Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

[JediStryker]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

I think young men more than young women are the types of people who would get the biggest thrill from running a hoax. In general, women tend to handle stress, both physical and emotional, better than men and would probably make more ideal TTers.

 

[Harte]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"John\")</div>

But how could a modern day person go to 1100's and explain a quark or an atom? How could we explain a light bulb and how it works to a neanderthal who only has fire to show? This is where we get into many disagreements on the physics of and with the TT'ers. Harte is correct there are basic principles, that are either true or false, according to what we know. But where do categorize the physics of a time traveller if we cannot understand the new principles or understandings, that we currently cannot test or have no means to understand? We could easily chalk it off as \"Voodoo physics\". But I don't think that there is any acidic test for determining possibility, with very high level uncomprehensible physics (as in the caveman), from our current view point. [/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Jedistryker\")</div>

We live in a world where new technology, ideas, and sciences are not surprising anymore. I think that at this point in time we're much more receptive to new ideas when they can realistically mesh with what we do know...
...Yes, there are going to be sciences and stuff that we can't comprehend initially, but I think that if we were to get a real TTer who was willing to seriously and thoroughly explain him/herself, that we could open a line of communication on a scientific level.[/b]

There are those of us out here that could at least know when a method cannot be true. Such as Titor's microsingularities. Scientists have shown that there can be no Einstein-Rosen bridge near a black hole because of new discoveries about the geometry of a singularity. Additionally, Hawking showed years ago that even the relatively large microsingularities that could have been formed during the big bang have long since "evaporated."

In the 1100's, alchemists knew that certain elements always combine in the same ratios. I bet some of those guys could have understood at least some of today's chemistry, which is based entirely on quantum mechanics, though they don't tell you that in school. (Remember the electron energy levels?)

It is correct to say that any sufficiently advanced technology would be indecipherable to us. But a traveler that arrived with this technology would go a long way toward explaining at least why it is that we can't understand it. The theory involved in this explanation is subject to analysis. If we don't know enough to dispute it, then we cannot with certainty refute the traveller.

If you can't dispute,
you can't refute.

Harte

 

[Harry]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

Greetings, would-be fellow travelers:

OK. I'm new here, so by sticking my two cents into this fray I invite both bouquets and brickbats. I'd actually intended this piece for another part of the forum but for some reason I couldn't get it to post, and therefore, I have despaired, don't want to lose this writing, and so I'm trying to plop it in a vaguely appropriate place.

And I have to say, I don't take much stock in people anonymously showing up via the Internet and making wild claims of the anecdotal, experiential and biographical variety. It's entertainment gone wrong: movie scripts that didn't get made into movies; in my opinion.

Not that anybody asked, but I am a proponent of Finneyism. Jack Finney, as probably if not all but most of you know, wrote "Invasion Of The Body Snatchers." But he also wrote the intriguing "Time and Again," a genre-blurring time travel thriller romnace novel that, thank goodness, has resisted a Hollywood movie adaptruination. For those of you who know this book, I apologize for the retelling in advance.

In it, our hero, mild-mannered but talented artist Si Morley who works in an advertising agency, gets invited to participate in a secret government project working on the various theories of time travel. So far, so good for my personal fantasy. But Finney doesn't use gee-whiz machinery or hifalutin physics -- that would drag the story, after all, and he ain't Michael Crichton.

Nope. Si gets outfitted into clothes of the 1880s and put up in The Dakota apartments in New York City with a view of Central Park that is nearly unchanged from when the building was first constructed. Si eats meals in the room, reads newspapers of the day that are delivered, until one day he steps out of the building and he's in New York City of the late 19th century. He has to prove he's been there, of course, which he later does.

The late great Finney didn't know it, or said he didn't, but essentially what he was positing is that reality is mutable, and can be influenced by merely concentrating on it really hard. (I am being somewhat facetious; but, this is the Internet, and a Time Travel forum for pity's sake, so.) I doubt he ever read any Tibetan anything, and no erstwhile time travler swung out of the Quantum Mists of Mystery (henceforth, QMM) to whisper into his ear the Great Secrets of All (henceforward, GSA) He was just writing a rattling good story.

Of course, it does raise the question. What distinguishes a real time traveler and a crazy -- or just mildly amusing -- person who claims to be a time traveler?

Proof.

Si provided proof by inserting a note at a local library, among other things.

Finally, in his "John Carter of Mars" series, Edgar Rice Burroughs sent Virginian Civil War veteran off to Mars with a Native American enchantment. No machines, no fuss, no muss, and effective immortality. I mention this at all because for Barsoom to have existed, Carter must've been time traveling,also, since there's no Barsoom up there now. I have an affection for Carter, as the first book's action is sprung in Richmond, Va., where I live, and the first meeting with Carter and his nephew takes place in what can only be the Jefferson Hotel. There, he handed the nephew a manuscript detailing his exploits on Mars.

Proof.

