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The Time Travel Forum->What Part Of History Would YOU Go Back And Change?->What ethical issues must we consider?
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September 11th, 2001, Should it be changed? How? What then?
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 3 2003, 03:25 PM
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I made rather passionate comments to other people about doing nothing if they were in a position to warn others. (Example Titanic) And yet my emotions are different on the events of 9-11 when there is no reason they should be. Many people died in the tragic event. Much structural damage occurred. Two wars were fought afterwards with the main targets of both (Sadam Husain, and Osama bin Laden) still in hiding. America has suffered economically from the war on terrorism.
Hypothetically let us say we have a time machine and go back to September 4th 2001. We have a week to do what ever we are going to do to change history and it is are intent to do so.
How is it done? Do we phone the FBI and CIA telling them that the twin towers will be bombed by American Airline Airplanes. If they ask us where we got the information do we say we are from the future?
If we stop the event does it change anything for our time line? Would it be worth saving lives in another time line if the lives in our time line are still dead? Suppose the lives we save in the other time line think we are a flake and that we did nothing for them because such events as we described "do not happen in America ". Is it wrong to be basing our decision on glory and what is in it for us?
What would happen if it did not occur. Would not the terrorist still be working on ways of making another big splash? There would not be war protesters protesting Bush, but wouldn't liberals still find another reason to hate him and be "United against Bush "?
Please respond with your views on these questions and suggestions.
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Danny_aquariuS Posted: Nov 4 2003, 12:58 AM
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I don't think anyone will EVER have the authority to be making decisions changing past incidences. Just like that saying goes, "everything happens for a reason" wether good or bad, no one knows the true reasons why things happen. Only in hind-sight we sort of figure that out. But only an optimistic person (and Aquarians)ever see "silver linings" in tragedies. We should NEVER change the past in order to change future events.... Wait a minute, it's NOT possible to do that because we are on different wordlines anyway. O.k. I'm confused...
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 4 2003, 03:46 AM
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If it is another world line then it is no longer a past incident but your actions would be done to "change" future events. In that time line.
So what is your objection to taking those actions?
This reminds me of some messages from the future website
QUOTE
My ploy with regard to altering the Okinawa battle statistics has worked. On June 18, 1945 President Truman orders Operation OLYMPIC, the invasion of Kyushu, Japan's southern most main island. The War Department has revised its previous estimate of a quarter of a million casualties (during the first 30 days of combat) based on the relatively easy Okinawa experience and the dropping of the atomic bomb has been dropped from consideration. Operation OLYMPIC will involve over 750,000 American troops. As the American troops begin to land on Kyushu, Japanese commanders throughout the Pacific order the mass execution of all POWs. This message from the Japanese field marshall in Saigon to his prison commandant in Java is typical, "Eliminate these useless consumers of scarce food supplies." The 300,000 prisoners are ordered at gunpoint to dig their own mass graves. As the first Marines land on Kyushu the last of Java POWs is executed. Both the journal of young Saul Levin and the regular message from our four travelers deals exclusively with their own experience during the invasion of Kyushu. While I remain confident that I can undo this massive violation of causality, my technical advisors (the scientists that the four refer to as "brainoos") advise me that there will be noticeable side effects throughout time until I do. Due to the massive loss of life during the invasion of Kyushu and the subsequent negation of the birth of millions of Americans in the 1950s and 1960s many affected Americans will experience a strong lack of focus and intensity during my experiment. Providing I am successful, it will pass. Should I not be able to reverse my experiment, many will simply cease to exist. - Carlos
Journal entry of Saul Levin: Island of Kyushu, Japan, city of Nagasaki, Fall, 1945
The Big Red One, at least what's left of it, is finally getting some R & R. Shawn, Alex, Jason and Tyler have joined my unit (lately there's been lots of openings). What's left of Nagasaki is now in good old American hands. A lot of G.I.s including this one are wondering what's the point. Talk is 75,000 G.I.s and marines stopped a bullet taking this city and about the only Japanese men, military or civilian, still alive are the papa-sans too old to take their own life. It was just like Okinawa only bigger. If they didn't have guns to fight us, they used tools and sticks, even the women and older kids fought and, if they couldn't fight, killed themselves. Most of it was house to house. We could have gone through their little paper shacks with tanks but there were women and kids in almost every house so it was up to the infantry most of the time. The only thing worse than seeing the terror in the eyes of the little kids when you came bursting through a wall ready to shoot anything that moved was when their eyes had no life left in them. God damn them, why don't they surrender.
QUOTE
Here is the 82nd message. -- RHB --
Hey trogs, Kyushu is ours and next up is Operation CORONET, invasion of Honshu . We've been shining our rifles and doing the same stupid drills over and over again for last five months as the troops ships just keep bringing in unit after unit. There's two million of us now on the island of Kyushu and we're just marking time until the brass gives the go ahead to invade the main island and Tokyo. Morale is up and down. Most of the veterans seem to function on hate and a strong desire to finish the Japanese. Too many buddies have died getting this far. The newer guys can't see past the casualties we took taking Okinawa (34,000) and Kyushu (250,000). You gotta talk to a lot of G.I.s before you can find one that thinks we're not gonna lose 600,000 - 700,000 taking Tokyo.
Journal entry of Saul Levin: Operation CORONET 1946, the invasion of Honshu: Day One
We're all sitting in troop ships again. The Big Red One is not part of the initial assault this time. This is not sitting well with most of the guys. Fighting beats waiting. Scuttlebutt is that the assault on the beaches of Honshu is not going well. I'm thinking about Omaha Beach and how many good men died there.
Day Two
We finally get the word to go in. Our C.O. tells us the beach is secure and that the Big Red One's job is to mop up, set up and maintain a perimeter and hold it until the rest of the army arrives. We get set up but half way through the day the Japs counter attack. Night falls and we're still holding our own. Just about out of light. Can see them starting to advance.
