have made the universe. If God did not make the universe, who or what created it?" Thus, they evade the issue and place the burden of proof on the person who asked the question.

Only one answer is possible in response to this question: Nobody knows who made this alleged god, but it certainly could not have been another god. Otherwise, the god-creating god would be the real god, instead of the god whom he created.

Another favorite response to the question of who made god tries to stipulate that God has always existed. Therefore, there was no need to create god. This argument is somewhat circular. Nobody has ever proven that god exists, much less that he has always existed. We will concern ourselves with the creation of god after somebody has factually established that god even exists.

Maybe man will never know the conundrum of the creation of the universe. Maybe he will at some distant time in the future. However, ordinary human beings do not need an answer to this question because any answer would be irrelevant to human existence and happiness. Whatever we may find, it is extremely unlikely that the ultimate answer to the secrets of the universe will reveal a God with a flowing white beard who answers human prayers.

We can find an interesting insight in the scientific aspect of this question in the inflation theory. This theory tries to explain the cause of the Big Bang in terms of the destruction of the total symmetry of the original vacuum by a quantum fluctuation. Well, maybe. This answer is just as incomprehensible as the creation of a non-existent god.

Understanding the creation of the universe and knowing what lies on the other side of the Big Bang does not have the slightest effect on our happiness. We enhance our happiness, our emotional state of well being, by minimizing pain and by maximizing our alignment with Objective Reality, by understanding how life really works

Human beings do not live in the fairyland of religious speculation. Neither do human beings live in the world of quantum particles, relativity and cosmology. We merely need to know how life actually works on the human plane, in the world we live in. We can accomplish this objective by trying to enhance our factual understanding of the nature of Reality, without blinkers imposed on us by religion.

Atheism

Religious persons sometimes claim that atheism is merely another belief system, similar to any other religion. This assertion is due to a lack of understanding of semantic concepts. The word belief is similar to the concept of faith because it implies mental acceptance of something as true in the absence of firm evidence.

A belief is a vague idea supported only by the confidence that people place in it. If people have to resort to a belief in something, they have doubts regarding the veracity of what they believe in. If we know something to be a fact, we do not say that we believe in it. If people know the facts of a situation, they have no need for beliefs.

Atheists pronounce themselves skeptics or atheists, not because they adhere to a furtive belief system of not believing in god, but because gods do not exist. Gods do not exist in view of the indisputable fact that no god has ever manifested himself to a human being. The atheistic worldview is not a belief system because it does not rely on beliefs in unsupported claims. The atheistic worldview insists on objective evidence.

Much has been made of reports of alleged cures where God miraculously healed a repentant sinner. The purported miracle, lacking objective evidence, was more than likely attributable to luck or to other natural causes. It is a fact that people very often do get better with the help of their immune systems. If the poor sinner had died, as many sinners and non-sinners do, there would have been no miracle.

If our appeals to our God are successful and if He seems to solve our problem, he gets credit for his miracles he works. However, if he does not resolve our predicament, religious persons blame his lack of cooperation on insufficient prayer, the unworthiness of the supplicant, the lack of proper sacrifices, or the inscrutable ways of god.

Such situations arise frequently when human survival is threatened. Persons, who pray to God and who survive a pending calamity, sing hymns of praise to Him for answering their prayer. However, those persons who perished, although they prayed just as hard, are no longer available to blame Him for his failure to save their lives.

In acts of courage and defiance, many men have cursed the gods but the gods did not strike them with lightening, or anything else. Man has ignored the gods and they, in turn, have ignored him. Atheists have to help themselves and solve their problems without the delusion of divine intervention.

Atheists struck a deal with God: We will not bother you, if you will not bother us. They mocked god and nothing happened to them, because god does not exist. If he actually does exist, he cannot or does not want to punish atheists. In either case, he does not respond to prayers or to curses.

Without a god or gods, religion becomes meaningless and prayer becomes an empty delusion. What is prayer, but the appeal to nonexistent supernatural beings, to upset the laws of the universe on behalf of an admittedly unworthy sinner? Of course, in order to rely on prayer, a believer must have faith.

The word faith means to accept something as true without evidence and in contradiction to established facts. Otherwise, no reliance on faith, on unverified religious dogma, would be required: People need not have faith in gravity or other objective facts; people need to have faith only when they face an otherwise unacceptable falsehood. Faith is the unconditional acceptance of the impossible.

