Historian says piece of papyrus refers to Jesus' wife

Opmmur

Time Travel Professor
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Historian says piece of papyrus refers to Jesus' wife

By Laurie Goodstein
updated 9/18/2012 2:34:01 PM ET


120918-science-papyrus-1130a.grid-10x2.jpg


A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a papyrus fragment in Coptic that she says contains the first known statement saying explicitly that Jesus was married. The fragment also refers to a female disciple.


CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a scrap of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a phrase never seen in any piece of scripture: "Jesus said to them, 'My wife …'"

The faded papyrus fragment is smaller than a business card, with eight lines on one side, in black ink legible under a magnifying glass. Just below the line about Jesus having a wife, the papyrus includes a second provocative clause that purportedly says, “she will be able to be my disciple.”

The finding is being made public in Rome on Tuesday at an international meeting of Coptic scholars by the historian Karen L. King, who has published several books about new Gospel discoveries and is the first woman to hold the nation’s oldest endowed chair, the Hollis professor of divinity.

The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Until Tuesday, King had shown the fragment to only a small circle of experts in papyrology and Coptic linguistics, who concluded that it is most likely not a forgery. But she and her collaborators say they are eager for more scholars to weigh in and perhaps upend their conclusions.

Even with many questions unsettled, the discovery could reignite the debate over whether Jesus was married, whether Mary Magdalene was his wife and whether he had a female disciple. These debates date to the early centuries of Christianity, scholars say. But they are relevant today, when global Christianity is roiling over the place of women in ministry and the boundaries of marriage.

The discussion is particularly animated in the Roman Catholic Church, where despite calls for change, the Vatican has reiterated the teaching that the priesthood cannot be opened to women and married men because of the model set by Jesus.

King gave an interview and showed the papyrus fragment, encased in glass, to reporters from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and Harvard Magazine in her garret office in the tower at Harvard Divinity School last Thursday. She left the next day for Rome to deliver her paper on the find on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies.
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She repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said.

But the discovery is exciting, King said, because it is the first known statement from antiquity that refers to Jesus speaking of a wife. It provides further evidence that there was an active discussion among early Christians about whether Jesus was celibate or married, and which path his followers should choose.

“This fragment suggests that some early Christians had a tradition that Jesus was married,” King said. “There was, we already know, a controversy in the second century over whether Jesus was married, caught up with a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex.”

King first learned about what she calls “The Gospel of Jesus' Wife” when she received an e-mail in 2010 from a private collector who asked her to translate it. King, 58, specializes in Coptic literature, and has written books on the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary of Magdala, Gnosticism and women in antiquity.

The owner, who has a collection of Greek, Coptic and Arabic papyri, is not willing to be identified by name, nationality or location, because, King said, “He doesn’t want to be hounded by people who want to buy this.”

When, where or how the fragment was discovered is unknown. The collector acquired it in a batch of papyri in 1997 from the previous owner, a German. It came with a handwritten note in German that names a professor of Egyptology in Berlin, now deceased, and cited him calling the fragment “the sole example” of a text in which Jesus claims a wife.

The owner carried the fragment to the Divinity School in December 2011 and left it with King. She said she was initially suspicious, but it looked promising enough to explore. Three months later, she carried the fragment in her red handbag to New York to show it to two colleagues, both papyrologists: Roger Bagnall, director of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, at New York University; and AnneMarie Luijendijk, an associate professor of religion at Princeton University.

They examined the scrap under sharp magnification. It was very small — only 4 by 8 centimeters. The lettering was splotchy and uneven, the hand of an amateur, but not unusual for the time period, when many Christians were poor and persecuted.

It was written in Coptic, an Egyptian language that uses Greek characters — and more precisely, in Sahidic Coptic, a dialect from southern Egypt, Luijendijk said in an interview.

