the cause of the 2036 "unix problem"

[outspoken]

Has anyone noticed some big certificates expire in 2035 and 2036? If you install windows it installs root certificates issued by Microsoft that expire in 6/23/2035 and 3/22/2036 - march 22nd being close to the day John Titor "left" to go back to the future.

Most Microsoft components such as Windows, Exchange, require certificates because everything is digitally signed to prevent tampering by the bad guys, and hobbyist. Microsoft doesnt want to lose control of their products. However if there was a nuclear war and the Microsoft certificate CA is blown to bits there would be no way of issuing new certs and the existing ones would expire which would cause a lot of chaos with computer systems - Windows might not even boot up because it wont be able to verify the integrity of the OS.

Sounds like John Titor's "unix problem". These certs were issues in 2011 and 2010. Wouldnt be that hard to visit that year and make a copy of Microsofts root CA so you could issue new certs...

 

[paradox404]

Unix and Windows are 2 completely different things, besides if Microsoft wants to shot themselves in the foot then thats their problem, linux has ability to be able to be modified fairly quickly if something goes wrong, so its not too big a deal if you can't boot Windows because of this.
.
Although I remember reading somewhere that the UNIX 2038 bug was fixed, not sure how true it was though.

 

[Num7]

The Unix 2038 bug has been fixed for a while. It had to do with the timestamp's variable not being large enough to handle dates beyond Feb. 13 2038. Only very old Unix systems that weren't updated, but somehow managed to survive and are still in operation in 2038 will crash then.

I never thought about MS's certificates. It's true that many of them are issued to expire in 2036. I don't expect to find any special or groundbreaking reason though.

 

[paradox404]

I though that was the case, I wonder how the Older Unix computers survived though, perhaps it has something to do with Older machines being built to last for longer that modern computers.

I had I think about why Microsoft would do that with the certificates, the reason I came up with is that they would fairly obsolete by then, and the security updates would be discontinued as well, therefore it is a anti-feature to make sure you stay sort of close to their latest OS line up (Making sure you by Windows 12 if they still exist). However I don't expect that it would cause any issues after 2036, as I have Windows 95/98/XP machines with completely outdated certificates, and they still run normally.

 

[outspoken]

Where did i say Unix was the same as Windows? It's obvious parados404 doesnt understand how windows works. I used to work for Microsoft. I supported windows 95/98, and helped launch windows xp on oct 25th, 2001. I was one of 300 people to launch windows xp. Some of the bugs i found were fixed in later versions of Windows, and some articles i wrote are still on Microsoft's page. I currently work in IT and have a good understanding of technology.

Saying your windows 98 machine would work without certificates is very ignorant because those versions of windows had very little reliance on certificates. It wasnt until Windows Vista that you have to have core system files signed in order for the system to boot. That's also the version Microsoft introduced the TPM, or trusted platform module.

If you install Windows 8 it comes with built in certificates that are issued by Microsoft. Every core OS file used by Windows is digitally signed by a catalog (.cat) file. If the .cat files are missing, or your system date is really wrong, you will run into a lot of issues.

These core certificates are issued for very long time periods such as 20 years. The assumption is in 20 years you will either not be using Windows 8, or Microsoft will issue a new certificate to replace it. But if there's a nuclear war and no new computers are made, or operating systems, then 20 years from now people might be using the same pc's with the same OS as today, with expired certificates.

The certificates issue also brings up an issue that im sure no one has even talked about. If there was *any* bug in 2036 that needed to be fixed in windows, you would have to do the following:

1) You would need the source code to windows (or whatever OS that needs patching)
2) You would need the original certificate and key to digitally sign the file, as windows does not allow unsigned core OS files - the pc might not even boot
3) You would then need to create a patch and distribute it

The point here is the windows source code is confidential and is private, and the original certificate and key used to sign files is private. If there was a nuclear war you would not be able to make patches for windows, and maybe other OS. Yes, you could install linux on computers currently using windows, but good luck finding drivers in a would destroyed by nuclear war with no internet.

You guys are also assuming he just meant unix and not derivatives. Iphones run on IOS, which is derived from Unix. Apples Mac OS is based on Unix. Linux of course is derived from Unix. Many appliances run Linux or a *nix OS. Routers often run a propriety os based on Unix. Power stations probably run a variety of Unix or Linux. To say nothing would be running unix in 2036 is to say there would be no routers, no iphones, no linux machines, etc.

A very good example of what i am talking about is this

Mr. Crain ran his security test on his open-source DNP3 program and didn’t find anything wrong. Frustrated, he tested a third-party vendor’s program to make sure his software was working. The first program he targeted belonged to Triangle MicroWorks, a Raleigh, North Carolina based company that sells source code to large vendors of S.C.A.D.A. systems. It broke instantly.

So he tested an open protocol and found no problems. But when he tested vendors implementation of that protocol he found a lot of problems. What this means is even if there isnt a y2k type of bug in unix, that doesnt mean there cant be a y2k type of bug in unix variants such as Linux, Mac OS, or others.

 

[paradox404]

Where did i say Unix was the same as Windows? It's obvious parados404 doesnt understand how windows works. I used to work for Microsoft. I supported windows 95/98, and helped launch windows xp on oct 25th, 2001. I was one of 300 people to launch windows xp. Some of the bugs i found were fixed in later versions of Windows, and some articles i wrote are still on Microsoft's page. I currently work in IT and have a good understanding of technology.

Saying your windows 98 machine would work without certificates is very ignorant because those versions of windows had very little reliance on certificates. It wasnt until Windows Vista that you have to have core system files signed in order for the system to boot. That's also the version Microsoft introduced the TPM, or trusted platform module.

