Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

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Zoomerz

Member
Messages
220
Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

Hi All;

OBL.....Public enemy #1? My questions is simply these:

1. If, in fact, OBL was behind the 9-11 attack, where is the proof? I know we've all "heard" that it was he and Al Queada, but, has the "promised" evidence ever been released?

2. If OBL is PE#1, and we are truly engaged in a war on terrorism, why is there little heard anymore in regards to finding him? After all, he supposedly started the "war on terrorism", right?

3. It is true that the U.S. armed and helped train OBL during the Afghanistan/Soviet war. In fact, at that point, OBL could have been described as "an ally" and a "friend" of the U.S......hmmmm OK, so here's the 64 million dollar question.....ready????

What turned our "friend" OBL into our enemy? What changed OBL's attitude towards the U.S.??

Finding the answers to these questions will lead us to a new level of understanding, and the next plane of existence....(just kidding)....However, I have wondered. Have you?

Z-
 

Darkwolf

Active Member
Messages
713
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

What turned our \"friend\" OBL into our enemy? What changed OBL's attitude towards the U.S.??

Quite simply we were no longer useful to him. The general Jihadist mindset in the 70s and 80s said that there were two "Great Satans" The communist bloc, and the west. During the Afgan war, we were arming the afgan mujahadeen, while he was running a group of non afgan holy warriors. We did not arm and train his people, but did arm the afgans. Once the Soviet union fell, he and his cohorts took full credit for the fall of one of the great satans (with the help of the other, suckering enemies into fighting each other is not considered dishonerable in that culture) He then turned his, and his orginazation's attention to the other.
 

BubbuClinton

Junior Member
Messages
133
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

There was also something about Bill Clinton turning his back on them an letting 3 million Afgan local be slaughtered. I heard something about that pissed off Bin laden too.

Bubbu
______________________________________
I feel your pain...I didn't have sex with that lady behind the curtain... Wipe off your dress Monica! -- B. Clinton
 

Darkwolf

Active Member
Messages
713
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

There was also something about Bill Clinton turning his back on them an letting 3 million Afgan local be slaughtered. I heard something about that pissed off Bin laden too.
He would use that as an excuse mabey. Who slaughtered 3 million Afganis under clinton's reign?
 

Zoomerz

Member
Messages
220
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

Darkwolf;

Very nice response post, and at least 90% right (MHO). Everything you site regarding the 70's and 80's Jihadists is most likely correct, along with OBL's declaration of the "Great Satans"....However, I would correct one thing, that OBL's training camps WERE actually built by us, along with the fact that sidewinders (and other U.S. weaponry) were most likely NOT supplied to him from anywhere else. I do believe you are correct in that the FF's were not directly "trained" by us. At any rate, it is clear that we supported his movement, and on friendly terms.....

You ask above about "Who slaughtered 3 million Afghanis under Clinton's reign". Well, Bubbu is stealing my thunder here a bit, but this story is the crux of my "64 million dollar " question, heh....

Between Sep 2000 and Feb 2002, I lived in a small apt complex here in Utah, and above me lived a funny man that looked somewhat like a 50+ yo Teddy Roosevelt, complete with handle bar mustache and wire rimmed glasses. He never really talked much to anyone, and would mysteriously disappear for months at a time. We always knew when he was around, because he drove an olive drab jeep cj5 with a tan top, and had an American flag proudly waving from his antena, heh. Quite an odd fellow.

Anyway, one day (I think it was in late Oct, or early Nov of 2001), shortly after 911, I sorta "bumped" into him when he was unloading a piece of furniture out of the back of his jeep, and so I offered to help him carry it. As it turned out, he wasn't a "recluse" as I had thought, and after carrying the piece upstairs to his apt, he told me about himself...

He was retired from the DOD (a GS worker), who specialized in biological weaponry and high explosives munitions. Turns out, since retirement, he had been "contracted" by another agency (which I will leave unnamed for now), and had been recently involved in munitions identification and disposal in Iraq as a part of a team attached to the UN. It also turned out that the reason he was "missing" all that time was that he was only temporarily in Utah on an assignment investigating Anthrax mail evidence at a local lab, and normally had his primary res in Lake Tahoe, Cal.

