Election rigged? Nah ;)

[Judge Bean]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

The people who are actually pulling the strings however are smarter than that. They are not going to use means that will leave that much evidence. What I described them doing is more like it. Not only that but I don't think that if they got caught at it its even illeagal.[/b]

I believe this is correct, and that the clue to it is contained in the cited article, which mentions hacking the Diebold computer system used for about 2/3 of the vote (if I remember correctly).

The head of that company is a staunch Republican who vowed to do everything in his power to reelect the Bush. There is no way to check whether the voter actually voted the way it is registered in the program. No hanging chads; no smeared ballot; no need to "lose" ballots.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

The head of that company is a staunch Republican who vowed to do everything in his power to reelect the Bush. There is no way to check whether the voter actually voted the way it is registered in the program. No hanging chads; no smeared ballot; no need to \"lose\" ballots.

No need to even do that. While individuals don't behave as predictably as machines, populations do. All it takes is for both sides to apply the right stimulus to their subgroups, and the election is entirely perdictable. Cheating without cheating is a much efficient way for them to achieve their aims.
Hacking does leave evidence which a sufficiently skilled code expert will be able to find. If the machines were subpoenad, that could be found. If there were a genuine conflict between the leaders of the left and the right in this country, it would almost certianly have been found, or at least investigated. It is not like they are exactly powerless, and if they were really as suspicious of the result as they say, they would have raised alot more hell about it.
The rumors of cheating however are very useful to the PTB they are going to help usher in the sweeping hard left victories I think are slated for 08' if not the mid terms.

 

[K@t 5]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Paul J. Lyon\")</div>

I believe this is correct, and that the clue to it is contained in the cited article, which mentions hacking the Diebold computer system used for about 2/3 of the vote (if I remember correctly).

The head of that company is a staunch Republican who vowed to do everything in his power to reelect the Bush. There is no way to check whether the voter actually voted the way it is registered in the program. No hanging chads; no smeared ballot; no need to \"lose\" ballots.[/b]

If we're talking about hacking the Diebold system, and the fact that the head of the company makes a public vow that he will do everything in his power to make sure Bush wins; are faced with machines that factually had erroneous votes on them at the start of the voting sequence, and have found pictures published publicly of election officials (or non-officials, who knows?) loading bags of votes into unofficial vehicles (therefore, illegal for transporting the ballots), had the press restrained from covering the vote counts, had names purged from voting lists erroneously?

[font=&quot]Is it just me, or does all of this constitute cheating? Furthermore, isn?t most of this illegal? There was no way that vote stacking (which is what you described Darkwolf) could possibly have caused the type of voting frenzy that everyone seems to think that it did. Remember, only about 20% of our nation?s population happens to be Christian fundamentalist. That leaves about 80% of the population who sits and decides on other factors. Several scholars and staticians are throwing a fit and amazingly no one seems to notice. As we say in the computer sector when it comes to troubleshooting a problem: most of the time, the simplest answer is the correct one[/font].

 

[StarLord]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

Don't forget, keeping folks from voting due to bottlenecking the votes counts for even more.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

Is it just me, or does all of this constitute cheating? Furthermore, isn?t most of this illegal?

Yes, however this always happens, and generally benifits both sides. Not all of the pre recorded votes on the machines were for bush, and it seemed that in each individual case they seemed to favor the party that was dominent in the area. We've never had a totally clean election, and probably never will, but the cheating does and did in this election tend to balance out. It does not constitute a nationwide conspiracy.

There was no way that vote stacking (which is what you described Darkwolf) could possibly have caused the type of voting frenzy that everyone seems to think that it did. Remember, only about 20% of our nation?s population happens to be Christian fundamentalist. That leaves about 80% of the population who sits and decides on other factors.