What convinced them it was probably genuine was the fading of the ink on the papyrus fibers, and traces of ink adhered to the bent fibers at the torn edges. The back side is so faint that only five words are visible, one only partly: “my moth[er],” “three,” “forth which.”

“It would be impossible to forge,” said Dr. Luijendijk, who contributed to Dr. King’s paper.
Bagnall reasoned that a forger would have had to be expert in Coptic grammar, handwriting and ideas. Most forgeries he has seen were nothing more than gibberish. And if it were a forgery intended to cause a sensation or make someone rich, why would it have lain in obscurity for so many years?

“It’s hard to construct a scenario that is at all plausible in which somebody fakes something like this. The world is not really crawling with crooked papyrologists,” Bagnall said.

The piece is torn into a rough rectangle, so that the document is missing its adjoining text on the left, right, top and bottom — most likely the work of a dealer who divided up a larger piece to maximize his profit, Dr. Bagnall said.

Much of the context, therefore, is missing. But King was struck by phrases in the fragment like “My mother gave to me life,” and “Mary is worthy of it,” which resemble snippets from the Gospels of Thomas and Mary. Experts believe those were written in the late second century and translated into Coptic. She surmises that this fragment is also copied from a second-century Greek text.

The meaning of the words, “my wife,” is beyond question, Dr. King said. “These words can mean nothing else.” The text beyond “my wife” is cut off.

King did not have the ink dated using carbon testing. She said it would require scraping off too much, destroying the relic. She still plans to have the ink tested by spectroscopy, which could roughly determine its age by its chemical composition.

King submitted her paper to The Harvard Theological Review, which asked three scholars to review it. Two questioned its authenticity, but they had seen only low-resolution photographs of the fragment and were unaware that expert papyrologists had seen the actual item and judged it to be genuine, King said. One of the two questioned the grammar, translation and interpretation.
Ariel Shisha-Halevy, an eminent Coptic linguist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, was consulted, and responded in an email in September, “I believe — on the basis of language and grammar — the text is authentic.”

Major doubts allayed, The Review plans to publish King’s article in its January issue.
The owner has offered to donate the papyrus to Harvard if the university buys a “substantial part of his collection,” King said, which Harvard is considering. She said she will “push him to come forward,” in part to avoid stoking conspiracy theories.

The notion that Jesus had a wife was the central conceit of the best seller and movie “The Da Vinci Code.” But King said she wants nothing to do with the Code or its author: “At least, don’t say this proves Dan Brown was right.”

This report, "A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus' Wife," first appeared in The New York Time
Ariel Shisha-Halevy, an eminent Coptic linguist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, was consulted, and responded in an email in September, “I believe — on the basis of language and grammar — the text is authentic.”

Major doubts allayed, The Review plans to publish King’s article in its January issue.
The owner has offered to donate the papyrus to Harvard if the university buys a “substantial part of his collection,” King said, which Harvard is considering. She said she will “push him to come forward,” in part to avoid stoking conspiracy theories.

The notion that Jesus had a wife was the central conceit of the best seller and movie “The Da Vinci Code.” But King said she wants nothing to do with the Code or its author: “At least, don’t say this proves Dan Brown was right.”

This report, "A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus' Wife," first appeared in The New York Time.

The Link to Video: https://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DvlmoILJmH4M&rct=j&sa=X&ei=9xJZUPO8EeHqiQKBm4GwBQ&ved=0CCkQuAIwAw&q=%22Jesus+said+to+them,+my+wife.%22+&usg=AFQjCNFT-q8MES-zVMEdyQ6HVtehE7fNuw&cad=rja
 

Justinian

Active Member
Messages
888
I've been reading this one in the different online news venues. I'm not really sure what to make of it yet. I'm not religious really, and probably closer to an atheist than agnostic or somewhere in between and I love to debate with Christians over dogma. BUT, this one I think is reaching a bit. I forget which one of the gnostic scrolls that were found, but it was only like 3 slivers of papyrus and from those you can find like almost an entire book wrote from it on what it says. I'm not sure how you can go from these little fragments to books, but it happens. And it shows me just how far people are willing to stretch the truth on BOTH sides. I mean, for all we know, someone could have wrote this as propaganda against jesus. Or been writing a fictional book about Jesus' life. Nobody can really tell us other than what that little tiny piece of paper says. And as much as I'd love to see everybody in the world wake up one day and realize the real truth behind all religions, this just isn't the proof we need, nor is it the way to go about convincing anybody.
 