So no doubt now, I'm a little more than interested in hearing more (but a serious skeptic!), when the subject of 911 (which had just recently happened) comes up, and he starts laughing, and telling me, "Oh, yeah, well we really pissed him off!" (OBL) he continues, "I probably know him better than any other in this country. I was his primary advisor during the afghan/sov war, and he had reasons for hating us.".......

At this point I'd like to emphasize, I CAN'T PROVE what I'm about to tell you, but as you will see by the end of the story, I have VERY GOOD reasons for believing it to be possible.

Anyway, he continues to tell me about how OBL was reluctant in the beginning to fight the Soviets at all. According to him, OBL was an intensely loyal "family" guardian, who sees himself as the "protector" of "his" people. In other words, he has always felt himself personally responsible for their welfare. He was worried about the women and children especially, and so only agreed to lead the FF resistance IF we would agree to protect the women and children while he fought.

So we agreed, and subsequently built what amounted to a city camp in the southern afghan mountains where the Soviet helicopters would not be able to reach them. That camp was solely supported by us until well after the soviet troops were withdrawn in 1989. In fact, we continued to support this city until late 1993, when, as part of a treaty with Russia, Clinton agreed to withdraw all support to Afghanistan (I'm researching as we speak for exactly which treaty he was talking about, and will advise!). And so, in the grips of winter, 1993, the lights went out on that city/camp, and as a result, 3+ million women and children died.

Pretty incredible, eh? Unconscionable if true. And at this point, I'm a true "non-believer"....That is, until he says, "See that picture over there?", and I look, and there is a black and white approx 13x8 framed picture on his living room wall with him in the center, an army major on his left, and, you guessed it, OBL on his right, with his arm around his shoulder like buddies! The picture was taken in a "desert" location, and I was so amazed I really didn't think to ask all the right questions. But I will say, I'm well versed in photo manipulation and graphics programs, and there's no way this was a fake. At any rate, I'm left now somewhere between wanting to believe the whole thing is a lie, and the uncomfortable knowledge that it might well be true.

So, there you have it. There's no doubt in my mind that you are right about his "Jihad" against the "Great Satan" Darkwolf, and it's well documented that OBL had already declared war against us well before this happened. As a matter of fact, the bombing in Yemen had already occurred by this time, so I'm not trying to suggest we were at fault, yadeyadeya,,,,,,that's horse crap, but it is possible that we really did "piss him off", and caused a human tragedy.

If anyone else has ANY evidence that might prove or disprove this, I'd sure like to hear it! It's been bugging me for a long time.

Regards,
Z-
 

Darkwolf

Active Member
Messages
713
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

Did this location in Utah happen to be near the colorado border, Grand Junction to be precise?

I must say that I find the concept of a city of 3 million in the afghan mountians a little hard to swallow. That is the numbers not the concept in general. I don't find jerking our support from the place to be so unconsionable if he had already done the Cole bombing though.
 

Zoomerz

Member
Messages
220
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

Did this location in Utah happen to be near the colorado border, Grand Junction to be precise?

If you mean where I was living, no. I'm in a suburb of Salt Lake.

Yeah, I agree with you also that 3 million would be far more than a "camp/city" heh. As I say, I can't verify much of it, other than I know what I saw, i.e. the pic. Certainly can't see that many people nesting on the slopes, eh?

Z-
 

Zoomerz

Member
Messages
220
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

btw, I just looked up the Cole bombing, and it was October 12, 2000, so much later.

Z-
 

CaryP

Senior Member
Messages
1,438
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

Found this piece interesting and informative to the subject of this thread. As I've said before, bin Laden is a bought and paid for CIA asset.

Cary

http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=Ne...order=0&thold=0


How the CIA created Osama bin Laden

BY NORM DIXON ? ?\"Throughout the world ... its agents, client states and satellites are on the defensive ? on the moral defensive, the intellectual defensive, and the political and economic defensive. Freedom movements arise and assert themselves. They're doing so on almost every continent populated by man ? in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola, in Kampuchea, in Central America ... [They are] freedom fighters.\"

?Is this a call to jihad (holy war) taken from one of Islamic fundamentalist Osama bin Laden's notorious fatwas? Or perhaps a communique issued by the repressive Taliban regime in Kabul?

