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Conspiracies & Cover-ups
Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?
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<blockquote data-quote="Harte" data-source="post: 35772" data-attributes="member: 443"><p><strong>Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">The governmment should do more for the poor then? Let's agree on this, given that the "poor" are poor for reasons other than choice.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">You are aware, right, that the people you listed in your post as needing help really don't need help?</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I mean, there is lifetime disability for Down's Syndrome victims. Welfare to work programs have worked pretty well. There are food stamps, AFDC, Social Security disability benefits, unemployment compensation. There are college tuition grants, there are various local programs as well.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">These people are working, meaning that they all qualify for the earned income credit - that's thousands of dollars a year in free money right there.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Where do you draw the line? I mean, so what if some person is trying to live off 500.00 per month? Why are they doing this is the more pertinant question.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">99 times out of a hundred it's because of bad choices they've made in their lives. If you allow no bad consequences for bad choices, what, again, is the incentive for making good choices?</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Now, remember, we agreed that the government maybe should do more for poor people? What do you think they should do? Hand out money? Who's money? Why should somebody that tried hard all their life to make the right choices, and succeeded at doing this, be held responsible to give free handouts to people that never tried to do it right? Even if the poor person has seen the error of their ways, I am of the opinion that actions (or inactions) have actual consequences. I don't feel responsible for saving someone from the consequences of their own actions. I don't even do this for my own kids. If I did, I would be a failure as a father, IMO.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Why do the poor feel like they "deserve" somebody else's money?</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">First of all, that claim is completely baseless.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Nobody making 20,000 a year is paying much (if any) tax on their income. If they are, they should go to H&R Block. They are in a bracket that there should be no tax on.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Secondly, the idea that any poor individual pays more tax that any corporation is simply a urban legend. That certainly does not happen. Are you aware that every employer pays exactly half of the social security and medicaid taxes on each employee?</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">When you look at your paystub, check how much your FICA is. Know that your employee is paying the same amount as you - all in your name.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">If a company can structure themselves to pay no income tax, that is because the structure they have adopted benefits the United States in some other way. Corporate tax rates aren't "loopholed" for no reason by the Feds.</span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I <em>do</em> understand them. I also understand that none of the programs you mention have anything to do with taking money from the rich - via the IRS - and handing it over to people that don't pay taxes - again via the IRS.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">If you want more help for the deserving poor, then update the legislation that created the entitlement they now operate under so to increase payments to them. What Obama is doing is saying "Vote for me and I'll send you a check!!"</span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">So, is somebody advocating that these programs be shut down? Does Obama's idea to "spread the wealth" include increased student financial aid? If so, he hasn't said so. I wonder why. Probably because saying "Vote for me and I'll marginally increase aid for college students as long as they are passing their classes" won't persuade as many voters as "Vote for me and I'll send you a Gummint check!!!"</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">GG, </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">that's great and all, but if you really wanted to make a difference, you might look into finding the reason that nobody is prosecuted for statutory rape when a 13 ior 14 y.o. gets pregnant.</span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Girl, you only have other people's interests at heart, I'm sure. It's admirable, but naive. I was young once myself you know. I was for the war on poverty - I'm partially responsible for the greatest increase in poverty over a twenty year period that this country has ever seen. That was the result of LBJ's "War."</p><p> </p><p>I used to be a flaming liberal - I actually cried when Bobby Kennedy was murdered.</p><p> </p><p>I know it's hard to let go of the idea that giving poor people free money is a quick way of helping the poor, but it's just not. It's not even a good way.</p><p> </p><p>For example, the program that started this "iffy" lending that had a hand in the financial collapse of this fall was started under Carter (who I voted for, BTW) by an all Democratic majority Legislative branch. It sounded like a good idea, get old Scrooge McDuck to stop pinching pennies so tight. Make him give loans to people with questionable credit. Big mean Bankers trying to keep the American Dream all to themselves.</p><p> </p><p>Contrast that with our attitudes today. "The idiot greedmeisters at this or that finance company just couldn't say no to any mortgage because they stood to make so much money off any mortgage!!!"