It's us trogs. George isn't going to finish his journal. He's dead. So's most everybody else. The Japanese kept coming all through the night. We kept up a steady fire, but we ran out of flares about two in morning and from then on it was pretty much hand to hand. We stuck with George as best we could. The Japanese are just better in close at fighting than our guys. We used our special fighting skills to protect George but he kept leaping to other foxholes, helping out buddies that were in trouble. By four hundred hours he was bleeding in about six places. By sunup he was dying in our arms. The Big Red One had held. Two thirds of the finest bunch of guys we've ever known were dead. This sucks.
The battle on the plains of Tokyo would rage over the next five weeks. On the 36th day Tokyo would fall. American casualties: 722,000; Japanese casualties: 1.6 million. This experiment has gone on far enough. I will go back in time and rescind my order to George to doctor the American Okinawa casualty stats. President Truman will subsequently order the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and millions of lives will be saved, including that of George. Before I do this however, I will extract from time the headlines that would grace American dailies in this version of events. -- Carlos
September 1946 Allies & Japan Agree to Conditional Peace
Leaders from Japan and America signed a conditional peace agreement thereby ending hostilities. Under the agreement Japan will withdraw its troops from all foreign soil concurrent with American withdrawal from Japan.
December 1946 Truman Impeached
The Congress, with the full backing of the American people, unanimously voted to impeach President Truman. Shocked at the loss of American soldiers in Truman's unsuccessful bid to topple the Japanese military regime, Americans demanded that the man they hold responsible for the massacre of American manhood be driven from office in disgrace.
July 1952 Japan and Soviets Form Alliance
Japan and the Soviet Union signed an historic alliance today serving notice that they considered both Europe and the Pacific to be their exclusive economic and military sphere. The two countries between them form both the largest land army as well as largest navy in the world.
December 1953 Japan Explodes Atom Bomb on Korean Peninsula
Japan exploded a nuclear device dropped from a bomber on the unsuspecting citizens of Korea. Japan's military rulers demanded Korea's immediate unconditional surrender and threatened new bombings should its demands not be met.
It is with a heavy heart that I remember the four lads from the future as they were when they first contacted me. Irreverent game-players, practical jokers and mockers of authority, they have now became battle-scarred veterans who have known much death in our nation's wars over the last three centuries. My heart is the heavier still with the knowledge that Carlos, my future self, is the one responsible for their journeys in time. -- RHB --
QUOTE
My experiment has been a success. I have successfully rescinded my order to George to alter the Okinawa casualty statistics and the conclusion of the Second World War has played out exactly as it did in my youth. The atomic bombs have been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and millions of lives have been saved. I am aware that many of you still believe that the dropping of those bombs was a barbaric act and that, despite my very real experiment,thousands of people needlessly perished. For those of you so inclined I include these Magic/Ultra intercepts decoded on my laptop by George. I believe you may now obtain these recently declassified documents from your own government in the mid 1990s using a Freedom of Information request. -- Carlos
The first intercept clearly shows that the Japanese had no desire whatsoever to bring about a peaceful conclusion. Quite the contrary, they still believed they could win. On July 22nd, just days before the dropping of the atomic bomb, Foreign Minister Togo sent this message to Prince Konoye, Japanese Special Envoy to the Russians, "With regard to unconditional surrender we are unable to consent to it under any circumstances whatever. Even if the war drags on and it becomes clear that it will take much more bloodshed, the whole country as one man will pit itself against the enemy in accordance with the Imperial will so long as the enemy demands unconditional surrender."
The second intercepts proves that, prior to the bombing of Japan, the Americans were also aware that the Japanese were negotiating with the Soviets to form an alliance via a separate non unconditional surrender. From June 3 - 14, 1945 former Japanese Premier Hirota (at Foreign Minister Togo's bidding) met with Soviet Ambassador Malik. On June 14th (as revealed in the Magic/Ultra intercept) Hirota said to Malik, "Japan will increase her naval strength in the future, and that, together with the Russian Army, would make a force unequalled in e world. In this connection, Japan would like to have Russia provide her with oil, in return for which Japan would provide rubber, tin, lead, tungsten, and other commodities from the south."
Just prior to the dropping of the bombs, the commander of the Japanese prison camps in Java gives this order to murder the 300,000 civilian and military prisoners "eliminate these useless consumers of scarce food supplies". The 300,000 are forced to dig their own graves and are about to be killed when the bombs are dropped. The order to murder them is rescinded.
The Magic intercepts (which continued well after the war) further reveal that on September 13, 1945 after Japan's surrender and weeks after the dropping of the bombs Japanese Foreign Minister Shigemitsu sent a coded message to the Japanese legations in Sweden, Switzerland and Portugal. Referring to reports regarding bomb damage, Shigemitsu says "All these reports have been sent abroad by Domei* in full detail. To what extent have they been carried by the newspapers and other media at your place? Since the Americans have recently been raising an uproar about the question of our mistreatment of prisoners, I think we should make every effort to exploit the atomic bomb question in our propaganda. If necessary, we shall telegraph further details. Please let me know by wire whether that would be desirable."
* Japanese news service
We at Splinternet suspect that Japanese Foreign Minister Shigemitsu has been influenced by a visit from a revisionist sent back in time by the National Information Infrastructure. We will attempt to confirm this and, if our suspicions are accurate, will rectify the situation. -- Carlos
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 4 2003, 03:59 AM
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In summary of the above.
An experiement was done by a time traveler (Carlos) to stop the Atomic bombing of Japan.
The death totals of the war were changed to report lower than happened so Trumen would not drop the bomb but continue the war.
The result was many more deaths on both sides then happened in the atomic bombing. And Japan later drops an atomic bomb on Korea.
The change was reversed and all was set back to normal.
