Islam

[Phoenix]

Islam

Originally posted by karizma@Sep 7 2004, 09:39 AM
Phoenix -

I am very interested in hearing your opinion on possible solutions to this madness. In all of my personal thoughts I have not been able to come up with anything that I could a) morally live with or B) would be remotely possible in reality.

Karizma

​

Well let me hear your thoughts about what you consider solutions that are inviable and those you could not morally live with.

It may be that my personal solution is actually under one of those.

Pauli,

Go ahead and address specific theories that Cary is proposing. Enumerate them and ask Cary to support his position. Please also include sources for your arguments as well Pauli, I am sure you both can talk about this logically and systematically.

 

[CaryP]

Islam

I do understand that we did support Osama at one time. That was not when he was screaming death to the infidels. This was when Russia, a communist country, was invading Afganistan.

If they didn't want our presense, then why are those in the UN so quick to ask the US to go in and help Africa and the Middle East? African and Middle Eastern nations vote for our presence!

As for that area of the world being an Islamic holy land....it is also a Christian and Jewish holy land. These religions were all born in that area. Why can't we all live there, instead of just the Muslims? Why do we have countries like Iran that are Islamic nations? Why can't it be a democracy with freedom to worship God, Allah or a grain of sand?

I believe we should stop supporting Isreal, then fundementalist muslims stop sending their children in with a strap on bomb and blowing up a busload of people and feeling like a martyr when they do so.

Lastly, I do believe the jihadists want me dead personally. When I see signs and spoken word saying \"death to the infidels\" (Infidel is a non-muslim) \"death to America\", that speaks to me loud and clear what their intentions are. They want death to every religion except Islam. If it weren't true, then why (once again) are their Islamic nations that do not allow any freedom of religion?

I'm going to respond to some of your points Sue, but not all of them.

I guess since the Soviet Union being communist made their invasion of Afghanistan wrong, and that the US being a republic (well sorta anyway) makes it right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got rid of the Taliban who killed women in the soccer stadium and disrupted their opium trade, blah, blah, blah. But why are we still there? To protect the puppet govt. we installed. We don't even control most of the country. And the opium trade? Record year for poppy harvest and primo herion is hitting Europe and the US. Guess who helps them with this - the CIA. Helps fund some of the "black bag" ops. "Oh, the CIA and our govt. would never participate in drug trafficing!" Remember Iran Contra? Drug trafficking was part of the deal, which was squashed in the hearings. A few guys got convicted. Some got presidential pardons, and some had their convictions overturned on appeal. A major white wash. I've read accounts of former cops who found out the hard way that the CIA is deep in the middle of the drug trade.

The Holy Land I was referring to was in Saudi Arabia, not Jerusalem. The holiest muslim site is Mecca in Saudi Arabia. We had troops in Saudi in big numbers until last year. We still have workers, diplomats and some military there. That is what I was referring to. Now we've got troops in two muslim countries, Afgh. and Iraq. That has been a huge recruiting poster for the jihadists. We are less safe now than before 9/11.

I'd be very surprised if your name was on the al Qaeda hit list Sue. It's not personal to you, was my point. It's not personal to US citizens. Have you read the message that OBL sent out about a year ago. He said his enemy was the govts. of the US and the West, not the citizens. He even apologized for any harm and deaths that would happen if the US govt. didn't pack up and leave the muslim part of the world. They could care less what religion we practice here. They just want us out of their part of the world. There are non-muslim people living in most of the muslim world. Saddam's foreign minister (Tariq Aziz) was a Christian. He even visited the Pope before we invaded Iraq, looking for some help from the Pope in cooling off the war drums. If pressed, yes some muslim extremists would probably rather the entire world convert to Islam, but you're talking a very small majority. What major religion wouldn't want the world to convert to it?

