Entropy, from Grayson

[koaon]

Entropy, from Grayson

Phoenix,

I think we may be talking past each other here. So let me focus first on free will, and then get back to all things metaphorical later.

This law however is effected by the loophole of free will as has been repeatedly expressed in the above examples. There is a deep profoundness to freewill and it's relation to entropy/chance in that understanding.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by the above statement. What do you mean by loophole?

koaon

 

[Phoenix]

Entropy, from Grayson

Originally posted by koaon@Jun 19 2004, 03:52 PM
Phoenix,

I think we may be talking past each other here. So let me focus first on free will, and then get back to all things metaphorical later.

This law however is effected by the loophole of free will as has been repeatedly expressed in the above examples. There is a deep profoundness to freewill and it's relation to entropy/chance in that understanding.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by the above statement. What do you mean by loophole?

koaon

Entropy means things head towards chaos.

The loophole is that they can be directed by free will.

 

[koaon]

Entropy, from Grayson

OK, I understand what you mean. I disagree.

Entropy means things head towards chaos, unless external energy is added to the system.

Unless I have a source of energy to power the pumps, filters, heaters, and lights, all the free will in the universe is not going to stop my tank from decaying.

Its the energy that I add to the system that delays entropy, not free will.

 

[Phoenix]

Entropy, from Grayson

Originally posted by koaon@Jun 19 2004, 05:12 PM
OK, I understand what you mean. I disagree.

Entropy means things head towards chaos, unless external energy is added to the system.

Unless I have a source of energy to power the pumps, filters, heaters, and lights, all the free will in the universe is not going to stop my tank from decaying.

Its the energy that I add to the system that delays entropy, not free will.

I must ask you to chose your definition of choas.

Do you mean the nonuseful energy of balanced temperature?

Do you mean the mean the static/gray of statistical probability?

Do you mean the biological state of decay that is an active living process of bacterial organisms?

Do you mean a state of disorder relative to achieving an ends, such as a messy car, or messy desk?

 

[Grayson]

Entropy, from Grayson

Originally posted by koaon@Jun 19 2004, 05:12 PM
OK, I understand what you mean. I disagree.

Entropy means things head towards chaos, unless external energy is added to the system.

Unless I have a source of energy to power the pumps, filters, heaters, and lights, all the free will in the universe is not going to stop my tank from decaying.

Its the energy that I add to the system that delays entropy, not free will.

I agree with this opinion, hence my post.

All things decay, fall apart and dissolve into disorder without additional energy.

Without expended energy, the bedroom floor does indeed become full of clothes.

Phoenix will of course disagree and I have 800 of the required 1000 words ready to deflate his arguments. Patience, Phoenix, patience :lol: the Iceman cometh. (that's an Entropy joke) :lol:

 

[Grayson]

Entropy, from Grayson

Originally posted by koaon@Jun 19 2004, 10:12 AM
OK, its Saturday morning and I've finally had a bit of time to read the entire post, slowly.

Grayson, I was following you right up to this point:

Time can only flow in one direction: The arrow of time can only move from the dead past to the non-existing future. The Second law is closely interwoven with the laws of probability. Therefore, the laws of entropy are statistical laws. If we apply statistical laws applicable to entropy to future events, they provide meaningful results; if we apply them to past events, they are meaningless. Therefore, time can flow only from the dead past toward the future, which does not yet exist. Time travel will always remain impossible: It is inherently impossible to move from one state of non-existence to other states of non-existence. The Second law decrees that the universe would have to cease to exist in order to allow for time-travel.

How does the laws of thermodynamics rule out time travel? Why would the universe have to cease to exist? There's a jump in logic here that I just don't understand.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this paragraph in particular and explain your conclusions?

Missed that, so yes I will. Oh dear, another 1000 words...

 

[koaon]

Entropy, from Grayson

I must ask you to chose your definition of choas.

Since chaos was your word, I must ask you to do the same.

Do you mean the nonuseful energy of balanced temperature?

No.

Do you mean the mean the static/gray of statistical probability?

Way over my head, so no.

Do you mean the biological state of decay that is an active living process of bacterial organisms?

Kinda, yes. I refer to the fact that living organisms, including bacteria, will start to decay and rot, become less complex and more uniform, the moment they die.

Do you mean a state of disorder relative to achieving an ends, such as a messy car, or messy desk?

No. I admit, the messy room was a bad metaphor. A room cannot become messy all by itself. Messiness is a completely subjective thing. People who like their rooms messy may even put in the effort to keep it that way. So that's not the chaos I'm talking about. But after many many years the walls of the room will start to crumble, furniture will start to rot. Eventually everything will turn to dust. That's the chaos I'm talking about.

By chaos I mean disorder, decay, deterioration, structures/organisms of less complexity and more uniformity. I mean "things", living or otherwise, that require less energy to maintain their structure.

 

[Phoenix]

Entropy, from Grayson

By chaos I mean disorder, decay, deterioration, structures/organisms of less complexity and more uniformity. I mean \"things\", living or otherwise, that require less energy to maintain their structure.

So basically you are saying that life needs food to live and it has no choice in the matter.

Ok, I will grant you that.

I would explain that life represent areas of relative negative entropy as understood in the scientific sense.

As for the rot organisms being less complex and especially in regards to them being more uniform. Most of the biological diversity is in the insect and worms, and even more in the bacteria and algae.

I will not try to refute that when Iron is exposed to water it will oxidate => rust. I also freely acknowledge that moving movable parts will create "wear and tear" which is just the basic mechanical properties of the tensile strength and sheer forces of the application of forces on the chemical structure of the solids. How ever much like the messy room this "decay" is subjective to the observer.

If we consider the carbon atoms that go from the soil into a tree. Then the tree becomes chopped down and becomes a table. Then the table experiences wear and tear and is dumped in a dump yard. The the table becomes a shelter for rats, black widows, and termites. Then it becomes soil once more. Each state is merely an arrangement of the atoms. The utility of the atoms is relative to the observer. The termites find it a very useful structure to make their home in as it experiences rot from water damage. The worms find it a very useful state as it becomes soil. Grass growing in the sand then use the atoms again in a useful structure for itself.

Actually non living things preserve quite well without external forces. It is actually the external forces that cause things to subjectively decay.

 

[koaon]

Entropy, from Grayson

So basically you are saying that life needs food to live and it has no choice in the matter.

No, where did I say that? I said that life needs energy to survive.

I would explain that life represent areas of relative negative entropy as understood in the scientific sense.

.
I agree completely with this

As for the rot organisms being less complex and especially in regards to them being more uniform. Most of the biological diversity is in the insect and worms, and even more in the bacteria and algae.

I'm not saying that insects and worms are less complex than fish. But my fish isn't likely to decay into a worm. I am suggesting that a heap of compost is less complex and more uniform than the original trees, shrubs, and weeds, and that a pile of dust is less complex and more uniform than a coffee table.

Phoenix, I'm not trying to debate the mechanics or the science of entropy. You'll probably find that we agree on most of it.

What I am debating is the role of free will in the whole equation.

 

[Phoenix]

Entropy, from Grayson

What I am debating is the role of free will in the whole equation.

I am suggesting that a heap of compost is less complex and more uniform than the original trees, shrubs, and weeds, and that a pile of dust is less complex and more uniform than a coffee table.

Compost and dust are only one part of the entire cycle the atoms go through.

Let me ask you. Are we talking about living or nonliving objects?