As man evolved, the survival benefits of a belief in the supernatural have decreased. In the third millennium, in this age of science and enlightenment, survival increasingly depends on increased rationality. The previous century has seen an overwhelming increase in scientific and technological knowledge. The ability of an individual to deal rationally, instead of emotionally, with his environment, has shifted survival benefits from the irrational and emotional arena to the rational and scientific domain.

In prior millennia, men like Socrates and Aristotle lacked the basic tools of knowledge and science to develop a clear view of Reality. They were groping in the dark for small kernels of truth. Since then, man?s scientific knowledge has increased by a factor of millions, with regard to both the quality and the quantity of information accessible to him.

A rational, scientific person is able to align himself with Objective Reality, with truth, more appropriately than a religious person is who is relying on prayers to nonexistent gods. A person with rational thought processes is more likely to achieve his desired objectives, including enhanced survival and lasting happiness, than a person relying on prayer.

Adherents of religions often refer to the emotional benefits of reliance on miracles, on life after death, or on other illusory benefits offered by organized religion. They advance the idea that a person will benefit emotionally from such childish illusions although they are clearly distortions of reality. This stance defies common sense since it presumes that irrationality can be superior to rationality in any aspect of life and under any circumstances whatsoever.

The only exception to this rule might apply to religious persons on their deathbed. They may emotionally benefit from a childish belief in a life after death because it facilitates the pain of their departure. Moribund persons no longer need to concern themselves with objective evidence, as the basis for achieving desired results. Their view of reality is no longer oriented towards achieving desired results. They can afford to indulge in dreams of a better life to come, without further adverse effects.

No matter what Henry James says in his "Varieties of Religious Experience", or what Otto calls the Numinous, the fact remains that quackery of any kind, whether medical or religious, remains quackery and can never be as efficacious as hard science. Marx had many faults but he was correct when he stated, "Religion is the opiate of the masses". This pronouncement extends to all forms of superstition, magic and the supernatural.

Religious Beliefs

A rational examination of the origins and sources of religion, as well as the benefits and disadvantages of religion, is unlikely to change the mind of anyone who is afraid to examine these concepts objectively.

People who approach the subject of religion with trepidation or who cannot distinguish between reality and superstition, find it difficult to apply logic to their thought processes. It is much easier to believe in miracles and pseudo-science than to acquire facts and engage in incisive, rational thought.

We can observe many members of society who appear to be intelligent and rational in the pursuit of their daily life. However, on Sundays they go to their church or temple. There they participate in incomprehensible and irrational rituals involving magic, prayer and other activities demeaning to their rational minds. Their rational mind tells them that a god does not exist and yet, there they sit and pray to him.

It has been suggested that religious people compartmentalize their thought processes in order to avoid otherwise inevitable and destructive conflicts. In this manner, rational and irrational thought processes can coexist in separate, locked compartments of the brain without connectivity. Yet, one wonders if there is some inevitable leakage from the irrational to the rational compartment, surreptitiously contaminating rationality.

Even some bright people may feel too frightened to face life without the consolations of a religion, cult or sect. Their upbringing has imbued in them the belief that it is safer not to subject the teachings of one?s church or temple or mosque to close scrutiny. Furthermore, becoming an agnostic or atheist can cut one off from the comfort and companionship of co-believers in a religion. This potentially damaging consequence of doubting one?s belief system is a strong deterrent to questioning deeply imbedded religious beliefs.

Religion may also satisfy an irrational human need for cosmic significance. Some persons yearn to be more than the grain of sand in the vastness of the universe that man really is. As long as men and women feel week and insignificant in the face of awe-inspiring natural forces, logic will not be as important as religion and man will prefer the sanctuary of imaginary, all-powerful beings.

Thus, people tend to associate in communities of like-minded people. Believers restrict their circle of friend and family to other believers. They surround themselves with mirror images of themselves.

If people wear blinders successfully, then the young and na?ve among them hear nothing but the desired belief. No reputable person in his or her sphere of life ever disagrees with or objects to the tenets of their common belief system. As time goes on, people in a mentally incestuous society consider it normal that all seemingly intelligent people believe as the community believes.

