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Fringan post Aug 29 2004, 02:53 PM
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I've just finished what I believe is the essential part of the John Titor debate, namely his own posts from johntitor.com and Dr. Robert Brown's calculations.

(One interesting thing though, is that Dr. Brown doesn't seem to teach classes in E&M as he claims in his reply to Titor. It seems like he is rather an expert in astronomy with focus on surfaces on planets and such, thus this kind of physics might not be his strongest side. I might be wrong, this is just the impression i got about him here)



My first thought after I had read a couple of John's posts about his device (J204?) and the newer one, the J206 I instantly wondered why they would use the older, inacurate device. Why not go a year forward in time or so and bring back a newer and better device or atleast blue prints of one? Hell, why not go as far in the future as i'ts safely possible and tell the guys there to go as far in the future as _they_ possibly can and have them bring back a 200 year or so newer device?

Also, Titors "mission" to 1975 to get that IBM5100.. I can't believe anyone would still believe him after reading that. There are probably toys like GameBoy that can emulate a 5100 today and it really wouldn't be a problem in 2036 to interpit the pre-DOS code.


However, I think Titor helped getting thoughts and theories when it comes to time traveling further. His postings and the following debate inspired me with some new ideas and knowledge. Perhaps Titor was one or a number of students conducting a social experiment. It would be a great idea to pull a hoax like this and to get to see how easily or hard it is to fool people believing in you.
In the posts where Titor reffered to politics it was almost always centered around the ongoing election and the American constitution. It gave me a feeling the story was also an attempt to make people more aware (to his ideas/political opinions).
When he answered questions like "Why are you writing this?" he several times answered that he wasn't "selling anything". On the contrary I think he was "selling" or reaching out to alot of people with his opinions of society and what he'd like the society to be like. I do not doubt many found some inspiration in his posts.

To make a long story short; I think Titor is a hoax but yet a somewhat important contributor to the TT relatred philosophies.
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CaryP post Aug 29 2004, 03:14 PM
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Hey Frings,

Glad to see your post. I don't have a whit about JT's science or the motives behind his BBS postings. I have no idea if JT was one person or a multitude of persons. He could have said that TT was possible by chewing gum and rubbing your belly while patting your head, and I wouldn't have been able to tell, 'cause I can't do it all at the same time. At the same time, the boy had some insight into what was to come. I'm not claiming that he had a lock on all that was going to unfold from late 2000 and early 2001, into our current circumstance, but he had a pretty good idea. That's what had me fascinated with the whole thing. I would have never believed what he was saying back in 2000/2001 about the future of the American society, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense now. We'll soon find out if the boy was on to something.

Cary
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TheHeggy post Aug 29 2004, 03:29 PM
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I think it's interesting that every time you flip on the news, you hear about something that can solidify JTs story more and more....

The more time passes and events unfold, the more it is conforming to everything he's told us.
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Paul J. Lyon post Aug 30 2004, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE(TheHeggy @ Aug 29 2004, 09:29 PM)
I think it's interesting that every time you flip on the news, you hear about something that can solidify JTs story more and more....

The more time passes and events unfold, the more it is conforming to everything he's told us.
*




The problem is that many of these things have been happening since long before Titor, and he could have put them together to forecast trends and classes of events. It would be even easier to do so if you were part of a group, each member assigned to different aspects to come up with plausible "scenarios."

That is in fact the Pentagon way of telling the future, and it now has the scenarios all computerized. For this reason, I think that it is highly probable that Titor is a government project, and every time his "predictions" come close, it confirms my suspicion.
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CaryP post Aug 30 2004, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE
That is in fact the Pentagon way of telling the future, and it now has the scenarios all computerized. For this reason, I think that it is highly probable that Titor is a government project, and every time his "predictions" come close, it confirms my suspicion.

The man is definitely on to something here. Been having the same thoughts myself, lately.

Cary
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Paul J. Lyon post Aug 30 2004, 01:36 PM
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And remember that his primary concern, in the sense of the first thing he brought up in terms of his "mission," as well as the recurring theme of his posts, involved trying to find out whether anyone in the present time believed that a civil war was possible.

This to me smacks of the standard federal paranoia behind its more extreme investigations. I tend to think nowadays that the Titor project was a federal investigation. Perhaps Grayson can help us to understand the purpose of a "police" investigation into an event which has yet to transpire.

Think of the impending civil war as a single event which the government does not want to happen. It would want to prevent it, and root out the sources of its origin and instigation beforehand.

If my hunch is correct, it is almost the last thing I need to hear before concluding that the government has either lost its mind, or has lost its ability to win over or against its own people.
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StarLord post Aug 30 2004, 03:11 PM
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I would have to agree with both Paul and Cary on this. At first take, the titor saga seems to have come from a very intelligent set of parameters based on worse case senarios from a very worried group of people in regards to our future.
A sort of "WHAT IF" and projections for that line of reasoning. There are too many loopholes in the book to be taken for real.

However, someone/many someones spent alot of quality time and effort to make this as seemless and not hard to swallow as possible in effort to hook the attention of the reader. As a longtime reader of Sci-Fi books, and such, one can detect differences from imput when a book has been co-authored. Some of those posts from titor logs bear that diference.

BTW, that 2% time line error was the icing on the cake, which opens up all kinds of holes for things unforseen to crawl through in either direction.

Cary has spoken of web bots/spiders that gleen information from the whole web and based on information gathered, profer predictions with a high proability of actuality.

The govt has had at it's beck and call imense computing power for quite some time. Having access to a CRAY or even one of the newer generation systems, one could provide some tasty tid bits of future doom senarios that would/could seem more than quite possible. It is not unfathomable that one of the alphabet dept have such systems with the aforementioned data pluged in and have it up and running. But, to what end? They have known for a very long time how to manipulate the masses to pretty much any corner they wish and have done so....."Duck & Cover" and various other instances.

Both the Eagle and the Bear have been playing tag with viral agents via air stream and or infected tourists for decades, watching news reports, CDC statistics and newspapers for statistics and results, all merely benign 'experments' at the common peoples cost (1,000's have died, but hey, it was some kind of flu thingy, so no big deal). Was this not a govt "coverup" of sorts in a proportion that makes the waco thing look like a kindergarden missing PBJ happening?

There is a saying, "The harder you look, the less you see" and on the side we all know how easy it is to see something while in reality, there is nothing.

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Paul J. Lyon post Aug 30 2004, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE(Paul J. Lyon @ Aug 30 2004, 07:36 PM)
And remember that his primary concern, in the sense of the first thing he brought up in terms of his "mission," as well as the recurring theme of his posts, involved trying to find out whether anyone in the present time believed that a civil war was possible.

... I tend to think nowadays that the Titor project was a federal investigation ...into an event which has yet to transpire.

Think of the impending civil war as a single event which the government does not want to happen. It would want to prevent it, and root out the sources of its origin and instigation beforehand.

*



For the sake of argument, what would be the motive for the government to want to alert us now about a coming civil war?

On first look, it would seem foolhardy to tip off the regular people. On the other hand, it would be an excellent method for spotlighting the "troublemakers" ahead of time.

But this means that they do not know who the real troublemakers are, and need this clumsy device to find them. Perhaps the identities shift with the 2% margin.

Or they know full well who the troublemakers are, and seek to mislead them. Get them out in the open where they can be easily rounded up.

Get them out of the cities.
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Fury post Aug 30 2004, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE(StarLord @ Aug 30 2004, 03:11 PM)
However, someone/many someones spent alot of quality time and effort to make this as seemless and not hard to swallow as possible in effort to hook the attention of the reader. As a longtime reader of Sci-Fi books, and such, one can detect differences from imput when a book has been co-authored. Some of those posts from titor logs bear that diference.


I think your just trying to sound smart.
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TheHeggy post Aug 30 2004, 08:37 PM
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StarLord doesn't need to try to sound smart there, Fury.
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CaryP post Aug 31 2004, 03:31 AM
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QUOTE
I think your just trying to sound smart.

What provoked this comment? Careful now Fury. As Heggy said, Starlord doesn't need to sound smart. He has demonstrated his intelligence and fine sense of humor consistently here. Your comment was rather "quick" of you, especially being your 4th post here. As the wise saying tells us, it's sometimes better to maintain our silence and leave others to doubt our intelligence, rather than open our mouths and confirm our ignorance for all to hear.

