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<blockquote data-quote="nickrulercreator" data-source="post: 174626" data-attributes="member: 10256"><p>First off, this video is VERY sped up. The audio is held the same, but the footage isn't. Here's the realtime view:</p><p></p><p>[MEDIA=youtube]Kdp5bfcrHME[/MEDIA]</p><p></p><p>At 14:12 the first evidence of dust blowing out appears. There shouldn't be any "path" as the dust all around the LM was being blown away. Remember: gasses expand in a vacuum. This means that a wide range of the dust is being blown, not just directly underneath the LM. Also, the LM is producing the equivalent of the power of a fan onto the Lunar surface, why should a deep path, or even a noticeable path, be there? What would the lunar surface look like with vs without the dust? Here's Image AS11-40-5858 from the image library: <img src="https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5858HR.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>Right under the pad would be no dust, but look further and there would be dust. Can you see any difference? I can't. Maybe there is a path. In the LRO image of the Apollo 11 you can see there are much lighter areas directly around the LM than further out: <img src="https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAxNS84MzQvb3JpZ2luYWwvYXBvbGxvLTExLW1vb24tbGFuZGluZy1zaXRlLmpwZw==" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>The lighter area also seems to be coming from the right, the direction the LM came in as well. So, because the LM was high above the ground, its engine was not powerful enough to make a crater and instead just blow dust, and gasses expand in vacuums, this is what you should see. A wider, dustless area, rather than a smaller, confined path. You should also only see it where the last few seconds of landing occurred, as we do above.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>According to whom? What's your source on this?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The tire is applying more force to the surface than the LM engine did. The depth of the tire was 8 inches (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Roving_Vehicle#Wheels_and_power" target="_blank">source</a>), and it was 32 inches in diameter. If we take <a href="https://www.history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/AS15-88-11901HR.jpg" target="_blank">this image</a> and measure the diameter of the tire in pixels we get it to be 344 pixels, or 10.75 pixels/inch. Measuring the amount set in the dust we get 133 pixels, or 12.4 inches. 8*12.4= 99 sq. in. in the dust. 99*4=396 sq. in. The mass of the rover in pounds was 460 lb, so that's 1.16psi. BUT, the rover had an astronaut on it, so that's an additional 340 lbs (160lb man + 180lb suit). 800lb/396sq. in. = 2 psi. Plus or minus .1 psi because it's impossible to know the exact mass, and my figure for the amount of tire on the surface may be off.</p><p></p><p>The tires are also spinning, this produces additional force. The LRV isn't making any deep crater though, its still just moving the top layer of dust away. If you look at images of the tracks of the LRV, there's nothing more than a slight divot where the rover was: <a href="https://www.history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/AS15-88-11903HR.jpg" target="_blank">Example 1</a>, <a href="https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-147-22527HR.jpg" target="_blank">Example 2</a></p><p></p><p>This is different from the LM as the LM was producing a very wide-spread force onto the surface. The force of the gas was also lower than 1.5 PSI by the time it hit the surface. The LRV is applying the full 2 psi directly to the surface of the Moon in specific area, so it will make more of a dent in the dust, but still not enough for a crater.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How do we know they're taken at exactly the same time? One video could have been filmed at a much different time than the other, meaning the astronauts could've moved the wire between the two films.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="nickrulercreator, post: 174626, member: 10256"] First off, this video is VERY sped up. The audio is held the same, but the footage isn't. Here's the realtime view: [MEDIA=youtube]Kdp5bfcrHME[/MEDIA] At 14:12 the first evidence of dust blowing out appears. There shouldn't be any "path" as the dust all around the LM was being blown away. Remember: gasses expand in a vacuum. This means that a wide range of the dust is being blown, not just directly underneath the LM. Also, the LM is producing the equivalent of the power of a fan onto the Lunar surface, why should a deep path, or even a noticeable path, be there? What would the lunar surface look like with vs without the dust? Here's Image AS11-40-5858 from the image library: [IMG]https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5858HR.jpg[/IMG] Right under the pad would be no dust, but look further and there would be dust. Can you see any difference? I can't. Maybe there is a path. In the LRO image of the Apollo 11 you can see there are much lighter areas directly around the LM than further out: [IMG]https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAxNS84MzQvb3JpZ2luYWwvYXBvbGxvLTExLW1vb24tbGFuZGluZy1zaXRlLmpwZw==[/IMG] The lighter area also seems to be coming from the right, the direction the LM came in as well. So, because the LM was high above the ground, its engine was not powerful enough to make a crater and instead just blow dust, and gasses expand in vacuums, this is what you should see. A wider, dustless area, rather than a smaller, confined path. You should also only see it where the last few seconds of landing occurred, as we do above. According to whom? What's your source on this? The tire is applying more force to the surface than the LM engine did. The depth of the tire was 8 inches ([URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Roving_Vehicle#Wheels_and_power']source[/URL]), and it was 32 inches in diameter. If we take [URL='https://www.history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/AS15-88-11901HR.jpg']this image[/URL] and measure the diameter of the tire in pixels we get it to be 344 pixels, or 10.75 pixels/inch. Measuring the amount set in the dust we get 133 pixels, or 12.4 inches. 8*12.4= 99 sq. in. in the dust. 99*4=396 sq. in. The mass of the rover in pounds was 460 lb, so that's 1.16psi. BUT, the rover had an astronaut on it, so that's an additional 340 lbs (160lb man + 180lb suit). 800lb/396sq. in. = 2 psi. Plus or minus .1 psi because it's impossible to know the exact mass, and my figure for the amount of tire on the surface may be off. The tires are also spinning, this produces additional force. The LRV isn't making any deep crater though, its still just moving the top layer of dust away. If you look at images of the tracks of the LRV, there's nothing more than a slight divot where the rover was: [URL='https://www.history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/AS15-88-11903HR.jpg']Example 1[/URL], [URL='https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-147-22527HR.jpg']Example 2[/URL] This is different from the LM as the LM was producing a very wide-spread force onto the surface. The force of the gas was also lower than 1.5 PSI by the time it hit the surface. The LRV is applying the full 2 psi directly to the surface of the Moon in specific area, so it will make more of a dent in the dust, but still not enough for a crater. How do we know they're taken at exactly the same time? One video could have been filmed at a much different time than the other, meaning the astronauts could've moved the wire between the two films. [/QUOTE]
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