I am however terrified of the Jihadists and fundementalist muslims. I wish they would allow us to worship in anyway we see fit and not kill innocent people who may (or may not) agree with their views on the Koran.\"

Sue, with all due respect and affection for you personally, you listen to too much Republican rhetoric and Rush Limbaugh. It ain't about none of the above. People are not being killed over misinterpretations of the Qu'ran, or practising non-muslim religions. They don't hate our way of life and our "freedom", per our Chimpadent Bush. It's global politics at its nastiest, and the US govt. is playing just as dirty as anyone else. Have you read the speech by Michael Ruppert to the Common Wealth Club? I posted a link over in the Criminal Misrule thread. He lays out the chess board pretty good with who the players are, and what the game is all about.

To take a line from Pulp Fiction, "You know I respect you and all" but this is a much bigger game than is being portrayed by the media or the govt., and most people haven't the slightest clue as to what's going on.

Cary

 

[CaryP]

Islam

Originally posted by karizma@Sep 7 2004, 09:21 AM

Talk...Talk...Talk. Everyone has their opinion and theory, but what can we really do to solve this problem? Sending aid doesn't seem to help, sending troops doesn't seem to help, sitting back and watching doesn't seem to help. I feel somewhat discouraged that there is no real solution. Now they are saying that al Qaeda was linked to the tragedy in Russia. For every radical that is killed it seems that there are two to take the empty place. Our violence against them only adds to their numbers and their desires to destroy us and our nation. These people have no honor or decency when they kill innocent people such as the children in Russia. So what is the answer? ?

Karizma

​

Well Karizma, here's my take. It's kinda like getting a really bad virus. You can't cure it overnight. There is no medicine that will kill a virus. You just have to ride it out, take aspirin and keep your fluid intake going. Your body will either learn to fight it or not. You either get well with anti-bodies to protect you in the future or you die.

With that analogy, here's the tie in with where we're at IMO. World governments have become corrupt - that's the virus. They will not give up their power willingly or easily. We're way past the point of some solution being offered and working that will solve all these problems - that's the medicine that won't cure the virus. The corporatists and special influences, not to mention NWO organizations "own" the system of govt. The people will have to find a way to reorganize the governments in a way that serves the people, not the other way around. This may take civil unrest, a civil war, or probably a World War to wake everybody up and spur them to take action rather than just passively accept what keeps rolling downhill. Voting, speaking out, staying informed, paying attention to what's going on, and not just believing whatever the govt. tells us is the aspirin and fluids part. Until the governed can retool the system of governing to be in their own best interest, I'm afraid we're stuck with the virus. Retooling the system of governance is the anti-body that makes us well again, and protects us from future "attacks" by the virus. If the people never take back their govt. they will become enslaved by it - that's the death part, if an anti-body is not developed.

May sound conspiratorial and simplistic, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it Or as Dennis Miller says "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

Cary

 

[sosuemetoo]

Islam

Originally posted by CaryP@Sep 7 2004, 12:25 PM
I guess since the Soviet Union being communist made their invasion of Afghanistan wrong, and that the US being a republic (well sorta anyway) makes it right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got rid of the Taliban who killed women in the soccer stadium and disrupted their opium trade, blah, blah, blah. But why are we still there? To protect the puppet govt. we installed.

The Taliban not only killed a few women on a soccer field. Women were stoned to death for showing a hand in public (do you remember the films we saw on CNN right after 9/11) Little girls were not allowed to attend school. Women were not allowed to receive healthcare. The list goes on and on. We are there to 1. Protect the sitting government until they are established and have more elections. 2. To continue hunting for Osama and his merry men. 3. Help train their troops so that they can defend themselves.

And the opium trade? Record year for poppy harvest and primo herion is hitting Europe and the US.

I'll give you that. However we have the same problem in our own country. As long as there is a demand, then there will always be a supply somehow. You wouldn't believe what we have growing in between the corn rows in the county I live in. Demand = Supply. Get rid of the demand and there will be no reason need for supply.

Remember Iran Contra? Drug trafficking was part of the deal, which was squashed in the hearings. A few guys got convicted.

Yes I do remember. I also remember that these were rogue agents that were not following instructions by their commanding officer.