?In fact, this glowing praise of the murderous exploits of today's supporters of arch-terrorist bin Laden and his Taliban collaborators, and their holy war against the \"evil empire,\", was issued by US President Ronald Reagan on March 8, 1985. The \"evil empire\" was the Soviet Union, as well as Third World movements fighting US-backed colonialism, apartheid and dictatorship.

?How things change. In the aftermath of a series of terrorist atrocities ? the most despicable being the mass murder of more than 6000 working people in New York and Washington on September 11 ? bin Laden the \"freedom fighter\" is now lambasted by US leaders and the Western mass media as a \"terrorist mastermind\" and an \"evil-doer.\"

?Yet the US government refuses to admit its central role in creating the vicious movement that spawned bin Laden, the Taliban and Islamic fundamentalist terrorists that plague Algeria and Egypt ? and perhaps the disaster that befell New York.

?The mass media has also downplayed the origins of bin Laden and his toxic brand of Islamic fundamentalism. ?

?Mujaheddin

? In April 1978, the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA) seized power in Afghanistan in reaction to a crackdown against the party by that country's repressive government.

?The PDPA was committed to a radical land reform that favoured the peasants, trade union rights, an expansion of education and social services, equality for women and the separation of church and state. The PDPA also supported strengthening Afghanistan's relationship with the Soviet Union.

?Such policies enraged the wealthy semi-feudal landlords, the Muslim religious establishment (many mullahs were also big landlords) and the tribal chiefs. They immediately began organising resistance to the government's progressive policies, under the guise of defending Islam.

?Washington, fearing the spread of Soviet influence (and worse the new government's radical example) to its allies in Pakistan, Iran and the Gulf states, immediately offered support to the Afghan mujaheddin, as the \"contra\" force was known.

?Following an internal PDPA power struggle in December 1979 which toppled Afghanistan's leader, thousands of Soviet troops entered the country to prevent the new government's fall. This only galvanised the disparate fundamentalist factions. Their reactionary jihad now gained legitimacy as a \"national liberation\" struggle in the eyes of many Afghans.

?The Soviet Union was eventually to withdraw from Afghanistan in 1989 and the mujaheddin captured the capital, Kabul, in 1992. ?

?Between 1978 and 1992, the US government poured at least US$6 billion (some estimates range as high as $20 billion) worth of arms, training and funds to prop up the mujaheddin factions. Other Western governments, as well as oil-rich Saudi Arabia, kicked in as much again. Wealthy Arab fanatics, like Osama bin Laden, provided millions more...

Washington's policy in Afghanistan was shaped by US President Jimmy Carter's national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and was continued by his successors. His plan went far beyond simply forcing Soviet troops to withdraw; rather it aimed to foster an international movement to spread Islamic fanaticism into the Muslim Central Asian Soviet republics to destabilise the Soviet Union.

?Brzezinski's grand plan coincided with Pakistan military dictator General Zia ul-Haq's own ambitions to dominate the region. US-run Radio Liberty and Radio Free Europe beamed Islamic fundamentalist tirades across Central Asia (while paradoxically denouncing the \"Islamic revolution\" that toppled the pro-US Shah of Iran in 1979).

?Washington's favoured mujaheddin faction was one of the most extreme, led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. The West's distaste for terrorism did not apply to this unsavoury \"freedom fighter.\" Hekmatyar was notorious in the 1970s for throwing acid in the faces of women who refused to wear the veil.

?After the mujaheddin took Kabul in 1992, Hekmatyar's forces rained US-supplied missiles and rockets on that city ? killing at least 2000 civilians ? until the new government agreed to give him the post of prime minister. Osama bin Laden was a close associate of Hekmatyar and his faction.

?Hekmatyar was also infamous for his side trade in the cultivation and trafficking in opium. Backing of the mujaheddin from the CIA coincided with a boom in the drug business. Within two years, the Afghanistan-Pakistan border was the world's single largest source of heroin, supplying 60% of US drug users.