If you install Windows 8 it comes with built in certificates that are issued by Microsoft. Every core OS file used by Windows is digitally signed by a catalog (.cat) file. If the .cat files are missing, or your system date is really wrong, you will run into a lot of issues.

These core certificates are issued for very long time periods such as 20 years. The assumption is in 20 years you will either not be using Windows 8, or Microsoft will issue a new certificate to replace it. But if there's a nuclear war and no new computers are made, or operating systems, then 20 years from now people might be using the same pc's with the same OS as today, with expired certificates.

The certificates issue also brings up an issue that im sure no one has even talked about. If there was *any* bug in 2036 that needed to be fixed in windows, you would have to do the following:

1) You would need the source code to windows (or whatever OS that needs patching)
2) You would need the original certificate and key to digitally sign the file, as windows does not allow unsigned core OS files - the pc might not even boot
3) You would then need to create a patch and distribute it

The point here is the windows source code is confidential and is private, and the original certificate and key used to sign files is private. If there was a nuclear war you would not be able to make patches for windows, and maybe other OS. Yes, you could install linux on computers currently using windows, but good luck finding drivers in a would destroyed by nuclear war with no internet.

You guys are also assuming he just meant unix and not derivatives. Iphones run on IOS, which is derived from Unix. Apples Mac OS is based on Unix. Linux of course is derived from Unix. Many appliances run Linux or a *nix OS. Routers often run a propriety os based on Unix. Power stations probably run a variety of Unix or Linux. To say nothing would be running unix in 2036 is to say there would be no routers, no iphones, no linux machines, etc.

A very good example of what i am talking about is this

Mr. Crain ran his security test on his open-source DNP3 program and didn’t find anything wrong. Frustrated, he tested a third-party vendor’s program to make sure his software was working. The first program he targeted belonged to Triangle MicroWorks, a Raleigh, North Carolina based company that sells source code to large vendors of S.C.A.D.A. systems. It broke instantly.

So he tested an open protocol and found no problems. But when he tested vendors implementation of that protocol he found a lot of problems. What this means is even if there isnt a y2k type of bug in unix, that doesnt mean there cant be a y2k type of bug in unix variants such as Linux, Mac OS, or others.

I stated that Windows and Unix are different things because of the title of your post...
As for the thing of Windows, obviously YOU don't know anything about Windows as you are implying that they are one and the same. Firstly the Root folder configs are drastically different, Windows has the WINDOWS, USER, PROGRAM FILES, ect. Whereas a UNIX style OS has a system mounted under a / , with the folders called bin, boot, cdrom, dev, ect, home, lib, lost+found, ect...

As for the certificates, I don't really give a stuff about them because I am a GNU/Linux user and I have the solitary Windows 7 Gaming computer, which I probably wont be using in 2038, I would have gone through at least a dozen more, also by then the drivers for the A4 APU would have been supported to perfecion. About the Source code for windows, don't teach me how to suck eggs, I know the difference between Open and Closed source.

In my opinion Windows 8 is rubbish, I was a beta tester, and lets just say I can draw much better that Windows 8 was coded, and I can't draw to save my life! It proves that an OS isn't very good when the OS locks you out of your own BIOS, I ended up having to "Surgically Remove" the OS from my computer. Also the point about the cirtificates I had already pointed out, here is the quote:

I had I think about why Microsoft would do that with the certificates, the reason I came up with is that they would fairly obsolete by then, and the security updates would be discontinued as well, therefore it is a anti-feature to make sure you stay sort of close to their latest OS line up (Making sure you by Windows 12 if they still exist). However I don't expect that it would cause any issues after 2036, as I have Windows 95/98/XP machines with completely outdated certificates, and they still run normally.

Also you have no knowledge of GNU/Linux! GNU/Linux has nothing to do with unix's source code at all. If you had done your research you would find out that GNU stands for Gnu's Not Unix! Linux is the kernel which is OPEN-Source. GNU is the userspace programs. I am much younger than you and I know this. Therefore your comment on "Linux of course is derived from Unix." is incorrect due to lack of knowledge, turn on your brain before opening you mouth. Also if a bug is found on a UNIX system that doesn't mean is occurs on Linux, as I mentioned, was written from scratch and has nothing to do with UNIX. GNU/Linux is a UNIX clone! Here is another point you don't understand, all the Drivers you'll ever need on a GNU/Linux OS is contained solely in Linux. I guess you should be saying that in a post-war world, if you used Windows "good luck finding drivers with no internet!"

It is also a well known fact that IPhones use IOS, and IOS is a drastically stripped down version of OS X. (Although it appears that IOS 7 might be part andriod)

Also when I referred to the Unix bug itself I referred to UNIX specifically, not it's derivatives, nor GNU/Linux. Also when I referred to Linux, I did not refer to Unix or its derivatives. Also I am supprised you didn't mention BSD and Free-BSD.

If there are no new OS or computers made, those computers would be running Linux, as for the windows OS, there might be viruses contained in what is left of the Internet. (Chunks of the internet would likely be stored on PIAS servers.) Also they would not be able to "Activate" their copy of windows. With GNU/Linux in the vast majority of distros this is not required. Also you mention that the Newer Windows have greater dependencies on the certificates, wouldn't that mean no one could use it if the Internet and Microsoft is gone?

As for your link, that does not concern me at all, as I don't live in the UBBSA. (USA) I live in Australia!

Here runs the other issue, If you knew what to do and everything about the "Problem", why did you write in such a panic? Was it to find a victim with more knowledge about the issue than you and then harrass them?