The Holy Land I was referring to was in Saudi Arabia, not Jerusalem. The holiest muslim site is Mecca in Saudi Arabia..

I apologize. I was speaking of Isreal, Iran, Iraq and Syria.

We are less safe now than before 9/11.

I disagree. We were asleep at the wheel that day. We had given in to these Jihadists since 1979 when Iran took American's hostage. Yes we bombed an asprin factory in 1998 (?) but I believe that was more "wag the dog" than anything else.

He even apologized for any harm and deaths that would happen if the US govt. didn't pack up and leave the muslim part of the world. They could care less what religion we practice here.

I had not read that. However, I've read the most recent one where Jihadists are telling all Muslims to leave the US immediately....because they do not want their "brothers" to be hurt. With this statement, I believe they do care that we have freedom to practice any religion we choose.

Saddam's foreign minister (Tariq Aziz) was a Christian. He even visited the Pope before we invaded Iraq, looking for some help from the Pope in cooling off the war drums.

Isn't this the same man who refused to take questions at a press conference after meeting with the pope, from a Jewish newspaper? Is he not the one who asked "are you a Jew? I refuse to answer questions from a Jew"

What major religion wouldn't want the world to convert to it?

True, very true.

Sue, with all due respect and affection for you personally, you listen to too much Republican rhetoric and Rush Limbaugh.

>< CaryP You can never get enough of Rush Limbaugh!

To take a line from Pulp Fiction, \"You know I respect you and all\" but this is a much bigger game than is being portrayed by the media or the govt., and most people haven't the slightest clue as to what's going on.

I agree. You could be wrong, I could be wrong. What I fear is that we may never really know.


"Mom"

 

[CaryP]

Islam

The Taliban not only killed a few women on a soccer field. Women were stoned to death for showing a hand in public (do you remember the films we saw on CNN right after 9/11) Little girls were not allowed to attend school. Women were not allowed to receive healthcare. The list goes on and on. We are there to 1. Protect the sitting government until they are established and have more elections. 2. To continue hunting for Osama and his merry men. 3. Help train their troops so that they can defend themselves.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're supposed to take out every dictatorship on the planet? They aren't the only bad guys on the planet. If we're so committed to stamping out tyranny, why aren't we in Africa? Why didn't we help overthrow the So. African govt. when they still practised Apartheid? The argument just doesn't hold up. The CIA hit squads and special forces are much better equipped to handle terror cells around the world, not a massive show of military might. Most of Afgh. is still controlled by war lords. They don't want our style of govt. They don't subscribe to PNAC's Pax Americana agenda. I'm sure there are still atrocities being practised there. We can not solve the world's problems by shoving "our way" down everybody's throat at gun point. Leave them to their own devices and get the hell out.

I'll give you that. However we have the same problem in our own country. As long as there is a demand, then there will always be a supply somehow. You wouldn't believe what we have growing in between the corn rows in the county I live in. Demand = Supply. Get rid of the demand and there will be no reason need for supply.

How about cutting the supply by getting the CIA out of the drug trade?

Yes I do remember. I also remember that these were rogue agents that were not following instructions by their commanding officer.

His name was George H. W. Bush.

I disagree. We were asleep at the wheel that day. We had given in to these Jihadists since 1979 when Iran took American's hostage. Yes we bombed an asprin factory in 1998 (?) but I believe that was more \"wag the dog\" than anything else.

Have you read Michael Ruppert's speech to the Common Wealth Club? Dick Cheney was very much awake and at the controls that day. There were several "exercises" that day designed to keep our jets from responding. We have supplied those jihadists with money, weapons, communications technology, intelligence and a free floating drug trade for a long time. But you keep believing what you wanna believe.

I had not read that. However, I've read the most recent one where Jihadists are telling all Muslims to leave the US immediately....because they do not want their \"brothers\" to be hurt. With this statement, I believe they do care that we have freedom to practice any religion we choose.

You mean like when the State Dept. warns Americans to leave certain countries because of perceived danger? Maybe they're getting ready to hit us as promised and they don't want to kill other muslims. Why would they care about our freedom of religion? Makes no sense.