?In 1995, the former director of the CIA's operation in Afghanistan was unrepentant about the explosion in the flow of drugs: \"Our main mission was to do as much damage as possible to the Soviets... There was a fallout in terms of drugs, yes. But the main objective was accomplished. The Soviets left Afghanistan.\"

? ?Made in the USA

? According to Ahmed Rashid, a correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review, in 1986 CIA chief William Casey committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI proposal to recruit from around the world to join the Afghan jihad. At least 100,000 Islamic militants flocked to Pakistan between 1982 and 1992 (some 60,000 attended fundamentalist schools in Pakistan without necessarily taking part in the fighting).

?John Cooley, a former journalist with the US ABC television network and author of Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, has revealed that Muslims recruited in the US for the mujaheddin were sent to Camp Peary, the CIA's spy training camp in Virginia, where young Afghans, Arabs from Egypt and Jordan, and even some African-American \"black Muslims\" were taught \"sabotage skills.\"

?The November 1, 1998, British Independent reported that one of those charged with the 1998 bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Ali Mohammed, had trained \"bin Laden's operatives\" in 1989.

?These \"operatives\" were recruited at the al Kifah Refugee Centre in Brooklyn, New York, given paramilitary training in the New York area and then sent to Afghanistan with US assistance to join Hekmatyar's forces. Mohammed was a member of the US army's elite Green Berets.

?The program, reported the Independent, was part of a Washington-approved plan called \"Operation Cyclone.\" ?

?In Pakistan, recruits, money and equipment were distributed to the mujaheddin factions by an organisation known as Maktab al Khidamar (Office of Services ? MAK).

?MAK was a front for Pakistan's CIA, the Inter-Service Intelligence Directorate. The ISI was the first recipient of the vast bulk of CIA and Saudi Arabian covert assistance for the Afghan contras. Bin Laden was one of three people who ran MAK. In 1989, he took overall charge of MAK.

?Among those trained by Mohammed were El Sayyid Nosair, who was jailed in 1995 for killing Israeli rightist Rabbi Meir Kahane and plotting with others to bomb New York landmarks, including the World Trade Center in 1993.

?The Independent also suggested that Shiekh Omar Abdel-Rahman, an Egyptian religious leader also jailed for the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, was also part of Operation Cyclone. He entered the US in 1990 with the CIA's approval. A confidential CIA report concluded that the agency was \"partly culpable\" for the 1993 World Trade Center blast, the Independent reported.

?Bin Laden

?Osama bin Laden, one of 20 sons of a billionaire construction magnate, arrived in Afghanistan to join the jihad in 1980. An austere religious fanatic and business tycoon, bin Laden specialised in recruiting, financing and training the estimated 35,000 non-Afghan mercenaries who joined the mujaheddin.

?The bin Laden family is a prominent pillar of the Saudi Arabian ruling class, with close personal, financial and political ties to that country's pro-US royal family.

?Bin Laden senior was appointed Saudi Arabia's minister of public works as a favour by King Faisal. The new minister awarded his own construction companies lucrative contracts to rebuild Islam's holiest mosques in Mecca and Medina. In the process, the bin Laden family company in 1966 became the world's largest private construction company.

?Osama bin Laden's father died in 1968. Until 1994, he had access to the dividends from this ill-gotten business empire. ?

?(Bin Laden junior's oft-quoted personal fortune of US$200-300 million has been arrived at by the US State Department by dividing today's value of the bin Laden family net worth ? estimated to be US$5 billion ? by the number of bin Laden senior's sons. A fact rarely mentioned is that in 1994 the bin Laden family disowned Osama and took control of his share.)

?Osama's military and business adventures in Afghanistan had the blessing of the bin Laden dynasty and the reactionary Saudi Arabian regime. His close working relationship with MAK also meant that the CIA was fully aware of his activities.

?Milt Bearden, the CIA's station chief in Pakistan from 1986 to 1989, admitted to the January 24, 2000, New Yorker that while he never personally met bin Laden, \"Did I know that he was out there? Yes, I did ... [Guys like] bin Laden were bringing $20-$25 million a month from other Saudis and Gulf Arabs to underwrite the war. And that is a lot of money. It's an extra $200-$300 million a year. And this is what bin Laden did.\"

?In 1986, bin Laden brought heavy construction equipment from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan. Using his extensive knowledge of construction techniques (he has a degree in civil engineering), he built \"training camps,\" some dug deep into the sides of mountains, and built roads to reach them.

