Debate One World Government

[BlastTyrant]

And i suppose that is one of the big hurdles to get over is the massive change in views from one area to another and perhaps that is where a mass erradication comes into play, people are fearful that the US gov and others are trying to slowly kill us with chem trails and our drinking water, who's not to say that when all hell breaks loss here in the States that it doesn't spark other country's to do the same and ww3 turns into citizens turning on their country's, and after the dust settles is where the new rules come into play.

The way it looks now is Korea is bound to blow someone up, we are on the verge of ripping our country apart and the other country's are just waiting for it to happen, the global war may be what we need in order to rebuild a better society.

 

[Justinian]

yeah I mean look at Egypt.. already one coup and on the verge of a second. One day people will start waking up and realize that our government needs to go. I think we're slowly getting to that point. Our parents generation is happy with the way things are, and don't want to rock the boat. But our generation sees things for what they are and want change. Now its just getting enough people that are willing to act.

Now one thing I've always wondered is how these people in power come to be chosen? I mean some guy comes flying out of exile and is all of the sudden the new leader? This is what would have to be avoided. Some charletan swooping in wiht his big words to woo everyone into thinking he's good. I'm not saying revolt.. I'm just saying that the way the world governments work is not working for the people.

another problem to overcome would be term limits. Term limits are needed to prevent "Caesar". BUT, as much as I don't like Obama.. he is right in that nobody can fix problems when you're limited to time. So there would have to be some FIX as far as the outgoing and incoming guy working things out so that they can basically pass off what they were doing. Unlike now where it's almost a clean slate with each new guy in office.

 

[Aertnam Triticus]

I have to say that I appreciate this topic being brought up as I often find myself considering how to have a peaceful existence on a global scale.

I will start by defining the difference between Social Order and Government.

The fundamental difference is Force verses Mutual Benefit.

Government is predicated upon coercive force for sake of an edict. People vote, accept, or otherwise support government that makes laws that are to be enforced via some sort of violence and coercion. At the other end of every law is a gun to force it upon someone. Thus is it an inherent violation of human rights and a means to divide populations. What you end up with is a portion of your populace using government to force, themselves as well as the rest, into living as has been suggested and supported.

Humans will naturally form some sort of appropriate social order in the absence of government. The basis of any community or civilization is mutual gain or benefit. Whereas government is for the benefit of some over others by means of force.

Mutuality is where it starts according to human nature, thus this is your cornerstone for a peaceful civilization. So when considering a global context, you have to consider what all humans have in common, in spite of cultural differences and moral standards, and how we manage it for mutual benefit/gain.

Everyone has an inherent inalienable rights, basic needs, and personal as well as communal responsibility, thus defining such is the universal standard in which to build from...a corner stone, if you will.

~ Rights:

Everyone has inalienable rights, as well as an inherent and/or basic understanding of right/wrong from birth. Take a bottle from a baby and what happens? It gets upset as it knows it has been violated. Over time, this idea of wrong/right is developed and influenced through social interaction, religious values, social norms/culture, etc. As we develop, we learn to live peacefully with our neighbors according to some sort of moral standard and respect for how rights have been defined.

Ultimately, it boils down to the Golden Rule. That being treating others as you would like them to treat you. It is essentially a simple universal standard that everyone understands and applies to almost any culture or social situation, and is rooted in the above example of the baby motivated and understood by selfish interest.

I suppose you could come up with some sort of universal definitive standard of 'what are rights' that would likely be modeled similar to the US Bill of Rights, but it still boils down to the Golden Rule. Otherwise, adding the concept of Live and Let Live, which essentially means minding your own business, as no one has a right to decide the standard of welfare or lifestyle of another. So long as you are not being encroached upon or violated in some way, what business is it of yours to mind someone else's business?

~ Responsibility

Everyone has a responsibility to manage their own life and family according to whatever makes them happy or otherwise benefits them, and as they see fit ...so long as it does not violate the rights of others.

Additionally, if you expect to live in any community or civilization, you have responsibilities that will be shared, and a certain obligation to contribute. These should be voluntary as forcing someone to do anything is a form of slavery and violation of rights. If it is mutually beneficial and needed, self organized behavior tends to take care of things like this. An example would be infrastructure. It is to everyone's benefit to have a water supply, sewage systems, roads and traffic signals, etc. As things are needed, people tend to willingly cooperate to make it happen whether or not someone is demanding taxes at the end of a gun. Enough hours sitting in traffic, and people start to want traffic signals and expanded roads. How long before people are motivated to rectify the situation? How you organize a voluntary time/fund-raiser for such things is only limited by your imagination.

