Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

[pauli]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

I thought I would open a thread to talk about philosophical discrepancies in the JT story from pre and post 9/11. I wanted to see if there are other people out there who question the story material - not in the sense of debunking it per se, but in the sense of talking about whether they think, or feel, the material may be a bit dated since 9/11.

Ok, I suppose I will have to give an example of what I mean...

John Titor talks about a Civil War brought on by gov't intrusion into the lives of people through a series of Waco type events. Pre 9/11 such a concept was not unthinkable, since we only had examples of Waco, Ruby Ridge & the Elian Gonzales stand-off. Post 9/11, there is the whole issue of terrorism - which to me is a bit of a different animal. While you can say that these Waco events could be stretched out into terrorist types of things, it seems a bit of a stretch.

You can also say the Democratic/Republican Left/Right issue is the basis of the gov't turning against its citizens, but that does not seem to be what Titor was alluding to. I believe Phoenix has already posted that reference in one of the other threads. Titor was asked about that and he turned it down. He clearly said it was the gov't against the people, not the Dems against the Repubs.

I guess what I am working toward here is, "Who besides me thinks the JT material fits more into the world of Sept. 10th 2001 than the current world in which we now live?"

Also, if you have questions about other aspects of the story, from a philosophical basis, feel free to chime in. I have opened this thread to discuss such matters, whether they support the story or not.

 

[pauli]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Darn. I just realized where I was going with this... The discrepancies of which I speak are internal - such as the John Titor Story and the Real World.

i.e. Terrorism vs. Waco.

Civil War based upon Gov't vs. people or Civil War based upon hatred between Dems. & Repubs (or the current rift in politics)

That sort of thing. Sorry, I was trying to get the idea across and I was finding it a difficult thing to do.

 

[Snow]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Hi Pauli - Good post.

My first thought was "Are we really sure that 9/11 was not one humongous Waco-type event?" Are we all sure our government wasn't in some way involved in the perpetration of this act of terrorism? I am not.

Maybe I read too many conspiracy sites. When this story first emerged, I was actually posting in the Art Bell BBS. I just shrugged at John Titor back then. To me the JT story is more relevant today than it was when he told it. He said we of this day are not remembered kindly in the future. I feel that already - doesn't anyone else? I feel like somewhere this country took a wrong turn. I feel dirty. I feel like an ugly American. I feel like we have changed into something we shouldn't be so proud of.

He really has a very small window for all these things to happen in. 2005-2006? On Sept. 10th, 2001 could you have imagined that the Patriot Act would pass? Some say yes - that it was in the works already - just waiting for the right moment - well the right moment came. I don't think it could have happened without a 9/11 like event.

Is it so hard to imagine civil war these days? The polarization of our society is unfolding before our eyes . . . and it isn't a Republican vs. Democrat division. The difference between them is barely perceptible to me. The polarizations I see are Security vs. Freedom and Nationalism vs. Humanitarianism. There is also a kind of patriotism going on that really spooks me. Patriotism, to me, doesn't mean to revere the US Government and its officials to the point of near worship (which is something I see happening all the time) but to revere the Constitution and the principles of Liberty.

Ok sorry . . . I got carried away . . .

From the edge or maybe a little beyond . . .

Snow Fire Watches

 

[pauli]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Hey SnowFireWatches!

My first thought was \"Are we really sure that 9/11 was not one humongous Waco-type event?\" Are we all sure our government wasn't in some way involved in the perpetration of this act of terrorism? I am not.

Ok, call me naiev and all, but I am not ready to see our gov't as being that bad. It is possible, I know that, but I am not yet that cynical. I would have to see more evidence to support it first.

I feel like somewhere this country took a wrong turn. I feel dirty. I feel like an ugly American. I feel like we have changed into something we shouldn't be so proud of.

Our country may have taken a wrong turn somewhere, but as to it being this?? Again, I am not this cynical yet. In the overall picture, we have a clash of ideas in the Western world today and in the end one of the philosophies will come out on top. Here is a link to an article that spells it out better than I can. (I could do it and all, but why reinvent the wheel??)
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisp...p20030225.shtml

He really has a very small window for all these things to happen in. 2005-2006? On Sept. 10th, 2001 could you have imagined that the Patriot Act would pass? Some say yes - that it was in the works already - just waiting for the right moment - well the right moment came. I don't think it could have happened without a 9/11 like event.

As to the Patriot Act, I am in a "wait and see" mode. I agree it could be misused, however, we have had Presidents in the past restrict Civil Liberties and when the situation was over, they reinstated them without a problem. There is precedent for differences between war time rules and peace time rules. If, however, I start seeing the sorts of gross abuses mentioned by Titor... I will not keep my eyes or my mouth closed.

\"The polarization of our society is unfolding before our eyes . . . and it isn't a Republican vs. Democrat division. The difference between them is barely perceptible to me. The polarizations I see are Security vs. Freedom and Nationalism vs. Humanitarianism. There is also a kind of patriotism going on that really spooks me. \"

Ah yes, the polarization issue. (btw I am not saying that in a condescending or dismissive way.) I also see the polarization in our society. Whether we like it or not, there are two different value systems at work in the US right now. In fact those systems came into being in the 1960's and have continued to this day. There are those who adhere to a more, or less, socialistic sort of frame of reference, and those who do not. The divide runs down a philosophical, religious and political basis. The article listed above covers that. It is truly a wound which has not healed. It also, to my mind, has a spiritual basis. I can tell you on the other side there is a real fear about those whose patriotism includes the UN. We are not too happy about a US gov't that seeks to bring the UN, a governing body which is doubtful at best into American politics. (for instance, note how their "peacekeepers" are the first to run when the bullets begin to fly. I have heard them called the "United Nothing" by people in the ME.) So, yes, you are correct there is a polarization.