Now, Starlord is man, and can handle himself. He needs no rescuing by others. But if you've read these boards much, we're a friendly, close-knit group. We don't take kindly to TT hoaxers, fools and loud mouths who are used to the flame fests of other less polite boards. We especially don't suffer attacks on members who have established the positive reputation that Starlord has.

So before we spin even further off topic, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE that is pertinent to this thread? If so, please do. Or are you the type that snipes at the contributions of others? If so, I suggest you move along to some Wild West show somewhere down the line in the vast world of internet BBS's. There are innumerable opinionated, loud mouthed bafoons waiting for you there.

Sorry Starlord, you were saying...?

Cary
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Paul J. Lyon post Aug 31 2004, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE(CaryP @ Aug 31 2004, 09:31 AM)
QUOTE
I think your just trying to sound smart.

What provoked this comment? Careful now Fury. As Heggy said, Starlord doesn't need to sound smart. He has demonstrated his intelligence and fine sense of humor consistently here. Your comment was rather "quick" of you, especially being your 4th post here. As the wise saying tells us, it's sometimes better to maintain our silence and leave others to doubt our intelligence, rather than open our mouths and confirm our ignorance for all to hear.

Now, Starlord is man, and can handle himself. He needs no rescuing by others. But if you've read these boards much, we're a friendly, close-knit group. We don't take kindly to TT hoaxers, fools and loud mouths who are used to the flame fests of other less polite boards. We especially don't suffer attacks on members who have established the positive reputation that Starlord has.

So before we spin even further off topic, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE that is pertinent to this thread? If so, please do. Or are you the type that snipes at the contributions of others? If so, I suggest you move along to some Wild West show somewhere down the line in the vast world of internet BBS's. There are innumerable opinionated, loud mouthed bafoons waiting for you there.

Sorry Starlord, you were saying...?

Cary
*



Yes: please continue, Starlord. You were trying and succeeding in sounding smart, and we need the input of someone along these lines, since it points to Titor being a smart group that always tried to sound smart and, unlike you, not always succeeding.
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StarLord post Aug 31 2004, 11:33 AM
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Thank You Brothers, It's always nice to know your back is covered no matter what and I most certainly appreciate your kind opinions, made my day I have to tell you.

Now then, Fury is it?

What EXACTLY did you mean by that comment? Were you put off by my opinion? Did you think I was being flippant there in regards to the obvious differences of posts that were purported to be from one person? I bought the thin white book and read it. It reminded me of polyglot beginning opus from several sources.

Albeit, their story line was interesting and their outlines prior to this hoax must have been prodigious at best because you need a pat set of outlines when writing about time travel so that you do not create a paradox in your own travels. They almost pulled it off. Almost.

I have been reading as a hobby many years before you were born. I have lost more books than you may have bought or read. I remember reading the early works of many established Sci-Fi authors and have enjoyed with great relish and anticipation their respective growth as they unfurled their imaginations and soared as each new book was created and set free. There is nothing like witnessing a author grow into his or her own. And, there is nothing like the neverending angony of waiting for the next new book to show up.

Stephen R Donaldson did this to me 5 times while I patiently,cough, waited for him to finish the Illearth Series featuring Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever, UrLord, White Gold Wielder, and so on and so on... A triology that went to six books....

I Digress.
Point is, each and every single author has their own flair, style, presence while writing. Same in music, There is no mistaking the licks of Carlito (Santana) from Joe Satriani and Van Halen or Hendrix, it is more than, plain as day, because you can hear it. Trust me when I say that the same is true when reading written works.

Just because we are not aware of something that does not meet the eye or attention right off, certainly does not mean that it is not real. There is a obvious intent to this work regarding titor and his portent of future ill and I will tell you point blank, it has nothing to do with a real person nor does it have to do with the claim of time travel, that in itself is the hook for your interest and attention, so is the fear generated from the "bad news" of the future and lastly being one of the few "that truly know whats going to happen in the future" most people love secret gossip of this sort.

Which reminds me, I would wager that there were either a resident psychologist and or psychiatrist in on the writing of this titor story.

Here is a tasty tidbit for you to test your skills of logical progression Fury. What do you think would happen when two eaxct same model trucks with the same VIN # show up to be registered and insured? You can bet your bottom dollar that would have made the news back then, Very Big News. If it was me dealing that problem, I would have created a "2% Time Line Variance" to cover my backside from details that I had forgotten to think about.