</p><p> </p><p>We have met the enemy, and he is us.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harte, post: 35772, member: 443"] [b]Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?[/b] [FONT=Comic Sans MS][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]The governmment should do more for the poor then? Let's agree on this, given that the "poor" are poor for reasons other than choice.[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]You are aware, right, that the people you listed in your post as needing help really don't need help?[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I mean, there is lifetime disability for Down's Syndrome victims. Welfare to work programs have worked pretty well. There are food stamps, AFDC, Social Security disability benefits, unemployment compensation. There are college tuition grants, there are various local programs as well.[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT] [SIZE=2]These people are working, meaning that they all qualify for the earned income credit - that's thousands of dollars a year in free money right there.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Where do you draw the line? I mean, so what if some person is trying to live off 500.00 per month? Why are they doing this is the more pertinant question.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]99 times out of a hundred it's because of bad choices they've made in their lives. If you allow no bad consequences for bad choices, what, again, is the incentive for making good choices?[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Now, remember, we agreed that the government maybe should do more for poor people? What do you think they should do? Hand out money? Who's money? Why should somebody that tried hard all their life to make the right choices, and succeeded at doing this, be held responsible to give free handouts to people that never tried to do it right? Even if the poor person has seen the error of their ways, I am of the opinion that actions (or inactions) have actual consequences. I don't feel responsible for saving someone from the consequences of their own actions. I don't even do this for my own kids. If I did, I would be a failure as a father, IMO.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Why do the poor feel like they "deserve" somebody else's money?[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]First of all, that claim is completely baseless.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Nobody making 20,000 a year is paying much (if any) tax on their income. If they are, they should go to H&R Block. They are in a bracket that there should be no tax on.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Secondly, the idea that any poor individual pays more tax that any corporation is simply a urban legend. That certainly does not happen. Are you aware that every employer pays exactly half of the social security and medicaid taxes on each employee?[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]When you look at your paystub, check how much your FICA is. Know that your employee is paying the same amount as you - all in your name.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]If a company can structure themselves to pay no income tax, that is because the structure they have adopted benefits the United States in some other way. Corporate tax rates aren't "loopholed" for no reason by the Feds.[/SIZE] [FONT=Comic Sans MS][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I [I]do[/I] understand them. I also understand that none of the programs you mention have anything to do with taking money from the rich - via the IRS - and handing it over to people that don't pay taxes - again via the IRS.[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]If you want more help for the deserving poor, then update the legislation that created the entitlement they now operate under so to increase payments to them. What Obama is doing is saying "Vote for me and I'll send you a check!!"[/SIZE][/FONT] [/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]So, is somebody advocating that these programs be shut down? Does Obama's idea to "spread the wealth" include increased student financial aid? If so, he hasn't said so. I wonder why. Probably because saying "Vote for me and I'll marginally increase aid for college students as long as they are passing their classes" won't persuade as many voters as "Vote for me and I'll send you a Gummint check!!!"[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT] [SIZE=2]GG, [/SIZE] [SIZE=2]that's great and all, but if you really wanted to make a difference, you might look into finding the reason that nobody is prosecuted for statutory rape when a 13 ior 14 y.o. gets pregnant.[/SIZE] Girl, you only have other people's interests at heart, I'm sure. It's admirable, but naive. I was young once myself you know. I was for the war on poverty - I'm partially responsible for the greatest increase in poverty over a twenty year period that this country has ever seen. That was the result of LBJ's "War." I used to be a flaming liberal - I actually cried when Bobby Kennedy was murdered. I know it's hard to let go of the idea that giving poor people free money is a quick way of helping the poor, but it's just not. It's not even a good way. For example, the program that started this "iffy" lending that had a hand in the financial collapse of this fall was started under Carter (who I voted for, BTW) by an all Democratic majority Legislative branch. It sounded like a good idea, get old Scrooge McDuck to stop pinching pennies so tight. Make him give loans to people with questionable credit. Big mean Bankers trying to keep the American Dream all to themselves. Contrast that with our attitudes today. "The idiot greedmeisters at this or that finance company just couldn't say no to any mortgage because they stood to make so much money off any mortgage!!!" We have met the enemy, and he is us. [/QUOTE]
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