When a believer encounters non-believers, the shock may be great. The believer asks, "How can they not believe? Doesn?t everyone believe?" The believing community usually provides a convenient answer to that question: The non-believers are evil or they are possessed by an evil power. If you hang around them enough it might be contagious.

As a result, the believer becomes paranoid and afraid of non-believers, because he fails to understand that non-believers do not need to believe in anything. Non-believers rely on reason, logic and the factual evidence of the real world.

Instead, the believer sees non-believers as abnormal and undesirable. Thus, religious belief maintains itself through self-affirmation, insulation and demonization of non-believers.

Religion and Intelligence

It is interesting to note that the degree of involvement with the supernatural, including religion, is directly proportional to the degree of factual knowledge available to a person. The bell curve, depicting the graphic display of variances in intelligence within a population, places 80% of the U. S. population in the I.Q. range from 85 to 115.

It is interesting to note that 90 % of the U. S. population is also involved in religions or other belief systems. The September 1999 issue of the prestigious Scientific American magazine published a repeat-survey, confirming previous surveys:

Whereas 90% of the general population has a distinct belief in a personal god and a life after death, only 40% of scientists on the B.S. level favor these beliefs in religion and merely 10% of notable scientists believe in a personal god or in an afterlife. Contrary to the notion fostered by so-called creation-scientists, Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal god.

THE BENEFITS AND HORRORS OF RELIGION

Ever since man started praying to gods, religion has grown as an institutional power. Until the eighteenth century, the Age of Enlightenment, religion had organized itself into the dominant power governing all spiritual and secular affairs of man. Prior to 1700 AD, all affairs of society were under the domination of religious hierarchies.

In the process of wielding its enormous power, religious institutions have held the human race in a vice-grip of irrationality and have made every conceivable effort to suppress rationality and science. Only in 1998 did the Roman Catholic Church admit its error when it condemned Galileo in 1543 for pronouncing that the earth revolved around the sun, instead of having the sun revolve around the earth as demanded by the Bible.

Only the complete absurdity of its position forced the Pope to admit grudgingly that there might be some validity to the theory of evolution. He then explained the previous lapse by proclaiming that God had arranged for evolution to take place.

Evolution is a scientific fact and a Law of Nature. Evolution is not a theory any more than the Theory of Relativity is a theory. Institutional religion has oppressed rationality and has held humankind in a devastating chokehold for more than 2000 years.

We will gain nothing by describing the horrors that religions have inflicted on humanity in the name of their gods. From the crusades and the inquisition, to its devastating cooperation with the aristocracy in fettering and enslaving man?s body and man?s mind, religion has taken a heavy toll on humankind and on rationality

The horrors of religious institutions are now obsolete and part of the past. As we enter the third millennium, the power of religious institutions is waning, albeit far from dead. The influence of organized religion on the affairs of man is declining steadily. This development is due to such events as the French Revolution, the United States Constitution and the inevitable spread of democracy as the only political system compatible with freedom and the innate nature of man.

Man still interacts with religious institutions on the individual level but the political power of the church over the affairs of man has disappeared, with the temporary exception of a few Islamic nations.

This drastic change in societal power struggles was a product of the Age of Enlightenment. This step up the ladder of evolution was the result of the rational intellect of a new breed of philosophers like Voltaire, Rousseau and Locke. Their visions of a social contract replaced the institutions of feudalistic and religious slavery.

The advances in the enlightenment of man over the last five hundred years were pioneered by a few intellectual giants and by a small minority of rational, intelligent philosophers, scientists and visionary firebrands. A large majority of humanity still goes to church on Sunday, fears its gods and prays for salvation

The masses of men remain emotion-driven animals that have yet to throw off the shackles of religious irrationality. The man who goes to church and prays to god is still carrying the demon of religion on his back.

The next step in the evolution of man must wait until the mass of men has evolved to a higher plane. Intellectual freedom and honesty will allow man?s rational mind to exert its full powers and will enable man to assert a higher degree of control over his primitive emotional system

Please remeber, this is not a personal POV, rather a cerebral argument for debate.