Fury, did you have anything else on your mind?
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Grayson post Aug 31 2004, 11:58 AM
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This was Fury's first mistake as Starlord actually is smart.

Fury's second mistake, will be to reply and try to sound smarter.
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Paul J. Lyon post Aug 31 2004, 12:41 PM
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I think the Fury was full of sound and signified nothing.

I also thought that there had to have been a psychologist of some sort on the "Titor Team." There is actually too much range for it to be one person: cultist/survivalist/Constitutionalist, Fundamentalist Christian, Amateur Physicist, Science Fiction Writer, Anthropologist/Mythographer, etc. etc. etc.

This is why it is important to hear about Starlord's take on the imitative character of the writing and its themes.

Let's not be derailed by somebody putting a nickel on the rail.
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Phoenix post Sep 1 2004, 12:26 AM
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QUOTE(Paul J. Lyon @ Aug 31 2004, 12:41 PM)
I think the Fury was full of sound and signified nothing.

I also thought that there had to have been a psychologist of some sort on the "Titor Team." There is actually too much range for it to be one person: cultist/survivalist/Constitutionalist, Fundamentalist Christian, Amateur Physicist, Science Fiction Writer, Anthropologist/Mythographer, etc. etc. etc.

This is why it is important to hear about Starlord's take on the imitative character of the writing and its themes.

Let's not be derailed by somebody putting a nickel on the rail.
*


The religion aspect of Titor is actually very interesting. He claimed to be agnostic Christian. He also very much exemplified the role. It was clear that he held Christian beliefs and had such interests as asking the question of what people believed, "would Christ return as a lion or a lamb?" This question was frequently ignored from what I saw. Still Titor asked it with all the sincerity of a church attendee. He also had opinions about what people wore to church.

For me the "lion or lamb" question is like the angels on a head of a pin question, mainly because I so do not have Christian beliefs.

On the other hand Titor was very open about diversity of beliefs, very fitting of his agnostic stance. He held no ill will to those people who thought differently then him in terms of religion, a very unevangelical stance. He never sought to convert, and never insisted he believed the truth in terms of religion.
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Paul J. Lyon post Sep 1 2004, 09:41 AM
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QUOTE(Phoenix @ Sep 1 2004, 06:26 AM)
QUOTE(Paul J. Lyon @ Aug 31 2004, 12:41 PM)
I think the Fury was full of sound and signified nothing.

I also thought that there had to have been a psychologist of some sort on the "Titor Team." There is actually too much range for it to be one person: cultist/survivalist/Constitutionalist, Fundamentalist Christian, Amateur Physicist, Science Fiction Writer, Anthropologist/Mythographer, etc. etc. etc.

This is why it is important to hear about Starlord's take on the imitative character of the writing and its themes.

Let's not be derailed by somebody putting a nickel on the rail.
*


The religion aspect of Titor is actually very interesting. He claimed to be agnostic Christian. He also very much exemplified the role. It was clear that he held Christian beliefs and had such interests as asking the question of what people believed, "would Christ return as a lion or a lamb?" This question was frequently ignored from what I saw. Still Titor asked it with all the sincerity of a church attendee. He also had opinions about what people wore to church.

For me the "lion or lamb" question is like the angels on a head of a pin question, mainly because I so do not have Christian beliefs.

On the other hand Titor was very open about diversity of beliefs, very fitting of his agnostic stance. He held no ill will to those people who thought differently then him in terms of religion, a very unevangelical stance. He never sought to convert, and never insisted he believed the truth in terms of religion.
*



"I come not to bring peace, but a sword," Jesus, I think.

You are absolutely right about his religious makeup.

I misused the term "Fundamentalist." I find that I do this all the time, because I think of it as an older phrase, to mean something more like "Calvinist" or "Puritan," someone who believed that Christianity ought to go back to the "basics." This is definitely not what the current batch of "BornAgains" are.

That's the kind of Christian I think Titor was: he was a frontier or pioneer Christian.
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TheOrangeMan post Sep 10 2004, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE
I also thought that there had to have been a psychologist of some sort on the "Titor Team." There is actually too much range for it to be one person: cultist/survivalist/Constitutionalist, Fundamentalist Christian, Amateur Physicist, Science Fiction Writer, Anthropologist/Mythographer, etc. etc. etc.

Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment. If what you’re saying is true you are now asking for a pretty substantial group of people. Each person would have quite a few differences both theory wise and philosophically to come together to lie to the world and make a believable story. Not an easy thing to do, to get a group of people from all walks of life to come together to agree on a foundation to build a “hoax” upon.

The mention of a government hoax does bear some investigation, however it would seem odd that the government would spend time having communication via BBS with UK Citizens when their main goal would be to gather data from US citizens.
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Phoenix post Sep 10 2004, 09:41 PM
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That's the kind of Christian I think Titor was: he was a frontier or pioneer Christian.

I would agree with that sentiment.
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pauli post Sep 12 2004, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE
I think the Fury was full of sound and signified nothing.

Ouch! You guys can be harsh.

QUOTE
I also thought that there had to have been a psychologist of some sort on the "Titor Team." There is actually too much range for it to be one person: cultist/survivalist/Constitutionalist, Fundamentalist Christian, Amateur Physicist, Science Fiction Writer, Anthropologist/Mythographer, etc. etc. etc.

QUOTE
Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment. If what you’re saying is true you are now asking for a pretty substantial group of people. Each person would have quite a few differences both theory wise and philosophically to come together to lie to the world and make a believable story. Not an easy thing to do, to get a group of people from all walks of life to come together to agree on a foundation to build a “hoax” upon.

I'll also add to the devil's advocate position here. It is possible that the Titor author could have been one person who had the varied interests of the list you all mentioned. If we agree this was not the 14 year old son of Larry Haber - which I can't imagine to be the case (a 14 year old would not have the breadth of life experience, nor the adequate psychology to pull this off) - then it is possible it was done by a person in their late 30's early 40's. By that time, a person has often had contact with various segments of life. If I were to construct a story, you might find that I would include such things as a working knowledge of the business world, insurance, psychology, religion (spec. Christianity & Judaism), history, literature (American/English & World) and pop culture. Does that make me a "team of people" out to construct a story? All it does is show the areas of interest and life experience, or study, that I have undergone. It is possible that what we are dealing with, when reading Titor's writings, is a man who enjoyed all of the interests enumerated by Paul. Who knows? Maybe this is what got him excited about life? And, ;) perhaps he was too involved with his weirdness and on-line posting that he didn't have much of a life with the ladies. I suppose we should also hand him the title of "Mr. geek" too. :p

Then again, maybe he was a TT from 2036 ;)

This post has been edited by pauli: Sep 12 2004, 04:21 AM
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Chromium post Sep 12 2004, 09:20 AM
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The notion of the Titor story being the product of a collaborative effort from several specialised people is something i have thought over in great detail. One thing i hadn't thought of though, was that it could have been a government sponsored exercise. That is a brilliant hypothesis, and one that makes the sci-fi crazy part of my brain litterally pulsate with excitement.

The things to consider:

There are undoubtedly thousands of highly intelligent, specialised and secret minds working for the US government. There must be sections of the government dedicated to the prediction of future world events because of the obvious volatility of our current world climate and because of their need to know that their existence will be a secure and prolonged one. There are, and have been for some time, highly complex devices and branches of mathematics and physics models applied to many predictive themes. Japan currently own the largest (known) computer system which models weather patterns. The actual accuracy of this modelling system is staggering considering the chaotic elements and unpredictability associated with the weather. If the technology is there for us to predict future events as complicated as the weather, then it would be no surprise to me that the same kind of system could be adapted to the world population and its influence on future world events. Providing the intial data is accurate and enough of it is fed into a system, the outcome will be as accurate as the credibility of the data fed into it.

Imagine a collection of people assigned a task to predict where we are going as a nation. They are given unlimited access to a government owned supercomputer and are told to use all means necessary to obtain data relating to our future. What if these people ran the simulations only to find the end result saying we will all blow ourselves up in ten to fifteen years. Obviously a hasty re-write in the initial data would be required before anyone could rightfully conclude the predictions as accurate. What if they tried many different ways, but kept coming to the same drastic conclusion? I am sure the results would be brought to the attention of the highest ranking officials fairly speedily.