Isn't this the same man who refused to take questions at a press conference after meeting with the pope, from a Jewish newspaper? Is he not the one who asked \"are you a Jew? I refuse to answer questions from a Jew\"

And? So? Israel and Iraq were sworn enemies without diplomatic relations. No biggie there.

CaryP You can never get enough of Rush Limbaugh!

Keep drinking the Kool Aid Sue.

What I fear is that we may never really know.

What I fear is we'll find out way more than the public is able to handle.

We're obviously on opposite sides of most of the issues Sue, and that's cool. I've enjoyed our friendly sparring.

Cary

 

[sosuemetoo]

Islam

Originally posted by CaryP@Sep 7 2004, 03:02 PM
We're obviously on opposite sides of most of the issues Sue, and that's cool. I've enjoyed our friendly sparring.

Me too. Unfortunately we've solved nothing and have practically hijacked Pyro's Islam thread. Sorry Pyro!

Back to a discussion of Islam.

 

[Unintentional]

Islam

I like the current US policy that takes out dictatorships if it is USA's interests to do so. Most dictatorships between WW2 and pre 9-11 were taken out by us fighting the spread of communism. We took out Afganistan in direct retaliation for 9-11. We took out Iraq because we had already begun taking him out in Desert Storm 1 (besides having UN resolution 1441 allowing the use of force which was unanimously approved by the security counsel), and it was in our interests to take him out to try and stabilize the area to secure our source of oil. I don't think the US takes out dictators willy nilly, but has always had a USA interest at heart. I will also agree that securing a source of oil might seem a weak reason to remove a dictator, but imagine the world chaos and world economies crumbling which would surely lead to an incredibly large loss of life throughout the world including the USA.

If we took out dictators willy nilly, why are leaving N.Korea, Syria, Iran alone? I will never apologize for the USA being the most powerful country in the world and will time to time use that awesome power to make the world better for Americans (and the world). Face it, the US, where ever they are have always been the good guys.

If the USA was truly evil imagine what it would and could do. The US has remarkable restraint also. How many times have muslim extremist hit us without a direct US response? USS Cole, USS Stark, 1st WTC bombing, US Embassies and just a few that come directly to mind.

Someone here said they would never vote for Bush again, but who do muslim extremist fear most between Kerry and Bush? I actually think they don't care. Most pre 9-11 planning and execution was done when Clinton was president. Did a change of political parties in the White House give them second thought? No. However, they were surprised by the prompt retaliation in Afganistan. Hi level Al-Queda officials who were captured in Afganistan said they did not even plan on a US retaliation. That is how complacent we were previously. The day after the election in the US, I can tell who won by looking at the people in the streets of Syria and Palestine. If they are partying and celebrating, you know Kerry won. If they look broken and resigned to loosing, you know Bush won.

 

[CaryP]

Islam

Originally posted by Unintentional@Sep 7 2004, 04:51 PM

I like the current US policy that takes out dictatorships if it is USA's interests to do so. Most dictatorships between WW2 and pre 9-11 were taken out by us fighting the spread of communism. We took out Afganistan in direct retaliation for 9-11. We took out Iraq because we had already begun taking him out in Desert Storm 1 (besides having UN resolution 1441 allowing the use of force which was unanimously approved by the security counsel), and it was in our interests to take him out to try and stabilize the area to secure our source of oil. I don't think the US takes out dictators willy nilly, but has always had a USA interest at heart. I will also agree that securing a source of oil might seem a weak reason to remove a dictator, but imagine the world chaos and world economies crumbling which would surely lead to an incredibly large loss of life throughout the world including the USA. ?

If we took out dictators willy nilly, why are leaving N.Korea, Syria, Iran alone? I will never apologize for the USA being the most powerful country in the world and will time to time use that awesome power to make the world better for Americans (and the world). Face it, the US, where ever they are have always been the good guys. ?