I conclude this piece of work------------------------------------
Grayson-----------------------------------------------------------
 

StarLord

Senior Member
Messages
3,187
Religion

You have missed the last avenue of the spiritual paths. The living path whereby under the guidance of a living master that has the ability to teach you both here and now and in the inner planes. This is not a result of drugs, psycosis, or mental aberation of any sort. It just is. There are a few paths out there exactly like this dealing with the sound and light on the inner planes. It is very possible to gain what the christians refer to as Heaven and go beyond while still living. One need not die to acheive this. IMHO
 

deepthought

Member
Messages
166
Religion

Ralan, you are on the right path, take your time, It has taken me many years to arrive at my present view of the truths and lies of the world, and I may be wide of the mark, and probably am. We all have our own perceptions of the truth.

Regarding the origins of God or Gods from the human perspective.
They were members of a race called the Annunaki, who came 'from the skies' some 30,000+ years ago and lived in what is now central Iraq. They had a life span of around 800 or so years, and imparted their wisdom to us by way of direct breeding. In a previous post I mentioned the writings of Laurence Gardner. Much of the origins are in his books.

On a lighter note...The non existence of God.

An extract from the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy.

The Babel Fish.

The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier, but from those around it. It absorbes all unconcious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the concious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them.
The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

'Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the npn-existance of God.'

'The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguements
you dont. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear" says God "I hadn't thought of that." and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
' "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore, goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.....

...Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more, and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

:huh:
 

Phoenix

Active Member
Messages
631
Religion

Ah Grayson...

First: A proof of God (though not a proof of the Bible)

We really can not be sure of anything in life, not even death or taxes. Death may be only an illusion that we wake up from this life. Taxes are a man made invention that is dependent on the man made concept of money. We can not even be sure of that which we see and touch. The idea of a material world that lays outside of our senses and that does not have any thoughts of it's own and is entirely passive is the most irrational idea of mankind. The idea of such materialism is filled with contradictions and leaves one knowing nothing and trusting no logic. What can be known with certainty is our own subjective experience. Since our own spirit is the rational and logical basis of certainty, we must use it as a model of explaining the world we find ourselves in and understanding the nature of the universe.

Where did we come from? Yes biologically we have parents and it is true enough that our bodies came from them. This is not what matters though. The subjective experience matters far more, especially if hopefully that experience continues despite having a body. Where did this subjective experience come from. It may be postulated and theorized that various chemicals, hormones, neurons and dendrites are responsible for what we experience. That speculation starts to break down when that subjective experience starts to experience things that biologically don't pass through the five senses. The earnest nature of belief in "body only" becomes apparent when such everyday "extra sensory" experiences are actively suppressed by those who seek to impose their belief structures on people. The idea that the mind begins and ends in the brain is only a belief system though. It is a belief system that is threatened by facts and evidence of reality. From these out of body experiences we can establish that spirit is something other than body. Body is only something that the spirit uses like clothes. So we must ask, from where does spirit come. Fundamentally how did life begin?

If we follow the logic of biology we came from a mother, and she from a mother, and so on backwards. We are left with a logical conclusion there must be a great mother of all life, well that at least it is life from which life comes from.

This is not the same thing as a great architect, nor a perfect being. There are various suggestions that it is a great architect and it is a perfect being. The beauty and refreshing potency of nature and certain aspects of humanity can give one faith of such a great architect. Such a nature of goodness and beauty is knowable to the human mind. The human mind desires more of it in it's life, it gives meaning to human life. This truth, beauty, and goodness are but touches of God in life. So is the inner will to preserve, refine, and improve it. This God no religion has a monopoly of but all religions seek to worship.

Responding to The Epicurean Postulate and The Rock Lifting Paradox:

If this God exists how can events like Hiroshima and the Holocaust be allowed to happen? God's relation to us is like a father to a son. He wants us to do well and succeed but knows that in order for us to really learn, we must come to things on our own terms. Because of his perfection he is not allowed to help us until we want his help and are ready to receive his help. It is possible to perceive of such perfection and resolved principle as not truly benevolent or not truly omnipotent. It is also possible to perceive a rainbow in a waterfall as a waste of resources.
The physical laws that govern the universe also apply to God. In the same manner that King Arthur could not go against his own laws to defend the honor of his wife. If you think this makes God weak or not truly all powerful. You are correct in a sense, but keeping ones word and following principles is a great show of spiritual strength.