So, what then would they do to counteract these upcoming events? Using the titor story would be an excellent way to guage the reaction of the people, and to gain a broad spectrum of opinion from the populace. I don't think this would be THE device used to reverse the inevitable, but i am sure it would be a very useful tool to raise awareness without having to tell people exactly what is going to happen. If the government have indeed made some startling discoveries, then it would be in their best interests to start the ball rolling now. And Titor would be a great way to slowly assimilate people to the possibility without invoking widespread panic.

Sometimes real life can be far more interesting than fiction.
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Phoenix post Sep 12 2004, 10:47 AM
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CaryP often makes reference to something very much like you are describing chromium. It is on halfpasthuman.com
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CaryP post Sep 12 2004, 11:15 AM
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The web bot technology at halfpasthuman.com is only a few years old, and is considered in its infancy by the developer. It is used for short term predictions - 3 to 6 months out. The Pentagon does do a lot of "future reading" and have been for over forty years. The more powerful computers available today would be an essential tool to this task. The CIA, NSA and other govt. agencies have been into predicting future scenarios big time. My take is that the longer range planning of the PTB included some of what we are seeing with Homeland Security and the Patriot Acts. In other words, the gradual loss of privacy and freedoms has been a long range goal of the govt. establishment. Looking into how the populace would react would be a vital part of the process. Make it slow enough over time, and everyone gets used to it, because "it's always been this way, right?". But at some point, the govt. would make the "big move" to consolidate power and remove citizens rights and privacy. The Titor scenario may have come up in the analysis in the late 90's when computers power was really taking off. Plant the story in a public way - the internet was just coming on strong then. The internet provides an anonymous method to float any trial balloons you want. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Cary
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Grayson post Sep 13 2004, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE(CaryP @ Sep 12 2004, 05:15 PM)
The web bot technology at halfpasthuman.com is only a few years old, and is considered in its infancy by the developer. It is used for short term predictions - 3 to 6 months out. The Pentagon does do a lot of "future reading" and have been for over forty years. The more powerful computers available today would be an essential tool to this task. The CIA, NSA and other govt. agencies have been into predicting future scenarios big time. My take is that the longer range planning of the PTB included some of what we are seeing with Homeland Security and the Patriot Acts. In other words, the gradual loss of privacy and freedoms has been a long range goal of the govt. establishment. Looking into how the populace would react would be a vital part of the process. Make it slow enough over time, and everyone gets used to it, because "it's always been this way, right?". But at some point, the govt. would make the "big move" to consolidate power and remove citizens rights and privacy. The Titor scenario may have come up in the analysis in the late 90's when computers power was really taking off. Plant the story in a public way - the internet was just coming on strong then. The internet provides an anonymous method to float any trial balloons you want. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Cary
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And very scary thoughts too Cary. That's a very disturbing scenario that you paint, have been painting for a while now. Any links of interest to peruse on this subject?
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sosuemetoo post Sep 13 2004, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE(CaryP @ Sep 12 2004, 12:15 PM)
In other words, the gradual loss of privacy and freedoms has been a long range goal of the govt. establishment.

The only reasons I feel this theory is not possible is that it would take three things:

1. A large number of people in on a conspiracy.

2. Keeping a secret.

3. Keeping a secret over a long period of time.


It is hard for me to believe that there wouldn't be one person out of the group that wouldn't expose the hoax. In essence, it seems that the entire US government is against the populace. I'm all for conspiracy theories, I have an open mind, but this would require me to distrust/question almost all elected and hired officials of the US government. Hard to believe.

"Mom"
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Paul J. Lyon post Sep 13 2004, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE(sosuemetoo @ Sep 13 2004, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE(CaryP @ Sep 12 2004, 12:15 PM)
In other words, the gradual loss of privacy and freedoms has been a long range goal of the govt. establishment.

The only reasons I feel this theory is not possible is that it would take three things:

1. A large number of people in on a conspiracy.

2. Keeping a secret.

3. Keeping a secret over a long period of time.


It is hard for me to believe that there wouldn't be one person out of the group that wouldn't expose the hoax. In essence, it seems that the entire US government is against the populace. I'm all for conspiracy theories, I have an open mind, but this would require me to distrust/question almost all elected and hired officials of the US government. Hard to believe.

"Mom"
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It is a mistake to think that a conspiracy must be competent or even completely successful. For example, the FBI continues to struggle to conceal certain aspects of the JFK case, and finds itself contrary to the interests of the CIA and Justice Dept.

