Question concerning coordinates in space.

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MORG

New Member
Messages
15
Question concerning coordinates in space.

Everyone knows that the earth revolves around the sun and that each year, on the same day, the earth is roughly the same location in relation to the sun. Quite conveniently, nearly every time travel story involves someone ending up in the future or in the past on the exact same date, but a different year. This compensates for the location of earth in the orbit. What would happen if it weren't the same date (based on this idea)?

For example, I travel back in time to July 15, 1995. The earth's orbit in relation to the sun isn't where it would be if I had gone back to July 25th, 1995, therefore, would the time warp tunnel place me in space in exactly the location that the earth will be in in another 10 days or would it conveniently place me on earth in relation to the location of the poles from which I started?

That's just one point to be made.

Everyone also knows (most at least), that the solar system itself is moving through space at incredible speeds. We don't really notice it here. It takes quite a long time for our relation to other stars to become really noticable. Millions of years in most cases.
Now let's say I travel back in time to that same date. July 15, 1995. Not only is the earth not in the same location in relation to the Sun, the but the Sun is not at the same spacial coordinates that it was (or will be based on start travel time), on July 25th, 2004. Therefore, when I go through the time warp tunnel, not only will I not be on earth in the same location I started from in 2004, but I may not even be near the solar system at all. Poof! I go off into space.

I understand that it's very convenient for everyone to assume that they will materialize somehow in the past or future exactly the same place on earth they started. But in actuality, even if you time traveled only a few seconds, your location would not remain constant in relation to the earth.

This problem, it would seem, would make time travel quite unfeasable. Possible perhaps to travel through time, but quite troublesome. Materialize in space somewhere out there. Materialize within the earth, within the sun? That wouldn't be much fun, now would it?

Any thoughts on this are quite welcome. Just something I was pondering over dinner last night.
 

Cosmo

Senior Member
Messages
2,865
Question concerning coordinates in space.

I've thought of this too.... Which is why I prefer the method of Time Dilation. It's all relative to the viewer....

An example of this is if you're about to get in a car wreck, and time seems to slow down.

Another guy I read about said that time slowed down so much for him while being struck by lightning that he watched the lightning enter his arm, slowly seperate his tissue from each other, and carbonize his cells.

TimeBender, on another thread, even mistakenly invented such a machine that could achieve this through electromagnetics.
 

Phoenix

Active Member
Messages
622
Question concerning coordinates in space.

MORG, the problem only exists on the premise of Newton's idea of absolute space.
http://physics.about.com/cs/alternativeide...fication_rk.htm
Sir Isaac Newton believed that space and time were absolute concepts. That cause and effect occurred instantaneously (action at a distance). Furthermore, he considered time and space to be separate and distinct concepts. In the Principia, he wrote (pages 13 to 14) that absolute time is distinguished from relative time by the equation or correction of the vulgar time. He stated that the true or equable progress of absolute time is liable to no change. Place is a part of space which a body takes up and is according to the space either absolute or relative. Absolute time flows without regard to anything external. Absolute space remains without regard to anything external similar and immovable. Relative time is some sensible and external measure of duration by the means of motion (i.e., the Earth revolving about the Sun). Relative space as well is some movable dimension or measure of the absolute spaces (i.e., the Earth moves in relation to celestial bodies but never into dimensions not shared by all). Newton's description of absolute space attributed inertia to absolute space revolving about an object which caused centrifugal force. But how could empty space exert a force on a mass such as the Earth?

The experiment of Michelson-Morley was designed to prove the "ether" or absolute space that light flows through. The experiment failed.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../morley.html#c1

In Einstein's theory of relativity there is no absolute space, space is relative to a reference point.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../conrel.html#c1


What the Michelson-Morley experiment proved was there was no objective point of reference to say how far a given object moved over a given time. Thus, according to relativity, to say that a time machine would wind up away from it's spot on earth because the earth moved is an invalid Newtonian concept.

This of coarse assumes that Eintein's theory of relativity is correct.

If this qualm could cause you to give credibility to a true time traveler MORG then read this.
http://www.johntitor.com/Nov2000.htm
What's the largest technical problem when traveling in time?

The hard part of traveling through time is not the bending of gravity but the plotting of your course and holding to the basic \"position\" in your environment. This is done through a system called VGL (variable gravity lock).

Basically, the unit takes a reading of the local gravity and samples it during the \"trip\" in pulses. If the gravity is too far off, the unit stops or reverses itself to the last sample period where the readings were correct. If there is some sort of failure, the unit shuts down and drops out to where ever you may be.
John Titor, and those of his "authentic" group Alexander-Maxwell. Do talk about this exact problem you bring up.
 

StarLord

Senior Member
Messages
3,187
Question concerning coordinates in space.

I was wondering when someone would bring this up again.

Earth Rotation speed 1,000 mph

Earth Orbital Speed 67,000 mph

Sun's Speed 45,000 mph

Towards Lambda Herculis, up and at an angle moving away from the eliptical plane. So, imagine a cork screw at an angle.
The sun has only made 20 full orbits since it's creation. It takes Aprox 66 million years for the sun to complete a full sine wave (top full motion away from the eliptical plane then back down to full swing, bottom of eliptical plane as far as gravitational forces react to send it back up): a sine wave.

Keeping this in mind, I find it so very hard to believe that they can pinpoint, so one could travel in time. Look at the problem they have getting a lander/rover to mars in our same time. (of course, it's the martians that keep messing with them)
 

lev

Junior Member
Messages
144
Question concerning coordinates in space.

Originally posted by Phoenix@Jul 26 2004, 06:44 AM
John Titor, and those of his \"authentic\" group Alexander-Maxwell. Do talk about this exact problem you bring up.

::.. Phoenix tell us how these two characters became "authentic" to you including the posts that convinced you in another thread if you can ..::.. Also, can you please quote both of their posts clarifying Boomer's vague VGL details? ..::.. Cool stuff ..::
 

Phoenix

Active Member
Messages
622
Question concerning coordinates in space.

Originally posted by lev+Jul 27 2004, 01:59 PM--><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Phoenix@Jul 26 2004, 06:44 AM
John Titor, and those of his "authentic" group Alexander-Maxwell. Do talk about this exact problem you bring up.

::.. Phoenix tell us how these two characters became "authentic" to you including the posts that convinced you in another thread if you can ..::.. Also, can you please quote both of their posts clarifying Boomer's vague VGL details? ..::.. Cool stuff ..::
[/b][/quote]
Snow, could you do this for me?

Sorry lev, it would require a rather intensive search of their lengthy logs. It is possible though.
 

Phoenix

Active Member
Messages
622
Question concerning coordinates in space.

Originally posted by StarLord@Jul 26 2004, 04:37 PM
I was wondering when someone would bring this up again.

Earth Rotation speed 1,000 mph

Earth Orbital Speed ?67,000 mph

Sun's Speed ? ? ? 45,000 mph ?

Towards Lambda Herculis, up and at an angle moving away from the eliptical plane. So, imagine a cork screw at an angle.
The sun has only made 20 full orbits since it's creation. It takes Aprox 66 million years for the sun to complete a full sine wave (top full motion away from the eliptical plane then back down to full swing, bottom of eliptical plane as far as gravitational forces react to send it back up): a sine wave.

Keeping this in mind, I find it so very hard to believe that they can pinpoint, so one could travel in time. Look at the problem they have getting a lander/rover to mars in our same time. (of course, it's the martians that keep messing with them)
Let me explain the Michelson-Morley experiment.

Lets say you have a boat crossing a flowing river. Lets say the boat goes 10 miles an hour and the river is going 5 miles an hour. Lets say you go out and come back a distance of 10 miles, one trip you go across the river, the other trip you go down and back up the river.

On the trip going down and back up the river you will be traveling 15 miles per hour while you work with the current and 5 miles per hour when you work against the current. It would thus take 2 and 2/3rds of an hour to go with and against the current.

Going across the current the boat will have to compensate being thrown off coarse 5 miles per hour at a right angle. The increase of would be found by the Pythagorean theorem. Sqrt(10^2 + 5^2)= about 11 miles. It would thus take the boat 1.1 hours to go back and forth on the side ways trip. Or 2.2 hours.

There is thus to be expected a difference of time depending on which direction the board goes based on the drag.

The Michelson-Morley experiment is based on the idea that light experiences a like drag, or displacement, because of the coordinates of space. Light should be slightly thrown off coarse because the earth is moving in the manner of
Earth Rotation speed 1,000 mph

Earth Orbital Speed ?67,000 mph

Sun's Speed ? ? ? 45,000 mph ?
And our galaxy's motion in the universe.

The Michelson-Morley interferometer is basically the boat scenario done with light. What they discovered though was that no displacement ever occurred, no matter how they fine tuned their instrument, no matter what time of day or day of year they tried it. They were left concluding the idea of a coordinate system that things would be displaced on was an invalid idea. Einstein started postulating his theory of relativity without absolute Newtonian space and it helped to explain the results of the experiment.
 

Snow

Member
Messages
469
Question concerning coordinates in space.

Originally posted by Phoenix+Jul 28 2004, 08:25 AM--><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 01:59 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Phoenix
@Jul 26 2004, 06:44 AM
John Titor, and those of his "authentic" group Alexander-Maxwell. Do talk about this exact problem you bring up.


::.. Phoenix tell us how these two characters became "authentic" to you including the posts that convinced you in another thread if you can ..::.. Also, can you please quote both of their posts clarifying Boomer's vague VGL details? ..::.. Cool stuff ..::
Snow, could you do this for me?

Sorry lev, it would require a rather intensive search of their lengthy logs. It is possible though.
[snapback]5656[/snapback]​
[/b][/quote]

Grrr - I have been working on Phoenix request of me and I guess I had too much going on in MSWord becasue it stopped responding and I lost my documents. I will start over but one question - who is Boomer?

Right over the edge just now :cry:

SFW
 

DadOf5

Member
Messages
291
Question concerning coordinates in space.

Originally posted by Snow Fire Watches@Jul 28 2004, 03:16 PM
I will start over but one question - who is Boomer?

Right over the edge just now :cry:

SFW

"Boomer" is a nickname that was given to Titor.
 

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