Samstwitch

Senior Member
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5,111
Is the Gospel of Jesus' Wife a Forgery?

[EXCERPT]

A sloppy fake

However, scholars have identified several peculiarities that have led many to believe the manuscript is a forgery. They say the text was written sometime in the last 50 years, and probably the last decade, upon a blank piece of ancient papyrus that the forger could easily have picked up on the antiquities market.

First, the writing is sloppy. Compared with authentic Coptic papyri, in which letters are written with varying thickness and subtle curves and details, the letters in the Gospel of Jesus' Wife are formed by rigid, straight strokes of equal thickness. In a YouTube video posted Friday (Sept. 28), Christian Askeland, a Coptic scholar based in Germany, explained that the letters look unnatural, as if written by someone with a very limited knowledge of the language.

If a forgery, it's clearly not the work of a professional, but Askeland doesn't think it was written by a fourth-century amateur, either. "He's obviously not writing in a really formal kind of way, but he's not doing the kind of idiosyncrasies you see in a typical informal hand or in a semi-literary text or something like that," he said.

Second, several experts have pointed out that the scribe does not seem to have used either of the writing instruments common to the time period: a stylus (Roman metal pen) or a calamus (Egyptian reed pen). The blotchiness of the letters and what look like brushstrokes in one place suggest the author instead used a paintbrush — an unorthodox writing tool in ancient Egypt. (Other experts have countered that the pen may simply have been dull.)

Third, the textual content raises questions. Despite much of the manuscript being cut off, its meaning is "too easy" to decipher, Askeland said. "If you look at which parts of the manuscript have the subject and the verb staring right at us, it's most of the manuscript." The center-alignment of all the key phrases seems atypical.

Askeland concludes, "It is very probable that it's a fake."

Also regarding the textual content of the piece, the New Testament historian Francis Watson of the University of Durham points out that all the snippets in the text except for "my wife" also appear in the Gospel of Thomas, an authentic Coptic gospel that was discovered in Egypt in 1945; the snippets from Thomas have simply been rearranged to create a new meaning. Watson considers it unlikely that an ancient scribe would have borrowed each of his phrases from a contemporary work. "It's much easier to see how a modern compiler with limited ability in Coptic might gratefully avail him- or herself of material extracted from existing Coptic texts," Watson wrote in an article published on his website.

A translation of the Gospel of Thomas was published in 1956. Watson thinks the Gospel of Jesus' Wife must have been forged sometime since then. "I have a suspicion it's post-2003 as well. That was the year the "Da Vinci Code" was published, and this could have provided the inspiration," he wrote. (In Dan Brown's novel, Jesus is married to Mary Magdalene.)

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Samstwitch

Senior Member
Messages
5,111
If the writing was genuine (which I doubt), Jesus referring to His "wife" would be talking about His followers of believers (aka, the church), who are also referred to as "The Bride of Christ", "Bride", "the Lamb's wife", "wife", and Jesus is referred to as the "Bridegroom" and the "Husband" in the Bible.

WIKIPEDIA

The Bride of Christ or bride, the Lamb's wife is a term used in reference to a group of related verses in the Bible—in the Gospels, Revelation, the Epistles and related verses in the Old Testament. Sometimes the Bride is implied through calling Jesus a Bridegroom. For over fifteen hundred years the Church was identified as the bride betrothed to Christ. However, there are instances where the interpretation of the usage of bride varies from Church to Church. The majority believe it always refers to the Church.
Christ is a bridegroom

In the Gospel of John, John the Baptist speaks of Jesus Christ as the bridegroom and mentions the bride.