It is a mistake to think that a conspiracy requires secrecy. In a way, it oddly requires leakage to get anywhere, because it often depends upon intimidation, and a strange reputation for clamping down on leaks. In other words, it needs a leak to show what it will do if there's a leak.

It is a mistake to think that a conspiracy has a deadline or due date. The professed goal of the CIA, for example, is to conduct massive operations, involving sometimes entire populations, as secretly as possible, and to make the operation "secure," or, in other words, permanent. This is why the truth about the South and Central American military dictators is still obscured after 50 years, in spite of the fact that the whole prank took most of that time to pull.

Our government has been involved in deep studies of "scenarios" since the beginning of the Cold War, boosted by computer science, and most of the scenarios involve nuclear catastrophe and terrorist strikes and invasions. One of the most popular scenarios before 1963 was "assassination of the president." The scenarios include prospective futures caused by upheaval.

Titor resembles a government scenario even more than he does a science fiction story.
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StarLord post Sep 14 2004, 11:16 AM
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Sosuemetoo,

Are you aware of the US and East Block Powers (Russia) game of playing "Follow That Plague / Bug" that has been played for the last 40 years or so? A person traveling to "over there" would be 'infected' before the journey, the bug would incubate, the traveler would then get sick, become infectious, you sit back and watch the news papers/news casts and monitor hospitals regarding outbreaks of major 'Flu' like cases. It is child's play to attach a virus along with another virus where the former has a very long incubation period. Said scenarios have been played both in computer models and in real life.

Where do you think AIDS came from? , Certainly not some chimp or ape, that excuse is nothing but insulting. Just the exact way that disease attacks the host is a tailored art form in disease progression. AIDS did not create itself, nor did it evolve in the jungle, it was built by man. How long has AIDS been ravaging people around the world and still continues? Perhaps on someone's death bed (if they haven't been put away already) the truth will come out as to it's genesis. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

In all honesty, the general public is a "kept vegetable" raised on a plethora of attention stealing, free thinking inhibited, gadget chasing, self perpetuating environmental indulgence, where keeping up with the jones's is a priority. They / TPB have ingrained the population to following the Que as almost mandatory.

Just look at how much being politically correct has ham strung us and delegated us to the position of a backseat driver with no voice. It's a very good thing that some of us here are not lemmings. For me I have learned to fight the urge 'to run'.

When dealing with the guberment, 25 to 30 year old or more, secret projects are a way of life and more than the norm. What ever you think you know about the govt. is a pale shadow of the real tip of the iceberg that does not melt because due to our funds, along the years it has but grown exponentially below the surface.
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lev post Sep 14 2004, 03:41 PM
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::.. This is a very interesting discussion ..::

::.. However ..::.. If this were a controlled government project, why would the target group(s) consist of those of us that are easily baited into tales of Anomalies and conspiracy theories to begin with? ..::

This post has been edited by lev: Sep 14 2004, 03:43 PM
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StarLord post Sep 14 2004, 04:12 PM
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Sci-Fi / "time travel" theme , "mystery" of what a time traveler may reveal about the future. Gossip like this is worth it's weight in diamonds to some people. Sheep don't usually bother with stuff like this, they are too busy checking to see if their elbow functions when holding 12 to 16 ozs of cold fluid while being asualted visually with mind numbing, grey matter ossifying, electricaly distributed pablum. & Oh My Gawd Ethel, there's 175 channels!!!!!

Your question gave all the answers you seek right there. It's *because* your looking in places like that. What better place to hide a conspiricy than in a tale of impending doom and gloom where the govt. is the villan and gets blasted in the end. Don't you like happy endings?
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Cornelia post Sep 15 2004, 06:28 AM
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Chromium,
Some of the members here maybe remember the thread I posted on the old forum. My "scenario" was exactly the one you called "the government scenario".
But with a slight difference: the person/persons doing the JT story were NOT allowed by the govt. They were a sort of "lone wolves", trying to raise the awareness of people about what they've discovered in their everyday job for the govt.
I called them "diverted intelligence", means insiders who act without the govt consent. I always remember what JT said: "In order to find me, they must believe Time Travelling is possible". My translation is "In order to find me, they must look in Time Travellers boards and sites, which is something they'll never do."

----Cornelia (first post after the warning...)-----
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