If the USA was truly evil imagine what it would and could do. The US has remarkable restraint also. How many times have muslim extremist hit us without a direct US response? USS Cole, USS Stark, 1st WTC bombing, US Embassies and just a few that come directly to mind.

Someone here said they would never vote for Bush again, but who do muslim extremist fear most between Kerry and Bush? I actually think they don't care. Most pre 9-11 planning and execution was done when Clinton was president. Did a change of political parties in the White House give them second thought? No. However, they were surprised by the prompt retaliation in Afganistan. Hi level Al-Queda officials who were captured in Afganistan said they did not even plan on a US retaliation. That is how complacent we were previously. The day after the election in the US, I can tell who won by looking at the people in the streets of Syria and Palestine. If they are partying and celebrating, you know Kerry won. If they look broken and resigned to loosing, you know Bush won.

​

Uni,

I'll make a short response here, 'cause I'm about all Islam'd out. If the US is in the ME for the purpose of securing oil for our future, how criminal and selfish. The terrorists would love Bush to get re-elected. He is the best recruiting poster they've had in decades. We don't take out dictators "willy nilly" as you say, only those whose disposal suits our interests - again, our selfish interest is showing again. There were seldom few dictatorships taken out by the US between WW II and 9/11. In fact, most of the military actions taken in that time were to reign in our bought and paid for CIA "assets" that had "gotten off the leash" so to speak. The rest is just a paycheck for the military-industrial complex at taxpayer expense. Did Viet Nam or Korea really matter? Not a whit, but the military-industrial complex sure made money. Securing oil for our individual interests is not "weak" as you describe it, but selfish and evil. Peak Oil is real, and it will affect the global populace. The ruling elite is trying to ensure their safety and survival at your and our expense. The restraint to previous "terror" attacks you sighted was due to the fact that they did not provoke the necessary response in the American public, so a bigger one was needed, hence 9/11. The UN resolution you sighted is just so much toilet paper. The people of the USA are not evil, but our govt. surely is. You can not begin to imagine the atrocities committed in the name of our govt., but the truth is out there, and we have become the most hated and feared country on the face of the planet.

As usual, I've said far more than I intended. You believe what you wanna believe.

Cary

 

[StarLord]

Islam

Karizma,

Here is a good question that you have posed. There are two separate avenues on this though. Political or govt. on one hand and Religious / Ethical on the other.
If any take umbrage or insult in this post, it is not intended for it is just a viewpoint.
Of course, the religious aspect of their (Islam) beliefs has been ingrained and a status quo for a few thousand years. Until there is a major upsurge in consciousness among the ruling hiearchy of their various sects, not much is going to change in their fanatical response to 'outside' faiths or religions. Not all Islamic sects are militant and most get along fine with other religions. Some do not as we have seen. However, be careful not to decieve yourself into thinking that the insane, fanatical few mirror the rest of the followers of the islamic faith. Just as not all christians play with snakes during religious sessions.
As always, it's a matter of interpretation of the scriptures that is creating a problem for some.

Please keep in mind that IMHO, there is but one Ultimate God, and it doesn't matter what name it is referred to. As long as you believe in an ultimate supreme being, you have achieved one of the main hurdles that life puts forth. It matters not your individual path, All roads eventually lead to Rome.

Lets start at the basic first stepping stone to 'problems' between these faiths. None of them can seem to agree on the basic premiss of the validity of the prophets
whereby each faith claims that their source of salvation is the only 'true' path to God, thus their prophet the 'one and only true prophet' . Until you can get the various faiths pass this major moat, you are not going to be able to change anything among them because this thought is ingrained in the respective faiths as a basic tenant.

As we all know the respective 'bibles' of each faith were written thousands of years ago. With the exception of the catholic bible which has seen several revisions since it's genesis, these books dealt with the thinking or consciousness At The Time They Were Written and those rules and laws made perfect sense BACK THEN.