Logic of Atheism:

It is true a person acting on logic can not hold as unquestioningly true a thing which has not factual support. It is also true that a person acting on reason can not hold as unquestioningly false a thing which has no factual refutation. Atheism tries to claim itself as the espouser of reason, logic, and science. Science is an endeavor not a salvation. Logic is as weak as the assumptions that it is based on. Reason is hopelessly flawed by the limitations of collection and prone to error of data collection. It is possible to prove a negative. I can prove I was not in France if I prove I was in America. I can prove that an apple in my bag does not exist if I open up my bag to show it is empty. It is not always easy to prove the existence of a thing. I don't think I could prove the HDR that Opmmur lent me but that I no longer have. I don't think I can prove that I ate a pear yesterday.

Technology and spirit:

The age of multimedia and recording equipment in the hands of the general population has not stopped the ghost hunters of the word. Photographs of orbs and ectoplasm have been recorded on an on going basis around the world where digital cameras and camcorders can record the haunts.
http://www.ghostweb.com/free.html
Electronic voice phenomena have had many recordings of voices from the beyond. Measurements of temperatures dropping by twenty degrees have been recorded. Electromagnetic disturbances are signs of psychokinetic activity.

Conclusion:

Atheist is nothing more than the extreme form of Protestantism. It is just a reaction to the nonsense and bigotry that is involved in the belief structure of "going to church". The thing is, there is something there in terms of more than the flesh, and mankind is scared to deal with it rationally. Thus they hide behind dogma or "science" and seek an explanation for it all. We are but children in this great world. The simple messages of love and trust are as powerful as they claim to be, and much more simple than we try to make them out.
 

StarLord

Senior Member
Messages
3,187
Religion

Beautiful Phoenix, just Beautiful. This is the kind of post after reading where one says to one self, "Man, I wish I wrote that, because it echoes the noise going on inside me".


Grayson my friend, I hear the pain you hold in your words. Mate, we are here for you. Rail against the winds as much as you feel necessary, we will be here.
Crush your grief and harry your doubts as the waves of a thousand years seek to level the obdurate granite rocks on the beach, we will be here. Would that I could hand you all my knowledge to surcrease and asuage your pain, you have but to ask my friend.

This may sound like nothing to you, but I ask you to ponder this for a while for its meaning is a key that can open many doors for you. : Without knowing, we come here with all the Answers already inside us and without knowing, we actualy seek the Questions to unlock all that we already hold. The answers you seek rest within you.

Grayson, the one thing that I can share with you right now is:
There is but a single thought for you to hold at this moment, it's the fact that you are Certainly Not Alone, I am here, We are here for you.
 

Ralan

Member
Messages
361
Religion

A few ideas.

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Science:

Science is man's perception and understanding of everything. It is as closely bonded with him if not more than his mammalistic nature. Sentiency and science are in a sense two parts of a whole, in another a family with sentiency as parent and science as offspring. Everything in the universe, as long as we observe it and try to understand it, is a scientific subject. Even religion can be defined as a science.

Two Perceptions:

The defined universe, the universe as vector. This is the generally religious perspective. The universe's point of creation is definable, sentiency in the universe is a balanced force, with a guiding force (God) and a following force (man), and the universe's point of destruction is definable (apocalypse).

The open universe, the universe as scalar. This is the generally atheistic perspective. We can attempt to calculate to point at which the universe was born, but until we have complete proof that the universe was created at all (which is impossible because we would have to witness the birth by existing before the universe itself), the universe may never have been born at all, or could have been born at any time. Sentiency is a single force, striving unguided for better understanding of the universe. The universe's point of destruction can be guessed at, but can never be proven unless we witness it (which is impossible because by the time the universe is completely gone, we no longer exist to observe its non-existance).

Strength when faced with No God

A human is not emotionally strong enough to fully face the fact that there is no God or greater force. We can admit to the complete lack of evidence for a god or any supernatural entity, and define ourselves as atheists, but we can never fully comprehend our complete aloneness an fragility. There are two reasons that this may be so:

- God created man and saw no reason to give him the ability to comprehend God's non-existance, as God clearly does exist because he's doing the creating.

- Evolution did not provide man with the ability to comprehend God's non-existence because it is not neccessary for his survival; evolution itself does not know that it has made man sentient and therefore in need of that ability, because evolution is not sentient itself and sentiency was an accident.
 

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