The example of christian fundimentalists was only one of the groups that were activated for this election. It is the people who normally do not vote who swing these things.
Here is how I think this works.
In any given area, the people who vote in every election tend to vote for the same party every time. Lets say that we're in a very balanced area where the regular voters go 40% republican and 40% democrat 5% are third partys, and 5% can vary 50% of the eligable population votes regurally. Now, to swing the election what we have to do is to get some of that 50% who normally would not cast a ballot to do so, and for more of them to vote for whoever we want to win than vote for the other. So lets say we want the republican to win. What we do is make the evangelical christians feel threatened (introduce the gay marrige issue) They are a larger population than are gays, so that is going to get more votes for our guy than against him. Lets say that gets 1% of the vote against him, and 2% for him. Now, just to be sure, we pressure the democrat to introduce some environmental legislation that would shut down a factory that employs a large number of people in our district. That gets people out alright, and scores the 1% of people who'se primary decision criteria is environmentalism for the democrat. However it scores the 5% of people who do not want to see the economy ruined for the republican. Our guy soars in by 6% and does what we tell him beacause he is up for election again in a few years.
I'm not ripping on you K@t, I just think we're focusing on the issue of direct cheating and opposition between right and left, while ignoring the more insidious ways that these things actually turn.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

Besides which, (sorry, the edit function doesn't seem to be working) Would the president of Dibold actually have publicly said anything about helping Bush win if he intended to commit such a mega felony?

 

[K@t 5]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

I'm not ripping on you K@t, I just think we're focusing on the issue of direct cheating and opposition between right and left, while ignoring the more insidious ways that these things actually turn.[/b]

No worries, I know this. It's nice to be able to debate and have a (heated?) discussion with someone without having to worry about that person getting their panties in a twist...

Besides which, (sorry, the edit function doesn't seem to be working) Would the president of Dibold actually have publicly said anything about helping Bush win if he intended to commit such a mega felony?

If you were ensuring the win of someone with extreme power, would you bother to worry about getting nailed for your actions?

 

[StarLord]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

Besides which, (sorry, the edit function doesn't seem to be working) Would the president of Dibold actually have publicly said anything about helping Bush win if he intended to commit such a mega felony?[/b]

We all know that hacking a computer based counting system is all but impossible. We all know that there is no such thing as a 'backdoor' when writing software and as we have seen the powers that own the comapny did make statements as to his political leanings. There is evidence of more than one location haveing a few thousand extra votes more than possible voters. It's obvious that no fowl play happened here if you were a Turkey or a Chicken Hawk.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

If you were ensuring the win of someone with extreme power, would you bother to worry about getting nailed for your actions?

Extreme, but not absolute power. If the problem is just the bushes, they still have some pretty powerful opposition. People who do things like this don't put themselves at any more risk than they have to. That would be a foolhardy thing to do. Perhaps he did it so that the rumors of cheating would help with the massive shift to the left thats coming in 08. They (that is the they that are behind both parties) want people to be glad that the Neolibs came in to save them from the horrible neocons, and not notice that aside from a few emotionally charged distraction issues they're doing the exact same things.

We all know that hacking a computer based counting system is all but impossible. We all know that there is no such thing as a 'backdoor' when writing software and as we have seen the powers that own the comapny did make statements as to his political leanings

I never said that it coulden't have happened, I said that I don't think it did. Saying that being a staunch republican makes somone with the power to do something like that a criminal is like saying that being a muslim makes somone a terrorist. His pollitical leanings are his buisness. True, some machines came up pre loaded for Bush. We hear less about the ones that came up pre loaded for Kerry. They were found though. What happened, got me. Could be an accident, or somone with acess to the machines could have had an axe to grind in each case.
No, this one was rigged with careful manipulation of the messages, and the emotions of the electorate, with both sides working for the same pre determined result. As will be the next one, the one after that, and so on untill enough people figure out whats going on.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Election rigged? Nah

If THAT happens, politicians are going to have to learn a new job skill other than Fleecing. That, in and of itself would be tantamount to the at least the second coming, if not the sky falling.