?These camps, now dubbed \"terrorist universities\" by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

?Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, \"The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism ? car bombing and so on ? so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.\"

?Al Qaeda (the Base), bin Laden's organisation, was established in 1987-88 to run the camps and other business enterprises. It is a tightly-run capitalist holding company ? albeit one that integrates the operations of a mercenary force and related logistical services with \"legitimate\" business operations.

?Bin Laden has simply continued to do the job he was asked to do in Afghanistan during the 1980s ? fund, feed and train mercenaries. All that has changed is his primary customer. Then it was the ISI and, behind the scenes, the CIA. Today, his services are utilised primarily by the reactionary Taliban regime.

?Bin Laden only became a \"terrorist\" in US eyes when he fell out with the Saudi royal family over its decision to allow more than 540,000 US troops to be stationed on Saudi soil following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

?When thousands of US troops remained in Saudi Arabia after the end of the Gulf War, bin Laden's anger turned to outright opposition. He declared that Saudi Arabia and other regimes ? such as Egypt ? in the Middle East were puppets of the US, just as the PDPA government of Afghanistan had been a puppet of the Soviet Union.

?He called for the overthrow of these client regimes and declared it the duty of all Muslims to drive the US out of the Gulf states. In 1994, he was stripped of his Saudi citizenship and forced to leave the country. His assets there were frozen.

?After a period in Sudan, he returned to Afghanistan in May 1996. He refurbished the camps he had helped build during the Afghan war and offered the facilities and services ? and thousands of his mercenaries ? to the Taliban, which took power that September.

?Today, bin Laden's private army of non-Afghan religious fanatics is a key prop of the Taliban regime. ?

?Prior to the devastating September 11 attack on the twin towers of World Trade Center, US ruling-class figures remained unrepentant about the consequences of their dirty deals with the likes of bin Laden, Hekmatyar and the Taliban. Since the awful attack, they have been downright hypocritical.

?In an August 28, 1998, report posted on MSNBC, Michael Moran quotes Senator Orrin Hatch, who was a senior member of the Senate Intelligence Committee which approved US dealings with the mujaheddin, as saying he would make \"the same call again,\" even knowing what bin Laden would become.

?\"It was worth it. Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union.\"

?Hatch today is one of the most gung-ho voices demanding military retaliation. ?

?Another face that has appeared repeatedly on television screens since the attack has been Vincent Cannistrano, described as a former CIA chief of \"counter-terrorism operations.\"

?Cannistrano is certainly an expert on terrorists like bin Laden, because he directed their \"work.\" He was in charge of the CIA-backed Nicaraguan contras during the early 1980s. In 1984, he became the supervisor of covert aid to the Afghan mujaheddin for the US National Security Council.

?The last word goes to Zbigniew Brzezinski: \"What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?\" ?
 

Zoomerz

Member
Messages
220
Re: Osama Bin Laden - PE#1

Great stuff Cary. I've read this before, and it's a very well-rounded synopsis. I live in Utah, and can't wait to be rid of Orin Hatch. He's one of the "boys" for sure. Tell me again why we don't have term limits in Congress? 28 years is quite long enough, thank you!

re: OBL

Sorry I went fly fishing on the "Green" up by the Wyoming border, and didn't have a chance to follow up on that treaty until last night....

Looks like my timing was WAY off on when this "abandonment" might have occurred. While investigating the "treaty" Clinton was negotiating at the time, the ONLY treaty I came across with Yeltsin was the Start I, II, and III effort in September 1998. So it probably would have happened sometime shortly after this meeting, which makes sense, rather than 1993. As I said, this was a single conversation I had back in 2001, and my details might not be accurate.

Check out : U.S. President Bill Clinton in Moscow

http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?2644

I can just imagine the olive branches being offered, and the agenda definitely was related. So although this doesn't prove much, it does present plausible support. hmmmmm.....

Z-
 

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