But how does this fit into a global context? It does so in the same way as it does a neighborhood, small town or county. The difference is numbers and geography. All human action is ultimately individual, thus it has to be standardized by whatever is naturally universal according to core aspects of individuals, human nature.

I think centralization combined with force is where you get into trouble as it works against rights and responsibility as defined by mutual benefit. What is good for one community may not be good for another according to whatever cultural differences they may have.

Some cultures may not be compatible with another or the rest of them, thus there has to be a universal way to respect their right to live as they choose and allow them to take responsibility for their way of life. I believe decentralization is the answer.

So, on a global scale it would have to be based upon some sort of decentralized Libertarian social order, where it is like a big network of separate communities rather than centralized national or state governments.

Economics would have to be based upon a free market as it is the only means of maintaining balance. A truly free market is self balancing as it is regulated only by the natural economic forces of supply and demand. Anything that interferes with these natural market forces will only work to interfere and cause imbalance, that if continued will 'fishtail' out of control and eventually destroy itself.

The only thing I can come up with in terms of currency that is universal and non-inflatable is 'time'. It all boils down to time anyway, right? (Tempus Edax Rerum). Money is essentially a medium of exchange representing the value of goods and services that is obtained by trading it for time, effort. You are owner of your time/life, and exchange it for monetary compensation that is used to obtain goods and services. So why not cut to the chase and just make currency in the form of time credits?

For shared economic responsibilities and/or benefits among communities, and the whole world for that matter, you could easily work it on a system of a vast network of decentralized voluntary communistic organizations/offices. It would be far more efficient than theft by taxation if everyone could volunteer a little money or time as they see fit, and work to share it with others as well as other communities as needed. It would basically work like a network of charity organizations.

This is just a general outline of what I've come up with. I am interested in discussing it in more detail with anyone willing.

I am all for a New World Order, but adamantly opposed to a Global 'Government'. What say you?

 

[Justinian]

What you're suggesting through your words.. from what I understand is Communism minus the Dictator. You wouldn't need taxes if each person does their job. Everyone in the community has a job. Those jobs then relate to help out the community. Everyone is paid in sustenance.

Housing can be made new based on population needs. BUt I really like the idea of people living in apartments and demoing areas around them for farm land and parks. Do I personally have a house in the country surrounded by forest? Hell yes! But, does it make more sense to not waste the land and have everyone living in centralized locations? Yes.

And why do we need money if everyone is sharing? You pool resources as a community, that community trades with the other communities. Maybe have rail lines that act as mobile bazaars. Passing through multiple towns until you trade off what you have. You could have people that their job in the community is to ride that train and trade. Also have set trade routes.

Then you'd have to have education slots. Obviously the number of jobs people want to grow up and do will not be favorable. So you'd have to have "slots". So many children this year need to go learn to be doctors. So many need to go learn to operate heavy equipment. If there is no pay, it shouldn't matter. Then if you find out after a year or so that someone just isn't cut out for their training in medicine, there will be others that aren't suited for manual labor and some sort of "community trade" of specialists can be worked out where you trade "slots" with another school.

As for limiting people's rights. You have to. You cannot allow someone to go on a killing spree. Now I know most think it is common sense to not kill. But by your words, telling me that I cannot, means that you are limiting my right to kill people which I believe I have(for the sake of argument here only). You are going to get these arguments from some governments, trust me. So the only solution to peacefully bring everyone into the fold that I can think of is to allow communities to make their own rules. With the understanding that any and all forms of government will be brought down.

Now the question arises as to how to enforce anything wihtout having a central government to lord over the realm. That's not an easy one and something that we've been going back and forth here on. I think if you read above, you'll see what we've come up with on laws so far.

Commissions would need to still happen, but only on a voluntary basis cause you will need planning commissions for things like roads, sewers, things like that. and OUTSIDE people will need to do this. Not outside the community, but outside of that job category so there isn't any dispute over the water routed around some farm because the water guy doesnt like farmer john.

I'm sure I'll have more to say.. but keep it coming! that was an awesome first post and welcome to the community!

 

[BlastTyrant]

yeah I mean look at Egypt.. already one coup and on the verge of a second. One day people will start waking up and realize that our government needs to go. I think we're slowly getting to that point. Our parents generation is happy with the way things are, and don't want to rock the boat. But our generation sees things for what they are and want change. Now its just getting enough people that are willing to act.