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. [John 3:29]
In the three Synoptic Gospels, when Jesus is asked why his disciples do not fast while the followers of John and the Pharisees do, Jesus answers:

And Jesus said unto them, Can the friends of the bridegroom fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. [Mark 2:19]
In Matthew 9:15, Mark 2:19 and Luke 5:34, the Apostles are referred to as the friends, guests, or children depending on the translation, of the Bridegroom commonly accepted to be Jesus Christ.

The Bridegroom is also mentioned in the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom." [Matthew 25:1-13]
Mentions of the bride [Jesus the "Husband", Church the "Wife"]

The bride's appearanceThe Book of Revelation in multiple instances shows the appearance of the Bride.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [Revelation 19:7]

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ... And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [Revelation 21:2,9-10]
In the above quotes, John, the author of the Book of Revelation, speaks of seeing the bride revealed and refers to her as the New Jerusalem, first mentioned in Revelation 3:12.

The bride giving water of life

Towards the end of the Book of Revelation John describes the spirit and the bride giving access to the water of life.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. [Revelation 22:17]
Comparing the church to a bride

Ephesians 5:22-33 compares the union of husband and wife to that of Christ and the church. The central theme of the whole Ephesians letter is reconciliation of the alienated within the unity of the church. Ephesians 5 begins by calling on Christians to imitate God and Christ, who gave himself up for them with love. Ephesians 5:1-21 contains a rather strong warning against foolishness and letting down one's guard against evil. Rather, the author encourages the readers to constantly give thanks with song in their hearts because of what God has done for all in Christ. That prelude to the subject's text takes up again the theme of loving submission that began with the example of Christ in 5:2 where all are called upon to "Be submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ." It implies, but is not specific, that the "Bride" is the body of believers that comprise the universal Christian Ekklēsia (Church) (lit. "called-out ones").

The ekklēsia is never explicitly called "the bride of Christ" in the New Testament. That is approached in Ephesians 5:22-33. A major analogy is that of the body. Just as husband and wife are to be "one flesh,"[Eph. 5:31] this analogy for the writer describes the relationship of Christ and ekklēsia.[Eph. 5:32] Husbands were exhorted to love their wives "just as Christ loved the ekklēsia and gave himself for it.[Eph. 5:25] When Christ nourishes and cherishes the ekklēsia, he nourishes and cherishes his own flesh. Just as the husband, when he loves his wife is loving his own flesh.[Eph. 5:28] Members of the ekklēsia are "members of his own body" because it is written in Genesis 2:4 "and the two shall become one flesh". In [Eph. 5:29-30] Jesus quotes the Genesis passage as what has been called a "divine postscript".

In writing to the Church of Corinth in 2 Corinthians 11 Paul writes to the Corinthians warning them of false teachers who would teach of another Christ and confessing his worry that they will believe someone who teaches a false christ; other than Christ Jesus of Nazareth whom they preached; and referred to the Church in Corinth as being espoused to Christ. "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him". [2 Cor. 11:2-4]

In the writing to the Church in Rome,Paul writes, "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God" (emphasis added).[Romans 7] Here, Paul seems to suggest that the Church is to be married to Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom was raised from the dead.
 

Justinian

Active Member
Messages
888
Well were the historical figures in the Bible really scholars capable of writing things like professionals? First point.. Second point.. wasn't papyrus hard to get ahold of back then? I mean from what I've read on those times I was under the assumption that writing wasn't actually something that just anyone could or was allowed to do. Like I stated above.. I really would love for the real truth on things to come out some day.. but I also think this is probably a fake. Now they did do carbon dating on the "ink" that the shroud of Turin was painted with.. why can't they do the same here? Or maybe they will eventually. My guess is that it will get locked up for decades like the shroud was. The Vatican has locked up so many works on anything even remotely relating to Jesus over the years that a complete look into their holdings would probably be mind blowing. But, we'll only ever see what they let us. It is in my general opinion that the 3 major religions secretly harbor each others belief systems. Meaning that even if let's say.. The Vatican, held something so powerful that it could destroy Judeism.. that they would never reveal it. Same goes for the others as well. Each faith revolves in each other. Destroying one would destroy them all. Nobody will ever know, because the truth will never be allowed to see the light of day. I'm really not sure what profound effects it would have to prove Jesus had a wife. I mean he's supposed to be the Son of God.. why not get a little wife to trot around as arm candy? Is it really such a big thing that jesus had to be single for his short lived life? This is just another reason why religions are full of such BS that it's a wonder anyone still believes in anything.
 

BlastTyrant

Senior Member
Messages
2,599
Well were the historical figures in the Bible really scholars capable of writing things like professionals? First point.. Second point.. wasn't papyrus hard to get ahold of back then? I mean from what I've read on those times I was under the assumption that writing wasn't actually something that just anyone could or was allowed to do. Like I stated above.. I really would love for the real truth on things to come out some day.. but I also think this is probably a fake. Now they did do carbon dating on the "ink" that the shroud of Turin was painted with.. why can't they do the same here? Or maybe they will eventually. My guess is that it will get locked up for decades like the shroud was. The Vatican has locked up so many works on anything even remotely relating to Jesus over the years that a complete look into their holdings would probably be mind blowing. But, we'll only ever see what they let us. It is in my general opinion that the 3 major religions secretly harbor each others belief systems. Meaning that even if let's say.. The Vatican, held something so powerful that it could destroy Judeism.. that they would never reveal it. Same goes for the others as well. Each faith revolves in each other. Destroying one would destroy them all. Nobody will ever know, because the truth will never be allowed to see the light of day. I'm really not sure what profound effects it would have to prove Jesus had a wife. I mean he's supposed to be the Son of God.. why not get a little wife to trot around as arm candy? Is it really such a big thing that jesus had to be single for his short lived life? This is just another reason why religions are full of such BS that it's a wonder anyone still believes in anything.

Problem is even if the Truth did come out would people believe it? Religion has such a profound hold on people mentally and physically that contradicting there beliefs would just get them laughed at and shunned. You could come out with undeniable scientific proof that Jesus had a family several kids and was never actually put on a cross and people would still argue the fact even though it was proven to be true with undeniable evidence. Religion is 10% fact and 90% belief and that alone is enough to cause Wars and murders for that belief system. So with that thought in mind, the truth will never be exposed the Catholic church is one of the largest corporations on the planet and its all based on that belief, if you made Billions on a story would you let the truth come out and ruin your business?
 

Opmmur

Time Travel Professor
Messages
5,049
Well were the historical figures in the Bible really scholars capable of writing things like professionals? First point.. Second point.. wasn't papyrus hard to get ahold of back then? I mean from what I've read on those times I was under the assumption that writing wasn't actually something that just anyone could or was allowed to do. Like I stated above.. I really would love for the real truth on things to come out some day.. but I also think this is probably a fake. Now they did do carbon dating on the "ink" that the shroud of Turin was painted with.. why can't they do the same here? Or maybe they will eventually. My guess is that it will get locked up for decades like the shroud was. The Vatican has locked up so many works on anything even remotely relating to Jesus over the years that a complete look into their holdings would probably be mind blowing. But, we'll only ever see what they let us. It is in my general opinion that the 3 major religions secretly harbor each others belief systems. Meaning that even if let's say.. The Vatican, held something so powerful that it could destroy Judeism.. that they would never reveal it. Same goes for the others as well. Each faith revolves in each other. Destroying one would destroy them all. Nobody will ever know, because the truth will never be allowed to see the light of day. I'm really not sure what profound effects it would have to prove Jesus had a wife. I mean he's supposed to be the Son of God.. why not get a little wife to trot around as arm candy? Is it really such a big thing that jesus had to be single for his short lived life? This is just another reason why religions are full of such BS that it's a wonder anyone still believes in anything.

Problem is even if the Truth did come out would people believe it? Religion has such a profound hold on people mentally and physically that contradicting there beliefs would just get them laughed at and shunned. You could come out with undeniable scientific proof that Jesus had a family several kids and was never actually put on a cross and people would still argue the fact even though it was proven to be true with undeniable evidence. Religion is 10% fact and 90% belief and that alone is enough to cause Wars and murders for that belief system. So with that thought in mind, the truth will never be exposed the Catholic church is one of the largest corporations on the planet and its all based on that belief, if you made Billions on a story would you let the truth come out and ruin your business?


I really like your comments about people and their Religion.
 

BlastTyrant

Senior Member
Messages
2,599
Jes
Well were the historical figures in the Bible really scholars capable of writing things like professionals? First point.. Second point.. wasn't papyrus hard to get ahold of back then? I mean from what I've read on those times I was under the assumption that writing wasn't actually something that just anyone could or was allowed to do. Like I stated above.. I really would love for the real truth on things to come out some day.. but I also think this is probably a fake. Now they did do carbon dating on the "ink" that the shroud of Turin was painted with.. why can't they do the same here? Or maybe they will eventually. My guess is that it will get locked up for decades like the shroud was. The Vatican has locked up so many works on anything even remotely relating to Jesus over the years that a complete look into their holdings would probably be mind blowing. But, we'll only ever see what they let us. It is in my general opinion that the 3 major religions secretly harbor each others belief systems. Meaning that even if let's say.. The Vatican, held something so powerful that it could destroy Judeism.. that they would never reveal it. Same goes for the others as well. Each faith revolves in each other. Destroying one would destroy them all. Nobody will ever know, because the truth will never be allowed to see the light of day. I'm really not sure what profound effects it would have to prove Jesus had a wife. I mean he's supposed to be the Son of God.. why not get a little wife to trot around as arm candy? Is it really such a big thing that jesus had to be single for his short lived life? This is just another reason why religions are full of such BS that it's a wonder anyone still believes in anything.

Problem is even if the Truth did come out would people believe it? Religion has such a profound hold on people mentally and physically that contradicting there beliefs would just get them laughed at and shunned. You could come out with undeniable scientific proof that Jesus had a family several kids and was never actually put on a cross and people would still argue the fact even though it was proven to be true with undeniable evidence. Religion is 10% fact and 90% belief and that alone is enough to cause Wars and murders for that belief system. So with that thought in mind, the truth will never be exposed the Catholic church is one of the largest corporations on the planet and its all based on that belief, if you made Billions on a story would you let the truth come out and ruin your business?


I really like your comments about people and their Religion.
Thank you Opmmur, i have a tic when it comes to religion i personally find the idea behind it interesting but the execution of it is horrably flawed. I can understand needing something to believe in but it goes way to far when it comes to religion and Jesus Christ and god, When you wont bring your kid to a Dr. because your waiting on a Miracle from Jesus there is a problem. Or when all of your problems are simply solved by reciting the bible and then ignoring the problem and praying it goes away. We need to learn to live without fearing if we are going to heaven or hell and so many people live there lives trying to please a most likely imaginary person.

Now i do believe there is a God i do believe that he is a Ancient Celestial Being who has been around for Billions of years, that to me seems very likely. As for Jesus Christ he is as good of a story as Santa Claus or little red riding hood to me, nothing more than a clever story that over thousands of years has been slowly added to and re-done countless times to the mess we have today. And the fact that its openly known that every few years the bible is changed new things are added other things are taken out, hell next thing we know Jesus will now be called Bruce and instead of the middle east he will be from LA and own a Shoe store.
 

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