My first thread. Titor and Israel.

Messages
196
You ask a very good question, Sliders. Actually, you have several questions in there, some that is typical of the conventional wisdom surrounding the Titor story, which leads to erroneous conclusions. No harm no foul.

For example: if we are to believe that John did, in fact, travel back to 1975, it was not his father's father whom he visited; it was his mother's father. This is new information and I document how this information was discovered in my small book project.

But you bring up a good point: wouldn't the grandfather already have warned his daughters of the coming devastation? And not just Y2K, but what about the nuclear strike? CJD? Loss of freedoms? This also would likely be true (one can speculate that he would at any rate). It is explained in Conviction of a Time Traveller why he couldn't warn his daughters.

Now, another question you have deals with MWI (Multiple World Interpretation). "...if indeed it was our same timeline..."
First, if we allow the conceit that John was truthful in his assertion that MWI is an accurate description of the universe (and there is no countervailing evidence otherwise and much in support of such a description), then Titor did not travel or land on any of the world lines he previously visited. They were new world lines every time. So how can mission planners plan???

Remember, Titor and other time travellers plan their missions so as to minimize divergence (such as it is). How do we know this? The answer to this question comes thusly: How could mission planners (the ones who sent Titor and his team in the first place) possibly plan a mission with any hope of success if they couldn't guarantee that the target of his mission even existed on the world line they were to visit? It is essential to minimize divergence as small as possible. Yes, the number 2.5% is bandied about as the amount of "difference" or divergence between John's world line and our own, but this is now in doubt, the number is likely much smaller. This is an example of one of the many "mistruths" that Titor told us.

But back to your question:
We "know" that the universes/ world lines do not interact, correct? So any change on one world line does not affect any other world line. So how is it possible that John could, travelling back to 1975 (if his story is to be believed), possibly fix his own world line if the world lines do not interact? How could John's trip possibly make any difference at all?

Let me answer your question by asking you a question:

How many Johns travelled back in time?


As Ever
Temporal Recon
 

titorite

Senior Member
Messages
1,974
A finite number of the infinite number of Johns would of gone back and forth... some of them did somethings others did other things.... This was all very clearly explained by him I always thought.


And after about 60 year 2.5 acceptable divergence starts becoming unacceptable.....at least with the model machine he had.

As for saving worldines... That was never his mission nor intent.. He was just talking online about his experiences because an event... an external factor mandated that he go forward to 2000-2001 to sneak a peak at what consequences his actions have.

And I would bet anything it was all about the grandfather insisting to know what the consequences of his actions would be in exchange for his help.

But that is just speculation on my part. But it sounds most logical to me.

And that is regardless of time line 1,2,3,and 4 and the infini.

Further more grand pa may of warned his children... that does not mean his children listened to him... children have a nasty way of rebelling against parents. just food for thought on that aspect of it all...
 
Messages
196
Titorite,

A finite number of the infinite number of Johns would of gone back and forth... some of them did somethings others did other things.... This was all very clearly explained by him I always thought.

Correct, but what does this imply...

And after about 60 year 2.5 acceptable divergence starts becoming unacceptable.....at least with the model machine he had.
Yes, you are correct again. This is how John described his technology, but this is only as accurate as Titor's willingness to be truthful with us with the tale he told. It is becoming more and more likely that this aspect was not necessarily true.

As for saving worldines... That was never his mission nor intent..
Correct, but I was working off the original statement by Sliders:
"...If so Johns knew their were infinite number of timelines he could land on, why try just to save one ?..."

Besides, you don't think they only used the machine once then put it back on a shelf, do you?

And I would bet anything it was all about the grandfather insisting to know what the consequences of his actions would be in exchange for his help.
Yes, if he did in fact speak to his own grandfather, then I imagine the question would come up and the temptation would be quite strong.

And that is regardless of time line 1,2,3,and 4 and the infini.
Correct again. All the "closesly div'd" world lines would be near mirror images of each other, with every action taken on that line nearly exactly mirrored across all of them.
So what does this imply?
Why bother saving only one world line at a time?

As always
Kind Regards
TR
 

titorite

Senior Member
Messages
1,974
Because of finite simaler actions ... Basic karmic laws of the universe... if you send back yours then you are likely to get one back.
 

Sliders

Member
Messages
158
how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home) being that his chances were not good because of the model dimensional travel machine he was using ? and also because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes). What was that "Time Window' he mentioned, about?
 

Samstwitch

Senior Member
Messages
5,111
how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home) being that his chances were not good because of the model dimensional travel machine he was using ? and also because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes). What was that "Time Window' he mentioned, about?


Good questions that I have often wondered about myself!

I especially wondered about the second question..."how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home)...because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes)."
 

Sliders

Member
Messages
158
how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home) being that his chances were not good because of the model dimensional travel machine he was using ? and also because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes). What was that "Time Window' he mentioned, about?


Good questions that I have often wondered about myself!

I especially wondered about the second question..."how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home)...because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes)."
He spoke about a time window, did he need to leave before 9/11?
 
Messages
196
how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home) being that his chances were not good because of the model dimensional travel machine he was using ? and also because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes). What was that "Time Window' he mentioned, about?


Good questions that I have often wondered about myself!

I especially wondered about the second question..."how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home)...because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes)."
He spoke about a time window, did he need to leave before 9/11?

Much of this is gone over in COATT. But, to clarify for Mr. Sliders:
Many forget that Titor used a machine to hop world lines to "travel through time." With a machine comes limitations.
No. The "windows" John spoke of referred to opportunities for him to depart. He can't simply hop into his Camaro, turn his machine on and go home on a whim. It must be planned and plotted. There were only "two favorable windows" that were available to him with his machine: one in the spring and one in the fall. They coincide with the Moon's position to Earth due to the aggregate gravitational tidal forces the moon exerts (as well as other local celestial bodies I assume). What makes a window "favorable" is the amount of the tidal force that is exerted at any given time (which is due to the moon's location).

Don't forget, Titor described his technology as extremely (extremely) sensitive to purturbations to local gravity and works on the principle of manipulating gravity in such a way as to create time like loops.

Hope this clarifies things
As Ever

TR
 

Sliders

Member
Messages
158
Good questions that I have often wondered about myself!

I especially wondered about the second question..."how was john able to get back to his home (or close to what was his home)...because he would of increased divergence greatly between our (parallel universes) and his (parallel universes)."
He spoke about a time window, did he need to leave before 9/11?

Much of this is gone over in COATT. But, to clarify for Mr. Sliders:
Many forget that Titor used a machine to hop world lines to "travel through time." With a machine comes limitations.
No. The "windows" John spoke of referred to opportunities for him to depart. He can't simply hop into his Camaro, turn his machine on and go home on a whim. It must be planned and plotted. There were only "two favorable windows" that were available to him with his machine: one in the spring and one in the fall. They coincide with the Moon's position to Earth due to the aggregate gravitational tidal forces the moon exerts (as well as other local celestial bodies I assume). What makes a window "favorable" is the amount of the tidal force that is exerted at any given time (which is due to the moon's location).

Don't forget, Titor described his technology as extremely (extremely) sensitive to purturbations to local gravity and works on the principle of manipulating gravity in such a way as to create time like loops.

Hope this clarifies things
As Ever

TR
it clarifies the time window situation but what about the divergence, is it safe to assume we all agree our john never made it back to his exact original point off departure. He did complain about the emotional aspects of DTT...
 

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