Now one thing I've always wondered is how these people in power come to be chosen? I mean some guy comes flying out of exile and is all of the sudden the new leader? This is what would have to be avoided. Some charletan swooping in wiht his big words to woo everyone into thinking he's good. I'm not saying revolt.. I'm just saying that the way the world governments work is not working for the people.

another problem to overcome would be term limits. Term limits are needed to prevent "Caesar". BUT, as much as I don't like Obama.. he is right in that nobody can fix problems when you're limited to time. So there would have to be some FIX as far as the outgoing and incoming guy working things out so that they can basically pass off what they were doing. Unlike now where it's almost a clean slate with each new guy in office.

I believe that after the dust settles is where the new Messiah is going to come into play, someone is going to rise up and start preaching he is the new Jesus and people will be looking for some form of solitude in a time of war and disarray and will welcome him with open arms and will want to elect him into power. Now wether or not this person is truly the revival of Christ or just a slick talker will be determined after a few years, Corruption and Greed are a Human trait that will take many generations to lose, this new messiah will start off on a good note, he will end the wars and bring everyone together in peace and we will live peacefully and in sync once again.

But after a few years the Messiah's power will start to go to his head and he will start to slip up, it will start out Suttle will little things, such as he wants to be mentioned in peoples prayers, to eventually a Monument followed by segregation of those who do not believe in him to all out erradication, this will bring about another Holy war where we will be split in-between 2 factions one side who see's the Messiah as a God and Jesus reborn and another who see's him as a over powered car sales man, it will be a Revolutionary war, after this takes place and the Messiah is killed and people are left with nothing once more is where the ET's will finally show and lead the remaining survivors into a new age for the human race.

Damn all i need to do is give my self a fake name and preach i am Time Traveler!

 

[Aertnam Triticus]

@ jdetterline

I am not so much suggesting communism as I am recognizing the value/necessity of communist systems within a society, be it for sake of shared responsibility.

To be clear, I am an anarchist of the libertarian flavor, so to speak. Which is why I advocate for a libertarian free market base system with VOLUNTARY socialism/communism to deal with shared responsibility.It can be managed a number of ways.

No government is more powerful than the will of it's people. And people have inalienable rights. Thus any government predicated upon coercion for a sake of edicts which function to control and/or violate will eventually and inevitably fail.

A truly free market is self balancing as it functions naturally according to supply and demand and not regulations that distort it. It supplies exactly what is demanded without misallocation of goods, service, and currency . Hence, self balancing. (ref. Austrian Economic Theory - Mises and/or Hayek) Anything else, eventually and inevitably fails.

Any society that neglects or mismanages collective responsibility ends up a virtual shithole with various issues with regard to anything of mutual benefit such as infrastructure, general health, etc..

So, how do you get around flawed and failed systems? Well, you form a Libertarian based social order with a free market economy with voluntary communism.

And it will work on any scale, so long as you draw the line where it needs to be in order to keep it consistent with your core structure.

But how do you manage that globally? Well, you have to step back and consider a more generalized strategy. What I mean by that is that if you are going to unite on a mass scale, you have to decentralize and allow cites/towns/counties to live as they choose, but institute a generalized means of management.

For example: You may have one city that ops for a secular totalitarianism while 30 miles away there is another that practices libertarianism, and another 60 miles from that which is a democracy, etc. So long as they are compliant with the general system, so be it. If they aren't trying to take over others and forcefully implement their will, ..cool. What's the problem?

They can opt to/not to be a part of a network of common needs support organizations. So long as they aren't violating, so what?

And while I am thinking about it, let's look at what that(common needs org.) would entail. I like to think of it working similar to how the global community already handles things with regard to disaster relief with organizations like the Red Cross, UNICEF, local churches/charities, etc.

Let's say you have everyone giving a little to their local org. to be distributed according to what your community needs. Then one day a flood hits, or a mass layoff occurs resulting in starving people, or whatever...and you are lacking sufficient funds/goods/etc to handle it...no biggie...because you are a part of a vast network that all get together and pitches in to assist. Neighboring towns collect what they can and send it your way. Piece of cake...All it takes is a little willful organization.

And when you consider what I am suggesting and compare it to what we have now, you can see that we as a planet are already moving in that direction. The difference is that instead of a generalized universal and free, decentralized form of order(for lack of a better term), we have a bunch of centralized coercive governments based on violence and militarism competing and fighting over stature and dominant position.

The current basically consists of a path where the first world industrialized nations assimilate the second world developing nations via political, economic or hostile means. The third world nations eventually follow until we are all eventually integrated and developed into first world industrialization.

As time moves on, as we as a species become more populated, more technologically advanced, more educated, etc.. we are eventually going to integrate for reasons of political and economic convenience anyway. So why are we fighting about it instead of taking a more unified, peaceful and helpful approach?