Point in case, had the ruling class amongst the priesthood in India not taken into consideration the fact that unless they protect the main source of dairy products by proclaiming the cow sacred, thus a banned source of animal meat protein, millions would have starved. They were aware of this and so the reason for that particular law. It is easily misconstrued, that because the cow is sacred might it not be possible that eating meat is not good for ones spiritual growth?
One has nothing to do with the other, but you can see how something as mundane as this can take a divergence from the logical and transported into the esoteric realm as a given.

The catholic church is quickly loosing its flock due to it's archaic approach to salvation and they are aware of this big time. If masses were still said in Latin like they were 25 years ago, they would be losing even more. No one path has a patent on spiritual salvation, yet each path pretty much says the same thing, unless you believe in our faith along with our prophet's, you are not getting into 'heaven'

Religious faiths, sadly, have been foundations for wars for thousands of years. Present interfaith intolerance driven by politically directed sections, are justifications for extreme behavior to date. In order to change this, there is but one venue. You must bring all these faiths into the 21st century, including their respective 'bibles' and deliver those messages in real time language in today's modern world. Unless this happens, you will not make any headway because without handing these folks something new that truly works for everybody, they will refuse to give up the old ways.

Go to the head of the class if you took a leap and perchance have thought that the religious are being manipulated to foster a perpetual war with no end in sight.
The participants are not able to see the forest for the trees as they cannot distinguish between religious justification and true moral correctness.

 

[Grayson]

Islam

in fear of being Elitist, high-brow or disassociated with reality here, I would proffer a few words here.

There are few, if any, Religions that don't preach a Smite thine enemies philosophy at some point in their respective faiths. Christianity does have a lot to answer for in respect of the current state of the Middle East, as does the old League of Nations in specific arguments regarding Israel. In our few brief and allegedly civilised Millenia on this Earth, more people have died under the banners of their respective Gods than to any other cause, save natural death.

What makes the current Islamic Jihad so terrifying, is this seeming desire of its Warriors to gladly d-ie and to wreak as much pain and suffering as possible on the way out. The root cause of this is faith, which is as counter-productive as it is productive dependant on its application. In Catholic Churches you are taught to have faith in God and to be willing to die for him, being rewarded with a place in Heaven if you d-ie under his banner. This we see as noble and worthy of our respect. But, where does this differ from Islamic faith? Islamic Fundamentalism has perfected the use of the word Infidel, which has no difference in its employment to Untermensch, a term used by the Germans to describe the Russian peoples and their Armies in WWII. This simple word marks them as a cut above the rest of humanity, to the point whereby our Children, Wives, Mothers and Fathers are simply a lower order of life to be exterminated in a blaze of Holy Fire.

Where Fundamentalist Islam differs from the rest of us, under the banners of our respective version of God is this. The Soldiers of Islam have faith, faith in their Religious Leaders, like Khomenni held in the 80's, to be their moral guidance and word of the Lord. In this, they are then disassociated from the acts that they engage in. The Islamic Warrior has abrogated any responsibility for his acts, through this faith. His act of violence is given Divine Rights via the Voice of God on Earth, thus he will go to Paradise and lay with 40,000 Virgins for giving himself over so selflessly and he never has to wrestle with the moral imlications of this.

This is the indoctrination that results in Millions living in fear. The faith is not in the Religion as the Koran does not preach violence as such, so the Warrior is at odds with his teachings here. The Faith is conscripted into a far more sinister service, as the Koran does teach absolute obedience to ones God and his vessels. Hence the acts of violence must be divine and blessed, despite the fact that Islam promotes an understanding of other forms of Religion and tolerance to other peoples.

Because of a distorted and deranged few, many die a divine death and are blessed for cleansing the Earth.

Islam is not at fault here, a few vengeful men are.

Someone once told me that Snakes without heads can never bite you on the arse.

Why are these vengeful men so completely pissed at us that they would distort their own Religion to such ends?

Can it be as shallow as the arguments that we see and hear on an everyday basis, or is there some piece of the puzzle that we are missing? Hitler got away with a lot more based on far more spurious reasoning and all under the Banner of a Christian God. Are we so shallow as a species that we will kill on a scale such a 911 for no great and fathomable reason?