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Danny_aquariuS Posted: Nov 4 2003, 05:50 AM
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I dont think "Carlos" was a real time traveler because I can bet that laptops are not called laptops in the future>>> but thats just my theory
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 4 2003, 06:54 AM
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They talked about palm tops on that site before there was such a thing. They also talked about face tops which I have not seen yet.
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 10 2003, 09:07 AM
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before wetart asking questions based on future predictions and possibilities, lets take a step back and ask ourselves -
"why are we here?"
bow i dont expect a load of philisophical ideology on the meaning of life, but are we really here to conform to a system that does not conform to us?(or very little)
i understand your pesimism over marxism, pheonix, but we should look more at the glogal effects of 'Historic Materialism' to maybe open our eyes to the reasons we have no control.
just as an intro, read this short overview;Marxism for too many, is a dirty word sits alongside communism(part of the same thing actually) but without going into to much detail heres marxism in an instant -
late 1800's german Karl Marx comes to england and writes a few big books on society, amongst other things. he said that, thoughout history man has been involved in an internal feud between oppressors and oppressed,
masters and slaves. lords and serfs(small farmers working for the lords)and underneath the serfs are the peasants given food or something for helping with the work.
along comes the expantion of the brith empire,amonst others, trade with other countries, colonisation.
with this expantion, persued mainly by the lords and the hierarchy, came the need for more produce, food, clothing, equipment. so they came up with the idea of the 'factory'. dump loads of people in there, make them work and the production increases. success!!! as an added bonus for the owner of the factory, if he pays the least amount possible and charges the maximum then the CAPITAL he makes is bigger and HIS! but they need more, faster to keep up with demand. enter the machine. this answers all the problems 600% increase. bye people!! this is the present stage the owner of production vs the worker, with the welfare state and others hanging on the purse strings of the worker.
and what do the people with power and money want? control!!! enter the world of politics.
make it so that, we are bred to work, brought up with the need for economic stability and left to die with the hope of a pension.
is this what the human race is here to do?
were in an economic loop. we work for the companies to make the products, for the least amount of pay and then forced to buy back the products we have helped make for the most amount of money. with a lovely slice of personal taxation for the government.
leading me to conclude that we as a race are not in control of very much around us, even our families -
the events around us are part of a a seperate war created by the power and greed of others. at the end of the day someone wants to be 'head of the table'. as an added ingredient along come the oppressed, some a little pissed at this distribition imbalance, some mixed with a bit of religious anguish and voila one war againt terrorism.
again this is not our war, but we do have to live with the conciquences.
if we are going to redesign a future for humanity, we have to balance control, understanding, awareness and acceptance.
--------------------
life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 10 2003, 04:05 PM
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I am exceedingly glad you came to our forum. You are correct, too often Marxism is brushed aside as a bad word to be hid under the table. I am glad someone can truthfully present it as it actually stands, and enable people to see how much of their thinking is really related to Marxist thought, and how little they would actually object to it.
In my view your take on the war is off. I would say a good deal of the "injustice" the Muslims vent on are inspired by the historical materialism ideology of universities the world over. But the Marxist perspective misses the very real and major role that religion plays. Religion takes these passions to a whole new level. There is now a zeal and inspiration of being a warrior for God.
As for the perspective that "this is not our war", that it is some how designed for the people in power, I am going to disagree. I obviously am not the one that told the public that there is a war on terrorism, but emotionally I do support the spirit of the war. Terrorists kill indiscriminately with the intent of inspiring fear. I am glad this war is being fought against terrorists. Living with the need to screen people for bombs should not be part of life. Our world should be safe. Ultimately there should be no need for locks on doors. I can sense this point is going to get more detailed as we share views back and forth, but that is my basic stand.
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 10 2003, 11:55 PM
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i use marxism to illustrate the mind set of opression. religion, on the other hand is a compleatly different ball game. religion in the context of terrorism is used as a tool. a means of motivating and illustating a battle of oppression, be it masters and slaves, jews and muslims, catholic and prodistant. the fact is, it creates a natural aggression and hatred, the reason that God told me to do it, is to "internal", by this i mean it can only be defined within the realms of Belief. those outside of that belief cant comprehend.
i would like to ask you to follow me on a little journey to help explain my thoughts; hold on..........
you live in the middleast, been there all your life. got family there,friends, a life.
*at this point the realism of the years of conflict must be addressed. this has been going on for so long now that it is second nature to hear the sound of gunfire.*
you wake up, the morning sun is shinning, people on the street(i imagine a bussling large town market type scene). your walking, going to meet your parents at a local cafe. you havent seen them for a while because of the situation and your gonna get to seem them soon...
as you approach the cafe, you see your mother, she is sitting by the window, to be sure she sees you. she's smiling, waving, pointing to a drink - indicating its for you. you draw closer, your mother turn toward the inside of the cafe, her face seems to look worried. you can begin to hear voices, paniced voices...you look back at your mother. she,s screaming at you to get back.......................BOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!........................................
you crash to the ground, your back slamming against the floor............your breathing, hurting but breathing. your ears are ringing but you can just make out the distant sounding voices of people! shouting. a siren. you look toward the window where you saw your mothers terrorfied expression.........all that is there are the lashings of flames , licking the chair and what looks to be her. dead.
the weeks pass. youve managed to get up and on, the pain is ripe. but to everyone else its just another sensless attack on a defensless population.
you get a visit from a good friend. you sit for ours talking. as the evening draws in he begins to start talking about there lives and reasons for this terrorism. you become interested in what he has to say. he tells you of a local group of people that are fighting for our freedom. you're intruigued.
sometime soon you meet some of the members of this group. you fall deeper into the rabbit hole. Religion(NB.without too much detail, as this is a topic on its own ) is placed at your feet. showing you all of the reasons why this is happening. it makes sence. its written, by the highest followers of God, ever! this is why, they had to die. its all part of some great plan devised by God and peformed by men. all in the name of getting a place at some heavenly party. so, you go deeper..........
so deep that now you KNOW, the 'true path' and that you are to help the cause, with a distruction that equals if not betters that which 'they' bore on you and yours. and to enhance this revenge, to truely give it meaning, you become a religious martre(scuz the spellin') looked upon by others as a true follower in the ongoing struggle that is, Gods plan.
the rest i leave for you to imagine, does he or not? both types are apparent!
what is the true reason for these crimes.
when the world globalizes terror follows. without to many details about reasons, as they can become infinate, i only wish to illustrate more realistic visions with possible, workable solutions.
i understand there could be holes or misconseptions in the above imagined statement. but it is not there to be torn apart as a gospel of truth or seen to hide any mallace toward anyone, and i honestly do mean that.
i have written it to perhaps open up a way of looking at these things and develope some idea of what really happens out there. rather than the watered down **** were fed here, especially!
two minds are better that one!
the majority of billions is better than a handfull!
right now we only have the media, in all its forms to understand the outside world. even to see england and america. but if the leaders of these countries are in amonst the fighting of war, then propaganda, comes into play. and even on a sub -conscious level can effect peoples behaviour. resulting in communities adapting to the concensus of values that are most popular.(if youre lucky enough to have a say)
needed to start getting this off my vhest.
if you are to read my posts. get ready. i am in no way looking for glory or fame, but my mind is vast and although my knowledge can never be perfect(shame on you for thinking that, ha ha ha) i find emmence beauty in watching and learning. it may not be correct but its worth thinking about.
who sets the rules on what we can and can't think??
thanx for listening.
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life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 11 2003, 12:21 AM
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get your teeth into this;
or
--------------------
life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 11 2003, 01:10 AM
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A beautiful counter balance to my position infinity.
QUOTE
i would like to ask you to follow me on a little journey to help explain my thoughts; hold on..........
It is true I am taking the position of an outsider, and my concepts are a bit stilted.
I understand what you meant to say with your hypothetic illustration, and I feel you did it well.
Yes I look forward to your future contributions to our community, with the exchange of ideas.
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 11 2003, 01:43 AM
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whats your historic ideology on the present situation and the posibility of john titors future?
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life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 11 2003, 04:45 AM
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There are a few historic paradigm that we live in. There is the World War II paradigm that is the Capitalist verse the Communist paradigm. There is the Renaissance Paradigm of the Protestant verses the Catholic paradigm. That paradigm eclipsed many of the older Paradigms of Pagan verse Christian, Muslim verse Infidel. But there is a much older Paradigm too, an Atlantean paradigm of Technology verse Religion, and a Lemurian paradigm of Speech verse Telepathy.
The trick is not to be caught up in any one of them but be aware of them.
The present situation represents a reassertion of the Muslim verse Infidel paradigm aided by the Equalizers of Communism, giving the old Paradigm more power. Bush isn't the tried and true Capitalist, he is a compassionate conservative, just as he said and no one of the old paradigm understood. He is fighting the war on Terrorism because he believe he is protecting American lives and improving the prospect of freedom in the middle east, as he says he is. Even if his actions might not be fulfilling his desires. The whole sale selling of civil liberties for this war on terror represent desires of the NSA and other organizations to expand their power. Which is the tendency of all government organizations (to violate civil liberties in their pursuit of expanding their powers and increasing their revenue).
John's war is a result of the continuation of the expansion of government powers (Socialism) and the undercurrent to resist such expansion (Libertarianism).
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natasha Posted: Nov 11 2003, 07:59 AM
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hello to the forum
i read here that all blame the gouverment. i think it veri IN today to say
the gouverment is not right becaus it seemd to be that person that claim it is
very open minded person.
the one thing the most presher thing that we have in our time ever mor the gold
is the democraty. we can talk what we think we can try to be what we want.
who born to it feel its some thing that was and be forever.
what you dont know that democraty you must protect. some times
leaders doing nusty things and say it for democraty its bad. but some times
we must do not democratic things to protect democraty.
if to look very small america should only fight to who did her bad things.
but america is the simbol of democraty. if shel clouse her yes and not sea
tomorow a lots of world be not democratic. the small peoples want prosperity
when you have a fear not anofh to take ccare of your family and the proud is law
ther coming leaders some times religios one(not all religios) that want the power.
HITLER came from democraty. do you know that there several places cafiterias
that the entrunce to jewish is forbidden in 2003?
do you knew that in some places gierls 16 17 years old are merderd becous
there was suspision (not a prove)) that mabe she met with a male?
ther places where mother that feel alot of greef of her boy 17 years old that
ded must to say to television that she is happy that he ded becouse he served his
peoples? if you look today we dont leave in such a good free world.
there many peoples that want that al be free and good but here a lot that
think about life in diferent way . so to this peoples you must put a border.
it like 2 children when one play at one place and another in another
but when the 1 bother the 2 you can tell the 2 go play in another place
but the 1 is bothering becous it fun. when 2 will say i dont wont more and have the power. the 1 will understand that it wasnt work he l go to play alone or bother another. here comes the nany if she will not sea there wil be a bothering child
but if she say to him to stop there will no be bothering boy until next time
so we very lucky to be in democraty there meny that not so lucky.
so try to not be the one who says : you have not bread eat cackes
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 11 2003, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE
do you knew that in some places gierls 16 17 years old are merderd becous
there was suspision (not a prove)) that mabe she met with a male?
I find such acts sickening to hear about.
I thank you nastasha, for reminding us to value the freedom we do have. I for one value the freedom I have to talk with people such as you and Inifinity_kubed.
Inifinity, can I ask you to read the initial question of this thread and give your thoughtful reply for the hypothetical?
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The Time Travel Forum->What Part Of History Would YOU Go Back And Change?->What ethical issues must we consider?
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September 11th, 2001, Should it be changed? How? What then?
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 3 2003, 03:25 PM
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I made rather passionate comments to other people about doing nothing if they were in a position to warn others. (Example Titanic) And yet my emotions are different on the events of 9-11 when there is no reason they should be. Many people died in the tragic event. Much structural damage occurred. Two wars were fought afterwards with the main targets of both (Sadam Husain, and Osama bin Laden) still in hiding. America has suffered economically from the war on terrorism.
Hypothetically let us say we have a time machine and go back to September 4th 2001. We have a week to do what ever we are going to do to change history and it is are intent to do so.
How is it done? Do we phone the FBI and CIA telling them that the twin towers will be bombed by American Airline Airplanes. If they ask us where we got the information do we say we are from the future?
If we stop the event does it change anything for our time line? Would it be worth saving lives in another time line if the lives in our time line are still dead? Suppose the lives we save in the other time line think we are a flake and that we did nothing for them because such events as we described "do not happen in America ". Is it wrong to be basing our decision on glory and what is in it for us?
What would happen if it did not occur. Would not the terrorist still be working on ways of making another big splash? There would not be war protesters protesting Bush, but wouldn't liberals still find another reason to hate him and be "United against Bush "?
Please respond with your views on these questions and suggestions.
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Danny_aquariuS Posted: Nov 4 2003, 12:58 AM
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I don't think anyone will EVER have the authority to be making decisions changing past incidences. Just like that saying goes, "everything happens for a reason" wether good or bad, no one knows the true reasons why things happen. Only in hind-sight we sort of figure that out. But only an optimistic person (and Aquarians)ever see "silver linings" in tragedies. We should NEVER change the past in order to change future events.... Wait a minute, it's NOT possible to do that because we are on different wordlines anyway. O.k. I'm confused...
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 4 2003, 03:46 AM
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If it is another world line then it is no longer a past incident but your actions would be done to "change" future events. In that time line.
So what is your objection to taking those actions?
This reminds me of some messages from the future website
QUOTE
My ploy with regard to altering the Okinawa battle statistics has worked. On June 18, 1945 President Truman orders Operation OLYMPIC, the invasion of Kyushu, Japan's southern most main island. The War Department has revised its previous estimate of a quarter of a million casualties (during the first 30 days of combat) based on the relatively easy Okinawa experience and the dropping of the atomic bomb has been dropped from consideration. Operation OLYMPIC will involve over 750,000 American troops. As the American troops begin to land on Kyushu, Japanese commanders throughout the Pacific order the mass execution of all POWs. This message from the Japanese field marshall in Saigon to his prison commandant in Java is typical, "Eliminate these useless consumers of scarce food supplies." The 300,000 prisoners are ordered at gunpoint to dig their own mass graves. As the first Marines land on Kyushu the last of Java POWs is executed. Both the journal of young Saul Levin and the regular message from our four travelers deals exclusively with their own experience during the invasion of Kyushu. While I remain confident that I can undo this massive violation of causality, my technical advisors (the scientists that the four refer to as "brainoos") advise me that there will be noticeable side effects throughout time until I do. Due to the massive loss of life during the invasion of Kyushu and the subsequent negation of the birth of millions of Americans in the 1950s and 1960s many affected Americans will experience a strong lack of focus and intensity during my experiment. Providing I am successful, it will pass. Should I not be able to reverse my experiment, many will simply cease to exist. - Carlos
Journal entry of Saul Levin: Island of Kyushu, Japan, city of Nagasaki, Fall, 1945
The Big Red One, at least what's left of it, is finally getting some R & R. Shawn, Alex, Jason and Tyler have joined my unit (lately there's been lots of openings). What's left of Nagasaki is now in good old American hands. A lot of G.I.s including this one are wondering what's the point. Talk is 75,000 G.I.s and marines stopped a bullet taking this city and about the only Japanese men, military or civilian, still alive are the papa-sans too old to take their own life. It was just like Okinawa only bigger. If they didn't have guns to fight us, they used tools and sticks, even the women and older kids fought and, if they couldn't fight, killed themselves. Most of it was house to house. We could have gone through their little paper shacks with tanks but there were women and kids in almost every house so it was up to the infantry most of the time. The only thing worse than seeing the terror in the eyes of the little kids when you came bursting through a wall ready to shoot anything that moved was when their eyes had no life left in them. God damn them, why don't they surrender.
QUOTE
Here is the 82nd message. -- RHB --
Hey trogs, Kyushu is ours and next up is Operation CORONET, invasion of Honshu . We've been shining our rifles and doing the same stupid drills over and over again for last five months as the troops ships just keep bringing in unit after unit. There's two million of us now on the island of Kyushu and we're just marking time until the brass gives the go ahead to invade the main island and Tokyo. Morale is up and down. Most of the veterans seem to function on hate and a strong desire to finish the Japanese. Too many buddies have died getting this far. The newer guys can't see past the casualties we took taking Okinawa (34,000) and Kyushu (250,000). You gotta talk to a lot of G.I.s before you can find one that thinks we're not gonna lose 600,000 - 700,000 taking Tokyo.
Journal entry of Saul Levin: Operation CORONET 1946, the invasion of Honshu: Day One
We're all sitting in troop ships again. The Big Red One is not part of the initial assault this time. This is not sitting well with most of the guys. Fighting beats waiting. Scuttlebutt is that the assault on the beaches of Honshu is not going well. I'm thinking about Omaha Beach and how many good men died there.
Day Two
We finally get the word to go in. Our C.O. tells us the beach is secure and that the Big Red One's job is to mop up, set up and maintain a perimeter and hold it until the rest of the army arrives. We get set up but half way through the day the Japs counter attack. Night falls and we're still holding our own. Just about out of light. Can see them starting to advance.
It's us trogs. George isn't going to finish his journal. He's dead. So's most everybody else. The Japanese kept coming all through the night. We kept up a steady fire, but we ran out of flares about two in morning and from then on it was pretty much hand to hand. We stuck with George as best we could. The Japanese are just better in close at fighting than our guys. We used our special fighting skills to protect George but he kept leaping to other foxholes, helping out buddies that were in trouble. By four hundred hours he was bleeding in about six places. By sunup he was dying in our arms. The Big Red One had held. Two thirds of the finest bunch of guys we've ever known were dead. This sucks.
The battle on the plains of Tokyo would rage over the next five weeks. On the 36th day Tokyo would fall. American casualties: 722,000; Japanese casualties: 1.6 million. This experiment has gone on far enough. I will go back in time and rescind my order to George to doctor the American Okinawa casualty stats. President Truman will subsequently order the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and millions of lives will be saved, including that of George. Before I do this however, I will extract from time the headlines that would grace American dailies in this version of events. -- Carlos
September 1946 Allies & Japan Agree to Conditional Peace
Leaders from Japan and America signed a conditional peace agreement thereby ending hostilities. Under the agreement Japan will withdraw its troops from all foreign soil concurrent with American withdrawal from Japan.
December 1946 Truman Impeached
The Congress, with the full backing of the American people, unanimously voted to impeach President Truman. Shocked at the loss of American soldiers in Truman's unsuccessful bid to topple the Japanese military regime, Americans demanded that the man they hold responsible for the massacre of American manhood be driven from office in disgrace.
July 1952 Japan and Soviets Form Alliance
Japan and the Soviet Union signed an historic alliance today serving notice that they considered both Europe and the Pacific to be their exclusive economic and military sphere. The two countries between them form both the largest land army as well as largest navy in the world.
December 1953 Japan Explodes Atom Bomb on Korean Peninsula
Japan exploded a nuclear device dropped from a bomber on the unsuspecting citizens of Korea. Japan's military rulers demanded Korea's immediate unconditional surrender and threatened new bombings should its demands not be met.
It is with a heavy heart that I remember the four lads from the future as they were when they first contacted me. Irreverent game-players, practical jokers and mockers of authority, they have now became battle-scarred veterans who have known much death in our nation's wars over the last three centuries. My heart is the heavier still with the knowledge that Carlos, my future self, is the one responsible for their journeys in time. -- RHB --
QUOTE
My experiment has been a success. I have successfully rescinded my order to George to alter the Okinawa casualty statistics and the conclusion of the Second World War has played out exactly as it did in my youth. The atomic bombs have been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and millions of lives have been saved. I am aware that many of you still believe that the dropping of those bombs was a barbaric act and that, despite my very real experiment,thousands of people needlessly perished. For those of you so inclined I include these Magic/Ultra intercepts decoded on my laptop by George. I believe you may now obtain these recently declassified documents from your own government in the mid 1990s using a Freedom of Information request. -- Carlos
The first intercept clearly shows that the Japanese had no desire whatsoever to bring about a peaceful conclusion. Quite the contrary, they still believed they could win. On July 22nd, just days before the dropping of the atomic bomb, Foreign Minister Togo sent this message to Prince Konoye, Japanese Special Envoy to the Russians, "With regard to unconditional surrender we are unable to consent to it under any circumstances whatever. Even if the war drags on and it becomes clear that it will take much more bloodshed, the whole country as one man will pit itself against the enemy in accordance with the Imperial will so long as the enemy demands unconditional surrender."
The second intercepts proves that, prior to the bombing of Japan, the Americans were also aware that the Japanese were negotiating with the Soviets to form an alliance via a separate non unconditional surrender. From June 3 - 14, 1945 former Japanese Premier Hirota (at Foreign Minister Togo's bidding) met with Soviet Ambassador Malik. On June 14th (as revealed in the Magic/Ultra intercept) Hirota said to Malik, "Japan will increase her naval strength in the future, and that, together with the Russian Army, would make a force unequalled in e world. In this connection, Japan would like to have Russia provide her with oil, in return for which Japan would provide rubber, tin, lead, tungsten, and other commodities from the south."
Just prior to the dropping of the bombs, the commander of the Japanese prison camps in Java gives this order to murder the 300,000 civilian and military prisoners "eliminate these useless consumers of scarce food supplies". The 300,000 are forced to dig their own graves and are about to be killed when the bombs are dropped. The order to murder them is rescinded.
The Magic intercepts (which continued well after the war) further reveal that on September 13, 1945 after Japan's surrender and weeks after the dropping of the bombs Japanese Foreign Minister Shigemitsu sent a coded message to the Japanese legations in Sweden, Switzerland and Portugal. Referring to reports regarding bomb damage, Shigemitsu says "All these reports have been sent abroad by Domei* in full detail. To what extent have they been carried by the newspapers and other media at your place? Since the Americans have recently been raising an uproar about the question of our mistreatment of prisoners, I think we should make every effort to exploit the atomic bomb question in our propaganda. If necessary, we shall telegraph further details. Please let me know by wire whether that would be desirable."
* Japanese news service
We at Splinternet suspect that Japanese Foreign Minister Shigemitsu has been influenced by a visit from a revisionist sent back in time by the National Information Infrastructure. We will attempt to confirm this and, if our suspicions are accurate, will rectify the situation. -- Carlos
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 4 2003, 03:59 AM
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In summary of the above.
An experiement was done by a time traveler (Carlos) to stop the Atomic bombing of Japan.
The death totals of the war were changed to report lower than happened so Trumen would not drop the bomb but continue the war.
The result was many more deaths on both sides then happened in the atomic bombing. And Japan later drops an atomic bomb on Korea.
The change was reversed and all was set back to normal.
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Danny_aquariuS Posted: Nov 4 2003, 05:50 AM
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I dont think "Carlos" was a real time traveler because I can bet that laptops are not called laptops in the future>>> but thats just my theory
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 4 2003, 06:54 AM
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They talked about palm tops on that site before there was such a thing. They also talked about face tops which I have not seen yet.
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 10 2003, 09:07 AM
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before wetart asking questions based on future predictions and possibilities, lets take a step back and ask ourselves -
"why are we here?"
bow i dont expect a load of philisophical ideology on the meaning of life, but are we really here to conform to a system that does not conform to us?(or very little)
i understand your pesimism over marxism, pheonix, but we should look more at the glogal effects of 'Historic Materialism' to maybe open our eyes to the reasons we have no control.
just as an intro, read this short overview;Marxism for too many, is a dirty word sits alongside communism(part of the same thing actually) but without going into to much detail heres marxism in an instant -
late 1800's german Karl Marx comes to england and writes a few big books on society, amongst other things. he said that, thoughout history man has been involved in an internal feud between oppressors and oppressed,
masters and slaves. lords and serfs(small farmers working for the lords)and underneath the serfs are the peasants given food or something for helping with the work.
along comes the expantion of the brith empire,amonst others, trade with other countries, colonisation.
with this expantion, persued mainly by the lords and the hierarchy, came the need for more produce, food, clothing, equipment. so they came up with the idea of the 'factory'. dump loads of people in there, make them work and the production increases. success!!! as an added bonus for the owner of the factory, if he pays the least amount possible and charges the maximum then the CAPITAL he makes is bigger and HIS! but they need more, faster to keep up with demand. enter the machine. this answers all the problems 600% increase. bye people!! this is the present stage the owner of production vs the worker, with the welfare state and others hanging on the purse strings of the worker.
and what do the people with power and money want? control!!! enter the world of politics.
make it so that, we are bred to work, brought up with the need for economic stability and left to die with the hope of a pension.
is this what the human race is here to do?
were in an economic loop. we work for the companies to make the products, for the least amount of pay and then forced to buy back the products we have helped make for the most amount of money. with a lovely slice of personal taxation for the government.
leading me to conclude that we as a race are not in control of very much around us, even our families -
the events around us are part of a a seperate war created by the power and greed of others. at the end of the day someone wants to be 'head of the table'. as an added ingredient along come the oppressed, some a little pissed at this distribition imbalance, some mixed with a bit of religious anguish and voila one war againt terrorism.
again this is not our war, but we do have to live with the conciquences.
if we are going to redesign a future for humanity, we have to balance control, understanding, awareness and acceptance.
--------------------
life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 10 2003, 04:05 PM
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I am exceedingly glad you came to our forum. You are correct, too often Marxism is brushed aside as a bad word to be hid under the table. I am glad someone can truthfully present it as it actually stands, and enable people to see how much of their thinking is really related to Marxist thought, and how little they would actually object to it.
In my view your take on the war is off. I would say a good deal of the "injustice" the Muslims vent on are inspired by the historical materialism ideology of universities the world over. But the Marxist perspective misses the very real and major role that religion plays. Religion takes these passions to a whole new level. There is now a zeal and inspiration of being a warrior for God.
As for the perspective that "this is not our war", that it is some how designed for the people in power, I am going to disagree. I obviously am not the one that told the public that there is a war on terrorism, but emotionally I do support the spirit of the war. Terrorists kill indiscriminately with the intent of inspiring fear. I am glad this war is being fought against terrorists. Living with the need to screen people for bombs should not be part of life. Our world should be safe. Ultimately there should be no need for locks on doors. I can sense this point is going to get more detailed as we share views back and forth, but that is my basic stand.
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 10 2003, 11:55 PM
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i use marxism to illustrate the mind set of opression. religion, on the other hand is a compleatly different ball game. religion in the context of terrorism is used as a tool. a means of motivating and illustating a battle of oppression, be it masters and slaves, jews and muslims, catholic and prodistant. the fact is, it creates a natural aggression and hatred, the reason that God told me to do it, is to "internal", by this i mean it can only be defined within the realms of Belief. those outside of that belief cant comprehend.
i would like to ask you to follow me on a little journey to help explain my thoughts; hold on..........
you live in the middleast, been there all your life. got family there,friends, a life.
*at this point the realism of the years of conflict must be addressed. this has been going on for so long now that it is second nature to hear the sound of gunfire.*
you wake up, the morning sun is shinning, people on the street(i imagine a bussling large town market type scene). your walking, going to meet your parents at a local cafe. you havent seen them for a while because of the situation and your gonna get to seem them soon...
as you approach the cafe, you see your mother, she is sitting by the window, to be sure she sees you. she's smiling, waving, pointing to a drink - indicating its for you. you draw closer, your mother turn toward the inside of the cafe, her face seems to look worried. you can begin to hear voices, paniced voices...you look back at your mother. she,s screaming at you to get back.......................BOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!........................................
you crash to the ground, your back slamming against the floor............your breathing, hurting but breathing. your ears are ringing but you can just make out the distant sounding voices of people! shouting. a siren. you look toward the window where you saw your mothers terrorfied expression.........all that is there are the lashings of flames , licking the chair and what looks to be her. dead.
the weeks pass. youve managed to get up and on, the pain is ripe. but to everyone else its just another sensless attack on a defensless population.
you get a visit from a good friend. you sit for ours talking. as the evening draws in he begins to start talking about there lives and reasons for this terrorism. you become interested in what he has to say. he tells you of a local group of people that are fighting for our freedom. you're intruigued.
sometime soon you meet some of the members of this group. you fall deeper into the rabbit hole. Religion(NB.without too much detail, as this is a topic on its own ) is placed at your feet. showing you all of the reasons why this is happening. it makes sence. its written, by the highest followers of God, ever! this is why, they had to die. its all part of some great plan devised by God and peformed by men. all in the name of getting a place at some heavenly party. so, you go deeper..........
so deep that now you KNOW, the 'true path' and that you are to help the cause, with a distruction that equals if not betters that which 'they' bore on you and yours. and to enhance this revenge, to truely give it meaning, you become a religious martre(scuz the spellin') looked upon by others as a true follower in the ongoing struggle that is, Gods plan.
the rest i leave for you to imagine, does he or not? both types are apparent!
what is the true reason for these crimes.
when the world globalizes terror follows. without to many details about reasons, as they can become infinate, i only wish to illustrate more realistic visions with possible, workable solutions.
i understand there could be holes or misconseptions in the above imagined statement. but it is not there to be torn apart as a gospel of truth or seen to hide any mallace toward anyone, and i honestly do mean that.
i have written it to perhaps open up a way of looking at these things and develope some idea of what really happens out there. rather than the watered down **** were fed here, especially!
two minds are better that one!
the majority of billions is better than a handfull!
right now we only have the media, in all its forms to understand the outside world. even to see england and america. but if the leaders of these countries are in amonst the fighting of war, then propaganda, comes into play. and even on a sub -conscious level can effect peoples behaviour. resulting in communities adapting to the concensus of values that are most popular.(if youre lucky enough to have a say)
needed to start getting this off my vhest.
if you are to read my posts. get ready. i am in no way looking for glory or fame, but my mind is vast and although my knowledge can never be perfect(shame on you for thinking that, ha ha ha) i find emmence beauty in watching and learning. it may not be correct but its worth thinking about.
who sets the rules on what we can and can't think??
thanx for listening.
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life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 11 2003, 12:21 AM
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get your teeth into this;
or
--------------------
life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 11 2003, 01:10 AM
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A beautiful counter balance to my position infinity.
QUOTE
i would like to ask you to follow me on a little journey to help explain my thoughts; hold on..........
It is true I am taking the position of an outsider, and my concepts are a bit stilted.
I understand what you meant to say with your hypothetic illustration, and I feel you did it well.
Yes I look forward to your future contributions to our community, with the exchange of ideas.
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infinity_kubed Posted: Nov 11 2003, 01:43 AM
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whats your historic ideology on the present situation and the posibility of john titors future?
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life doesn't always work out according to plan;
so be aware of what you've got!!
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 11 2003, 04:45 AM
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There are a few historic paradigm that we live in. There is the World War II paradigm that is the Capitalist verse the Communist paradigm. There is the Renaissance Paradigm of the Protestant verses the Catholic paradigm. That paradigm eclipsed many of the older Paradigms of Pagan verse Christian, Muslim verse Infidel. But there is a much older Paradigm too, an Atlantean paradigm of Technology verse Religion, and a Lemurian paradigm of Speech verse Telepathy.
The trick is not to be caught up in any one of them but be aware of them.
The present situation represents a reassertion of the Muslim verse Infidel paradigm aided by the Equalizers of Communism, giving the old Paradigm more power. Bush isn't the tried and true Capitalist, he is a compassionate conservative, just as he said and no one of the old paradigm understood. He is fighting the war on Terrorism because he believe he is protecting American lives and improving the prospect of freedom in the middle east, as he says he is. Even if his actions might not be fulfilling his desires. The whole sale selling of civil liberties for this war on terror represent desires of the NSA and other organizations to expand their power. Which is the tendency of all government organizations (to violate civil liberties in their pursuit of expanding their powers and increasing their revenue).
John's war is a result of the continuation of the expansion of government powers (Socialism) and the undercurrent to resist such expansion (Libertarianism).
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natasha Posted: Nov 11 2003, 07:59 AM
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hello to the forum
i read here that all blame the gouverment. i think it veri IN today to say
the gouverment is not right becaus it seemd to be that person that claim it is
very open minded person.
the one thing the most presher thing that we have in our time ever mor the gold
is the democraty. we can talk what we think we can try to be what we want.
who born to it feel its some thing that was and be forever.
what you dont know that democraty you must protect. some times
leaders doing nusty things and say it for democraty its bad. but some times
we must do not democratic things to protect democraty.
if to look very small america should only fight to who did her bad things.
but america is the simbol of democraty. if shel clouse her yes and not sea
tomorow a lots of world be not democratic. the small peoples want prosperity
when you have a fear not anofh to take ccare of your family and the proud is law
ther coming leaders some times religios one(not all religios) that want the power.
HITLER came from democraty. do you know that there several places cafiterias
that the entrunce to jewish is forbidden in 2003?
do you knew that in some places gierls 16 17 years old are merderd becous
there was suspision (not a prove)) that mabe she met with a male?
ther places where mother that feel alot of greef of her boy 17 years old that
ded must to say to television that she is happy that he ded becouse he served his
peoples? if you look today we dont leave in such a good free world.
there many peoples that want that al be free and good but here a lot that
think about life in diferent way . so to this peoples you must put a border.
it like 2 children when one play at one place and another in another
but when the 1 bother the 2 you can tell the 2 go play in another place
but the 1 is bothering becous it fun. when 2 will say i dont wont more and have the power. the 1 will understand that it wasnt work he l go to play alone or bother another. here comes the nany if she will not sea there wil be a bothering child
but if she say to him to stop there will no be bothering boy until next time
so we very lucky to be in democraty there meny that not so lucky.
so try to not be the one who says : you have not bread eat cackes
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Phoenix Posted: Nov 11 2003, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE
do you knew that in some places gierls 16 17 years old are merderd becous
there was suspision (not a prove)) that mabe she met with a male?
I find such acts sickening to hear about.
I thank you nastasha, for reminding us to value the freedom we do have. I for one value the freedom I have to talk with people such as you and Inifinity_kubed.
Inifinity, can I ask you to read the initial question of this thread and give your thoughtful reply for the hypothetical?
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