...Seems kinda stupid not to.

And when/if we actually get our shit together and organize in some sort of peaceful existence, then what? What kind of greatness can we achieve as a species?

Think of what it would be like to have multiple mining communities pitching in fissionable material to power 'Marsville Station' and 'Moondale' instead of threatening invasion over control of who gets to produce ICBM's.

Right?

 

[Aertnam Triticus]

@ BlastTyrant

There is no such thing as a Messiah or new Jesus, ...or whatever.

There is only a world that needs to be collectively managed properly so that we do not destroy ourselves or become enslaved by our own evil nature and capacity to violate each other.

Time travel is indeed real and can be proven right now. But it isn't really about that either.

Much of what I suspect religious philosophy and prophecy, etc. is about, other than moral and spiritual lessons, is the influence of time travelers traveling back and trying to prepare humanity for it's future.

When truths begin to be revealed, there is likely going to be an upset from those who have invested so much into a false interpretation of such. This is problematic and very concerning.

The question is of how we can discover truth without causing harm. I think it starts with people making an honest effort to be reasonable and keep an open mind...to get over their hangups and arrogance with respect to their belief systems.

Just sayin'

 

[BlastTyrant]

@ BlastTyrant

There is no such thing as a Messiah or new Jesus, ...or whatever.

There is only a world that needs to be collectively managed properly so that we do not destroy ourselves or become enslaved by our own evil nature and capacity to violate each other.

Time travel is indeed real and can be proven right now. But it isn't really about that either.

Much of what I suspect religious philosophy and prophecy, etc. is about, other than moral and spiritual lessons, is the influence of time travelers traveling back and trying to prepare humanity for it's future.

When truths begin to be revealed, there is likely going to be an upset from those who have invested so much into a false interpretation of such. This is problematic and very concerning.

The question is of how we can discover truth without causing harm. I think it starts with people making an honest effort to be reasonable and keep an open mind...to get over their hangups and arrogance with respect to their belief systems.

Just sayin'

Ironically Time traveling and Jesus are both under the same category of lots of believers yet No proof, this is not the thread to debate who has the fastest time traveling Delorean so i will dodge the subject for now.

The issue with our society is we cannot function as a mass we cannot function as a cooperative society people of this generation and previous are far to greedy and far to self centered to function in anything civilized and this will only get worse in future generations. People are more likely to work together when trying to reach a common goal yes, but there will always be that 1 or 2 people who want more and more and more until we are back to square one.

Our society and previous Generations and soon to be future generations are raised and taught to not have a open mind they are raised to do as they please and remember to sue if you don't get your way, In my personal opinion the only hope we have is a mass eradication a "Noah's Ark" scenario because we have no hope of evolving and moving on from where we currently are, peoples minds need to change along with our advances but even though we advance society is stuck on believing they are they center of the universe and all that matters.

We need to work as one for a common Goal if we want to better our self's and our future's but at this stage that is impossible we as a society cannot cooperate together even if a war happens and millions die the remaining suvivors will still have the same mind set as they did before the war, that somebody is going to owe them for their suffering, people will Riot and Loot and kill and steal before they help out a community, we see it now if their is a Riot what is the first thing people do? Start breaking into places and stealing instead of trying to help defuse the situation they rather try to gain by taking what isn't there's.

When you go and do your errands or go to school try to notice the small things, people who don't hold the door open for others, who will walk in the middle of the road expecting you to stop for them, the people who will butt in line or speed up and cut someone off to get a parking spot, or my personal Favorite the Fully able bodied person in the handicapped spot. I can't count how many times i have held a door for someone and they just walk through like i was suppose to without a simple thank you. This society is Ruined and we need to start over from square one if we have any hope of a future.

 

[Loopi]

***I'm not posting this to ruffle any feathers or piss anyone off, I'm merely posing a question/angle that I've never been exposed to***

What if were to use Religion to try take over...?

Some Extreme Christians already believe that their faith is the only one that matters in the end, right?
Because if I believe in anything else and don't accept Jesus in my heart... I'm going to hell.
If you don't believe... there's this special HOT EVVVVVVVILLL place, where you are BURNED ALIVE for all eternity...

I mean, doesn't that sound like a choice really... Make the other choices so bad you have no logical reason to pick anything else... leading to ultimately... One choice? One Faith? One World Order?

 

[BlastTyrant]

Christianity will be the religion of choice and any who oppose it will face the wraith of God, i don't think we have any choice unless of course we are shown something different, but keep in mind also if by some means ET's do show them selfs that throws a stick in the spokes of Christianity.