Until such time as we don't actually meet again, I am

HEK

 

[Harte]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Harry\")</div>

And I have to say, I don't take much stock in people anonymously showing up via the Internet and making wild claims of the anecdotal, experiential and biographical variety. It's entertainment gone wrong: movie scripts that didn't get made into movies; in my opinion.
[/b]

OMG it's good to hear someone else say this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Harry\")</div>

Not that anybody asked, but I am a proponent of Finneyism. Jack Finney, as probably if not all but most of you know, wrote \"Invasion Of The Body Snatchers.\" But he also wrote the intriguing \"Time and Again,\" a genre-blurring time travel thriller romnace novel that, thank goodness, has resisted a Hollywood movie adaptruination.
[/b]

I'm very sorry Harry, but I fear that Hollywood turned this into "Time and Time Again" starring Christopher Reeve.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Harry\")</div>

Finally, in his \"John Carter of Mars\" series, Edgar Rice Burroughs sent Virginian Civil War veteran off to Mars with a Native American enchantment. No machines, no fuss, no muss, and effective immortality. I mention this at all because for Barsoom to have existed, Carter must've been time traveling,also, since there's no Barsoom up there now. I have an affection for Carter, as the first book's action is sprung in Richmond, Va., where I live, and the first meeting with Carter and his nephew takes place in what can only be the Jefferson Hotel. There, he handed the nephew a manuscript detailing his exploits on Mars.
[/b]

I too am a huge ERB fan. Not so much his writing or style though. I admire him because of his "back story". ERB tried his hand at many things and failed at all of them. His wife and children were practically on the verge of starvation when he finally put pen to paper. I could be wrong but I think his first books were the Tarzan series. These books are so rough as to make what used be called pulp fiction look like Shakespeare. But he had a flair for action and he had an almost superhuman hero in Tarzan. The people liked it and he finally prospered. Perserverance, baby.

Harte

 

[Harry]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

Greetings:

In brief reply

"I'm very sorry Harry, but I fear that Hollywood turned this into "Time and Time Again" starring Christopher Reeve."

Nope, not even close. I think what happened was, they bought the rights to the name, then made a different movie. They're often confused. "Time And Again" has a completely different setting, locale, individuals, story. And as always, the book is better. Then there was that awful thing with Malcolm McDowell playing Jack the Ripper using H.G. Wells' Time Machine to travel to San Francisco.

"I too am a huge ERB fan... I could be wrong but I think his first books were the Tarzan series. These books are so rough as to make what used be called pulp fiction look like Shakespeare. But he had a flair for action and he had an almost superhuman hero in Tarzan."

Burroughs is the man who built Tarzana, Ca., no joke. And his work isn't politically correct, or particularly aesthetic, but they are ripping good yarns. And each generation gets a retelling of the tale (My favorite: the "Greystoke" adaptation, even if lovely Andie MacDowell's North Carolina voice got dubbed by Meryl Streep).

Successive rebirth through film; that's what I call time travel. --HEK

 

[Archabold]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

I have always been interested in thi and have read throught alot of info but is it safe to say that for time travel to atleast go back in time you would have went back during some time in ur exsitence and let urself know it was possible?? there is alot i have left to learn and want to learn, i'm still the eager young college student

 

[Felic--]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

Here's an interesting analyisis of John Titor; the champion of the scientific time travel hoaxers. It's from the perspective of a physicist and is useful for providing the information that a lot of us more logical rather than scientific skeptics are often lacking.

http://communities.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/b...ic;f=9;t=000482

 

[Well Ravelled]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Harte\")</div>

H.H.,

I would prefer a mixed bag. The problem is there are too few on the board willing to challenge the bad science that appears here. It is impossible to challenge someone else's experience though, so I don't ask for \"proof\" of any visions of the future someone may have. I'll take Starlord's or Darkbreed's (or others) word that they have had psychic experiences that lead them to believe in time travel. I personally require no such subjective experience. I believe that time travel is possible according to what we know of physics today.

A lot of my (and Zoomer's) objections to the \"astral stuff\" as you put it involves the way it is stated anyway, not what the person believes. You can tell me all day that you have had this or that experience, and I'll listen intently. Just don't tell me you have \"proven\" something when you haven't.

You can expect me to challenge and/or inform anyone that posts supposedly scientific information that I suspect is bogus. I could expect Zoomers to do the same. I am once again expressing my desire that he not leave me here alone with all these people who won't challenge these things.

Harte[/b]

excellent post... I've been here five minutes (or is it 55 minutes if you include my experiences in other dimensions? ) and the word delusional comes to mind. I don't mean to be harsh but having studied physics (majoring in Quantum Mechanics) to degree level I have a fair grasp of this area but some people's experiences beggar belief. I'm not arrogant enough to totally dismiss them... hell, Youngs Slits was, and in some ways still is, one of the biggest headaches or practical science but lets be pragmatic. We seem to have, in one virtual place, a hell of alot of Marty McFly's.. probability states that a discrete proportion of it is made up, delusional experiences or misinterpretation of their local stimuli.

I want to believe... but not as much as other seem to want to.

On the other hand... there are some very very well thought out theories which may not toally hold water but certainly provide excellent food for thought.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

Once you experience a Out Of Body for your self, I'd be very interested as to how you would approach the Empirical impared world?

Better yet, imagine yourself a very well rounded and respected Physics Buff 'in the know' and you have tis experience where you know FOR A FACT that you are 'asleep', yet you are viewing you own body sawing away at the wood.

How would you explain that to the scientificly hobbled?

 

[happymagilla]

Re: Scientific vs. Psychic Time Travel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>

Once you experience a Out Of Body for your self, I'd be very interested as to how you would approach the Empirical impared world?

[/b]

One of my first experiments with the oob state was to grab a licence plate # of a car parked at my apt complex them return and verify it.....if youve ever had an oobe this is a very simple thing to do...never even came close to any #s or any proof with many other types of experiments....after 20 years of these things as well as getting training at the Monre Institute I still have to say this could all be in my head.