Oh, I have something here I thought might be interesting. It came from a man who said he had a Near Death Experience and was given 13 visions (in the form of boxes) regarding future events. The man's name is Dannion Brinkley. He mentioned the possibility of a WWIII. I will quote one of his paragraphs under the title of The Final Visions:

\"Scenes from World War III came to life before me. I was in a hundred places at once, from deserts to forests, & saw a world filled with fighting & chaos. Somehow it was clear that this final war, an Armageddon if you will, was caused by fear. In one of the most puzzling visions of all, I saw an army of women in black robes & veils marching through a European city. \"The fear these people are feeling is an unnecessary one,\" said the Being of Light. \"But it is a fear so great that humans will give up all freedoms in the name of safety.\"

(bolded quote added by me)

Of course, this bit caught my eye because I read it months after having read all about the Titor stuff. It seemed kind of prophetic in its own way. So, I guess this comes back to the paranoia stuff I wrote in one of my other posts. People are afraid of the other people's (other sides?) patriotism and how that is expressed; but that fear is kind of like the people in the burning building - everyone is rushing out at the same time in a panic, thinking only of their own skins, and the result is that a great (unnecessary) tragedy results.

 

[Deebokonon]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Yes Snow Fire and Pauli,

I like this thread. When I first read the JT material last April the ?Waco Texas? s1mile hit me hard. I saw that what he was saying was very scary. His words implied that the government (AFE) would start staging preemptive operations against every organized group of true patriots under the newly defined meaning of terrorist. Anyone who is anti (AFE)

Yes, the Sept. event in NY set the stage for what he implied.

The citizens who are not lost in pop media gullibility would begin to see that the underlying political ideology is as John said ??the enemy of the government is YOU? and me.

Also I can only weep for the people of this country who believe that John Kerry is an answer to GB and the NWO crowd. It is sad that the voters cannot see that both candidates are members of the same evil club.

Every direct piece of factual evidence around the big 2001 event in NY smells of an (AFE) Op. Gullible Americans are now swallowing the terrorist hype hook line and sinker.

However, there are enough brave souls in enough high places who will be able to see, hopefully by 2005, that their very liberty is at stake.

Deebokonon

 

[Deebokonon]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Pauli,

If I showed you the best sources for the evidence would you examine it carefully and beyond your naivety?

Deebokonon

 

[HackimerRob]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Oh no it's Deebo! (the movie "Friday" anyone?)
Hi deebs, please link the sources you're talking about here.

the issues you are all raising are quite huge.

They are also what oddly enough brought me to begin posting on the old board. Needless to say, I've had quite the conversations about this both on this board, and around my life. Thing is, the split, as big as it is, would not take much to become violent. I mean look at human nature. Look at how fast a crowd at a soccer game, A SPORTING EVENT, which has such a rift as part of it's nature can turn into a riot.

I for one have seen a political discussion in a local bar almost come to blows. Since when have politics made the average drinker angry enough to punch each other?

 

[Judge Bean]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Originally posted by Hackimer@ Rob,Aug 10 2004, 08:25 PM

I for one have seen a political discussion in a local bar almost come to blows. Since when have politics made the average drinker angry enough to punch each other?

​

Not since about 1970. In fact, at that time, you didn't even need to say anything to get some action. All you had to do was walk into a bar with hair at or below your collar.

 

[CaryP]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

I for one have seen a political discussion in a local bar almost come to blows. Since when have politics made the average drinker angry enough to punch each other?

Seems I'm following you around today Hack. I'll try not to step on your heels. It ain't the politics, it's the alcohol, testosterone and righteous opinions that drive the fighting. Been there over stupider s&%t than politics. But then again, I'm 1/4 Irish, about 1/2 French and 1/4 Cajun French, so "fightings in the blood" as my mother used to say. But the rift is palpable, more so than I've ever seen in my 50 years. You got a good point Hack.

Cary

 

[pauli]

Philosophical descrepancies in JT story

Pauli,

If I showed you the best sources for the evidence would you examine it carefully and beyond your naivety?

Deebokonon

Hi Deebokonon, I am always open to listen to another frame of reference, however, I tend to keep a pretty level head about things - so, just letting you know it will take a bit for me to change my mind. But, once I have changed my mind I am serious about it. This is why I am not a big person for conspiracy theories; they tend to be rather emotionally loaded with dots connected haphazardly and little more than paranoia to back them. That being said, I would welcome you to post what you would like to say.

Also, I want others to be honest on this thread. As far as I am concerned, I know I don't know everything so I am open to hearing other people's thoughts. I expect there to be a fair share of disagreement on these boards. The only thing I ask of everyone is that we agree to disagree with each other in a respectful manner.

Hey, where is my favorite smiley from the other board? It is the grey one that screams. I just love it. It always makes me :lol: