Paul J. Lyon
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Warning Signs, Loss of Rights and Waco-type events
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Paul Posted: Feb 8 2004, 07:44 PM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
Associated Press Sunday February 8, 2004
Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, and four peace activists were served with federal subpoenas regarding a Nov. 15th forum at the university.
The subpoenas are govt. demands for the production of documents relative to the forum and to the actions of the groups National Lawyers Guild, the Catholic Peace Ministry, and the Iowa Peace Network, but are aimed specifically at the individuals, one of whom had visited Iraq in 2002.
The federal grand jury would be used to investigate the demanded documents and information as a way of monitoring and curtailing Constitutionally-protected activities, including freedom of speech and association, and undercuts the American tradition of political dissent and protest.
One of the individuals said "This is exactly what people feared would happen. The civil liberties of everyone in this country are in danger. How we handle that here in Iowa is very important on how things are going to happen in this country from now on."
Comment:
There is no valid legal reason for the subpoenas or the criminal investigation they are meant to conjure from nothing. There is only a political reason.
The present administration is seeking to dampen dissent, to quiet the objections to its plans. The plans are not just to make war, but those who object to war mark themselves as opposed to the administration. The plans include a complete overhaul of the American criminal justice system, and are well underway.
That they are well underway is evident from what must be read between the lines in the news item:
1. The govt. is no longer required to state with specificity the nature of the criminal charges, or the suspect's connection to the alleged crimes, and the investigation can be conducted without reference to any specific crimes having been committed. This is partly a result of the secrecy built into the grand jury procedure, but it is also the result of the secret force of the Patriot Acts. No one has accused, or could accuse, the Iowa activists of having committed any crime, and, now, no one needs to before "investigating" them.
2. You will not see such procedures taken against Halliburton, any major oil company, any major power or utility company, or govt. defense contractor, even though all or any of these are suspected by the govt. of corruption or other criminal conduct. The subpoena power has become cloaked in secrecy and can be directed selectively at political opponents. No one knows the scope of the current use of this mutant subpoena power, because another clause of the Patriot Acts forbids disclosure by the subpoena'd corporation or individual of the fact that records or information has been demanded.
3. The subpoenas can be issued without the review or approval of a magistrate-- part of the new mutant "administrative letter" type subpoena. You cannot be told what you are suspected of, because to divulge the information would supposedly compromise national security and alert others of your ilk. Since we can't find the t**s, anyone is a suspected or potential t**, so we can't tell you if we think you are one, or why. Get it?
4. You don't need to be a t** or criminal to be a target of this new regime of ill**** and unconstitutional "investigation." If, in the opinion of unidentified bureaucrats or FBI agents (or CIA agents) you are somehow connected to an alleged t** or t** organization, by aiding or abetting them, you are just as much a target as an actual t**. Combine this with standing law about conspiracies, which states that a conspirator doesn't need to know all of his co-conspirators or what they are all doing, and the circle of potential "criminals" widens.
Please use this area to post any new developments you may spot, even if you think they may not be very important at first glance.
Top
Anoah Posted: Feb 8 2004, 08:25 PM
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suppression of free speech
This article is a few weeks old and very interesting especially as it comes from a conservative viewpoint. The last paragraph was spooky.
--------------------
SOCIALISM: THE FEAR THAT SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE CAN HELP THEMSELVES
VOTE LIBERTARIAN
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 8 2004, 08:45 PM
Impeach All Three Branches
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Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
Excellent piece. Everyone please read the article. It has some incredible statements from Ashcroft, and shows how long they have been aiming in this direction.
Top
Phoenix Posted: Feb 9 2004, 02:43 AM
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Anoah, the link doesn't work for me.
Top
opmmur Posted: Feb 9 2004, 03:00 AM
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Phoenix,
It is working OK
Professor Opmmur biggrin.gif
--------------------
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Paul Posted: Feb 10 2004, 12:08 AM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
U.S. Supreme C-ourt, Jan. 26:
Law enforcement comes to your home to arrest you following a Grand Jury indictment, you let them in, they tell you why they are there, and you reply in a way that incriminates you.
Under the usual rules, they have elicited an incriminating statement from you without giving you your Miranda rights, and so cannot use the statement against you in trial. You are not free to leave; they have elicited the statement from you; it is the same as squeezing a confession from an innocent person. The rules were designed to protect an innocent person from overbearing officers.
Under the new rule as of Jan. 26, the statement may be used against you because it isn't considered to be the result of "interrogation."
Under the new rule, it's OK to get a confession from an accused person any way you can get it, presumably, so long as you don't ask any questions to get it.
In one blow, 40 years of Supreme C-ourt law and the protection of our rights down the drain.
Remember that these rights are everyone's, not just criminals'.
Paul
--------------------
Paul J. Lyon
Top
iooqxpooi Posted: Feb 10 2004, 01:07 AM
One in need to be taught Physics
Group: Members
Posts: 337
Member No.: 453
Joined: 6-February 04
That is why, once I am done with my studies in my "Gifted and Above" School
-p, it's actually a Gifted school, but there are people hat are above Gifted...duh), I will...MOVE TO CANADA!
hehehe
--------------------
"Imagination and Creativity without Knowledge will get you nowhere."-Yours truly
(I should know)
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 11 2004, 02:44 AM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
Canada will be no refuge.
The new US budget allots just over 10% of what is spent on the Pentagon on "response to or prevention of" domestic t** attacks. This is the war on t*m, which was begun by and is waged by constant reference to the threat of domestic t**r attacks. The war is being waged on the other side of the world by the military, while the police and fire departments in the "homeland" suffer 1/3 budget cuts this year.
However, vigilance across the shared US-Canadian border is increasing, and the Patriot Acts are being enforced on the Eastern seaboard to harass immigrants. Beginning in the summer of 2002, citizens of Pakistani descent had their business records ransacked in Pennsylvania, Georgia, and New York. Federal agents recently raided restaurants and a homeless shelter in Portland, Maine, supposedly trying to stem the floodtide of Hispanic migrants.
These raids and searches could not have been conducted under old standing American Constitutional law. There has always been the Alien Act, but that was clearly not meant to refer to citizens, and offers no precedent for demanding "papers" from travelers at a bus station to find out who is or is not a citizen. There is no precedent: it is the raw exercise of police power.
They are adding 1,000 federal agents to the Canadian border. Why do you think they are doing this? Remember that there is no longer a "border patrol"-- the INS has been reorganized and falls under the Homeland Security Department now, the Secretary of which is a cabinet position. Remember also that the rights of an accused are the same in our country traditionally whether or not he is a citizen, unless he is a citizen of a nation of which we are at war.
A provision of Patriot Act II which they didn't get passed was to allow the govt. to designate individuals as foreign states.
Paul
Top
koaon Posted: Feb 11 2004, 06:10 PM
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Hmm, scary stuff.
Do you think Hillary Clinton might be the Independant/Democrat that Alexander and Maxwel say will win the election in 2008?
Given all the conspiracy theories linking Bill Clinton to the NWO/Illuminati?
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Phoenix Posted: Feb 11 2004, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE
Do you think Hillary Clinton might be the Independant/Democrat that Alexander and Maxwel say will win the election in 2008?
Interesting that you would suggest this Koaon. I did suggest this to KPAX in another thread. Especially as Titor left it up in the air about the gender of the person to follow the president elect of 2004. How ever I believe both Alexander and Maxwell have stated clearly that the 2008 elect will be a male.
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 11 2004, 06:23 PM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
There is no trouble linking any candidate this year or in 2008 with the "invisible govt." network: party affiliation means nothing.
This election is the one that will make all the difference. 2008 will be too late to save the "nation of laws" we have built over the course of 375 years, if the current trend in authoritarianism continues. If Bush is reelected, our form of govt. will not last another 4 years (if the anti-Constitutional trend continues).
On the other hand, Bush's people are somewhat still responsive to dissent, though less so now than even 2 years ago. They are very sensitive to "publicity" about some of their plans: for good reason. When the spotlight falls on them, they scatter somewhat. And now, of course, they are preoccupied with November.
I do not credit Alexander, knowing not everything about him; only I wonder why he comes forward now at the time of the Titor buzz rather than nearer the time of Titor's messages, and suspect that he is a fake for this and other reasons. Clinton is actually a good candidate, and I would vote for her, but I understand that almost anyone like that may be a tool of unseen hands.
Top
koaon Posted: Feb 12 2004, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (Paul @ Feb 11 2004, 08:23 PM)
There is no trouble linking any candidate this year or in 2008 with the "invisible govt." network: party affiliation means nothing...
...I understand that almost anyone like that may be a tool of unseen hands.
Paul,
If you believe this, then why do you also believe that this election is the one that will make all the difference?
If any candidate could potentially be as bad as Bush, or worse, does it really matter who the actual "President" is?
--------------------
THE TIME TRAVEL FORUM
time travel forum
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 13 2004, 01:26 AM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
It's a matter of pace, of timing.
Bush has demonstrated a willingness to squelch rights.
Others seem to have restraint.
Bush I suspect will do more drastic things if he thinks he's going to lose.
Others mayl try less oppressive measures first to keep their power base.
Certain individuals and departments (Cheney, Pentagon, Defense, etc.) are more predictable than others, and some of these remain in place despite the party in power.
Bush is becoming a more predictable element the longer he stays in power, and the prediction is not good. Kerry you cannot predict. No one is above suspicion.
Top
Phoenix Posted: Feb 13 2004, 01:32 AM
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I hope Howard Dean becomes the democratic candidate. I happen to not like Kerry.
Top
hardtomakeaname Posted: Feb 13 2004, 04:03 AM
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stop me if i make no sense, but from what i understand kerry is all for gun control, gay marraiges etc, etc. things that will quicken our collapse as a country, things bush has already set in motion, and its not like we can trust our govt. to protect our rights seeing that theyre being stripped slowly deliberately and daily. the choices have been made and in our reality telvision show of a country we have no choice but to sit and watch as you all know.
im not sure if titor has either seen it or hit the nail on the head with his predictions but i doubt were in for a treat and i believe that the times are drastic. choices being made by those with control are not in anyones best interest.
i dont think anyone should worry though because its not like weve ever really had control over our situation the time for revolution is now, and if bush just so happens to be in office for another term the vast majority that didnt vote him in is going to hopefully wake up and take some time to reflect on what is going on here.
Top
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Pages: (6) [1] 2 3 ... Last » ( Go to first unread post )
Warning Signs, Loss of Rights and Waco-type events
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Paul Posted: Feb 8 2004, 07:44 PM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
Associated Press Sunday February 8, 2004
Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, and four peace activists were served with federal subpoenas regarding a Nov. 15th forum at the university.
The subpoenas are govt. demands for the production of documents relative to the forum and to the actions of the groups National Lawyers Guild, the Catholic Peace Ministry, and the Iowa Peace Network, but are aimed specifically at the individuals, one of whom had visited Iraq in 2002.
The federal grand jury would be used to investigate the demanded documents and information as a way of monitoring and curtailing Constitutionally-protected activities, including freedom of speech and association, and undercuts the American tradition of political dissent and protest.
One of the individuals said "This is exactly what people feared would happen. The civil liberties of everyone in this country are in danger. How we handle that here in Iowa is very important on how things are going to happen in this country from now on."
Comment:
There is no valid legal reason for the subpoenas or the criminal investigation they are meant to conjure from nothing. There is only a political reason.
The present administration is seeking to dampen dissent, to quiet the objections to its plans. The plans are not just to make war, but those who object to war mark themselves as opposed to the administration. The plans include a complete overhaul of the American criminal justice system, and are well underway.
That they are well underway is evident from what must be read between the lines in the news item:
1. The govt. is no longer required to state with specificity the nature of the criminal charges, or the suspect's connection to the alleged crimes, and the investigation can be conducted without reference to any specific crimes having been committed. This is partly a result of the secrecy built into the grand jury procedure, but it is also the result of the secret force of the Patriot Acts. No one has accused, or could accuse, the Iowa activists of having committed any crime, and, now, no one needs to before "investigating" them.
2. You will not see such procedures taken against Halliburton, any major oil company, any major power or utility company, or govt. defense contractor, even though all or any of these are suspected by the govt. of corruption or other criminal conduct. The subpoena power has become cloaked in secrecy and can be directed selectively at political opponents. No one knows the scope of the current use of this mutant subpoena power, because another clause of the Patriot Acts forbids disclosure by the subpoena'd corporation or individual of the fact that records or information has been demanded.
3. The subpoenas can be issued without the review or approval of a magistrate-- part of the new mutant "administrative letter" type subpoena. You cannot be told what you are suspected of, because to divulge the information would supposedly compromise national security and alert others of your ilk. Since we can't find the t**s, anyone is a suspected or potential t**, so we can't tell you if we think you are one, or why. Get it?
4. You don't need to be a t** or criminal to be a target of this new regime of ill**** and unconstitutional "investigation." If, in the opinion of unidentified bureaucrats or FBI agents (or CIA agents) you are somehow connected to an alleged t** or t** organization, by aiding or abetting them, you are just as much a target as an actual t**. Combine this with standing law about conspiracies, which states that a conspirator doesn't need to know all of his co-conspirators or what they are all doing, and the circle of potential "criminals" widens.
Please use this area to post any new developments you may spot, even if you think they may not be very important at first glance.
Top
Anoah Posted: Feb 8 2004, 08:25 PM
Active Member
Group: Members
Posts: 252
Member No.: 391
Joined: 31-January 04
suppression of free speech
This article is a few weeks old and very interesting especially as it comes from a conservative viewpoint. The last paragraph was spooky.
--------------------
SOCIALISM: THE FEAR THAT SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE CAN HELP THEMSELVES
VOTE LIBERTARIAN
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 8 2004, 08:45 PM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
Excellent piece. Everyone please read the article. It has some incredible statements from Ashcroft, and shows how long they have been aiming in this direction.
Top
Phoenix Posted: Feb 9 2004, 02:43 AM
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Anoah, the link doesn't work for me.
Top
opmmur Posted: Feb 9 2004, 03:00 AM
Professor Opmmur
Group: Members
Posts: 387
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Joined: 17-August 03
Phoenix,
It is working OK
Professor Opmmur biggrin.gif
--------------------
"Time Travel is the only way to Travel"
Time Travel Theory
time travel forum
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 10 2004, 12:08 AM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
U.S. Supreme C-ourt, Jan. 26:
Law enforcement comes to your home to arrest you following a Grand Jury indictment, you let them in, they tell you why they are there, and you reply in a way that incriminates you.
Under the usual rules, they have elicited an incriminating statement from you without giving you your Miranda rights, and so cannot use the statement against you in trial. You are not free to leave; they have elicited the statement from you; it is the same as squeezing a confession from an innocent person. The rules were designed to protect an innocent person from overbearing officers.
Under the new rule as of Jan. 26, the statement may be used against you because it isn't considered to be the result of "interrogation."
Under the new rule, it's OK to get a confession from an accused person any way you can get it, presumably, so long as you don't ask any questions to get it.
In one blow, 40 years of Supreme C-ourt law and the protection of our rights down the drain.
Remember that these rights are everyone's, not just criminals'.
Paul
--------------------
Paul J. Lyon
Top
iooqxpooi Posted: Feb 10 2004, 01:07 AM
One in need to be taught Physics
Group: Members
Posts: 337
Member No.: 453
Joined: 6-February 04
That is why, once I am done with my studies in my "Gifted and Above" School
-p, it's actually a Gifted school, but there are people hat are above Gifted...duh), I will...MOVE TO CANADA!hehehe
--------------------
"Imagination and Creativity without Knowledge will get you nowhere."-Yours truly
(I should know)
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 11 2004, 02:44 AM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
Canada will be no refuge.
The new US budget allots just over 10% of what is spent on the Pentagon on "response to or prevention of" domestic t** attacks. This is the war on t*m, which was begun by and is waged by constant reference to the threat of domestic t**r attacks. The war is being waged on the other side of the world by the military, while the police and fire departments in the "homeland" suffer 1/3 budget cuts this year.
However, vigilance across the shared US-Canadian border is increasing, and the Patriot Acts are being enforced on the Eastern seaboard to harass immigrants. Beginning in the summer of 2002, citizens of Pakistani descent had their business records ransacked in Pennsylvania, Georgia, and New York. Federal agents recently raided restaurants and a homeless shelter in Portland, Maine, supposedly trying to stem the floodtide of Hispanic migrants.
These raids and searches could not have been conducted under old standing American Constitutional law. There has always been the Alien Act, but that was clearly not meant to refer to citizens, and offers no precedent for demanding "papers" from travelers at a bus station to find out who is or is not a citizen. There is no precedent: it is the raw exercise of police power.
They are adding 1,000 federal agents to the Canadian border. Why do you think they are doing this? Remember that there is no longer a "border patrol"-- the INS has been reorganized and falls under the Homeland Security Department now, the Secretary of which is a cabinet position. Remember also that the rights of an accused are the same in our country traditionally whether or not he is a citizen, unless he is a citizen of a nation of which we are at war.
A provision of Patriot Act II which they didn't get passed was to allow the govt. to designate individuals as foreign states.
Paul
Top
koaon Posted: Feb 11 2004, 06:10 PM
Beginner
Group: Members
Posts: 62
Member No.: 331
Joined: 24-January 04
Hmm, scary stuff.
Do you think Hillary Clinton might be the Independant/Democrat that Alexander and Maxwel say will win the election in 2008?
Given all the conspiracy theories linking Bill Clinton to the NWO/Illuminati?
--------------------
THE TIME TRAVEL FORUM
time travel forum
Top
Phoenix Posted: Feb 11 2004, 06:18 PM
Phoenix
Group: Members
Posts: 3,108
Member No.: 21
Joined: 12-May 03
QUOTE
Do you think Hillary Clinton might be the Independant/Democrat that Alexander and Maxwel say will win the election in 2008?
Interesting that you would suggest this Koaon. I did suggest this to KPAX in another thread. Especially as Titor left it up in the air about the gender of the person to follow the president elect of 2004. How ever I believe both Alexander and Maxwell have stated clearly that the 2008 elect will be a male.
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 11 2004, 06:23 PM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
There is no trouble linking any candidate this year or in 2008 with the "invisible govt." network: party affiliation means nothing.
This election is the one that will make all the difference. 2008 will be too late to save the "nation of laws" we have built over the course of 375 years, if the current trend in authoritarianism continues. If Bush is reelected, our form of govt. will not last another 4 years (if the anti-Constitutional trend continues).
On the other hand, Bush's people are somewhat still responsive to dissent, though less so now than even 2 years ago. They are very sensitive to "publicity" about some of their plans: for good reason. When the spotlight falls on them, they scatter somewhat. And now, of course, they are preoccupied with November.
I do not credit Alexander, knowing not everything about him; only I wonder why he comes forward now at the time of the Titor buzz rather than nearer the time of Titor's messages, and suspect that he is a fake for this and other reasons. Clinton is actually a good candidate, and I would vote for her, but I understand that almost anyone like that may be a tool of unseen hands.
Top
koaon Posted: Feb 12 2004, 09:05 PM
Beginner
Group: Members
Posts: 62
Member No.: 331
Joined: 24-January 04
QUOTE (Paul @ Feb 11 2004, 08:23 PM)
There is no trouble linking any candidate this year or in 2008 with the "invisible govt." network: party affiliation means nothing...
...I understand that almost anyone like that may be a tool of unseen hands.
Paul,
If you believe this, then why do you also believe that this election is the one that will make all the difference?
If any candidate could potentially be as bad as Bush, or worse, does it really matter who the actual "President" is?
--------------------
THE TIME TRAVEL FORUM
time travel forum
Top
Paul Posted: Feb 13 2004, 01:26 AM
Impeach All Three Branches
Group: Members
Posts: 535
Member No.: 152
Joined: 3-December 03
It's a matter of pace, of timing.
Bush has demonstrated a willingness to squelch rights.
Others seem to have restraint.
Bush I suspect will do more drastic things if he thinks he's going to lose.
Others mayl try less oppressive measures first to keep their power base.
Certain individuals and departments (Cheney, Pentagon, Defense, etc.) are more predictable than others, and some of these remain in place despite the party in power.
Bush is becoming a more predictable element the longer he stays in power, and the prediction is not good. Kerry you cannot predict. No one is above suspicion.
Top
Phoenix Posted: Feb 13 2004, 01:32 AM
Phoenix
Group: Members
Posts: 3,108
Member No.: 21
Joined: 12-May 03
I hope Howard Dean becomes the democratic candidate. I happen to not like Kerry.
Top
hardtomakeaname Posted: Feb 13 2004, 04:03 AM
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Posts: 20
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Joined: 7-February 04
stop me if i make no sense, but from what i understand kerry is all for gun control, gay marraiges etc, etc. things that will quicken our collapse as a country, things bush has already set in motion, and its not like we can trust our govt. to protect our rights seeing that theyre being stripped slowly deliberately and daily. the choices have been made and in our reality telvision show of a country we have no choice but to sit and watch as you all know.
im not sure if titor has either seen it or hit the nail on the head with his predictions but i doubt were in for a treat and i believe that the times are drastic. choices being made by those with control are not in anyones best interest.
i dont think anyone should worry though because its not like weve ever really had control over our situation the time for revolution is now, and if bush just so happens to be in office for another term the vast majority that didnt vote him in is going to hopefully wake up and take some time to reflect on what is going on here.
Top
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Recommended Books/Videos! coverBuy from Amazon.com coverBuy from Amazon.com coverBuy from Amazon.com coverBuy from Amazon.com coverBuy from Amazon.com coverBuy from Amazon.com
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