Menu
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New profile posts
Latest activity
Vault
Time Travel Schematics
T.E.C. Time Archive
The Why Files
Have You Seen...?
Chronovisor
TimeTravelForum.tk
TimeTravelForum.net
ParanormalNetwork.net
Paranormalis.com
ConspiracyCafe.net
Streams
Live streams
Featured streams
Multi-Viewer
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Navigation
Install the app
Install
More options
Contact us
Close Menu
Forums
General Discussion Forum
General Discussion
The World
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pauli" data-source="post: 11880" data-attributes="member: 88"><p><strong>The World</strong></p><p></p><p>Hi Pyro,</p><p></p><p>You had a lot of good points - some I agreed with and some I did not. However, I have to challenge one of them, because of the Biblical reference you brought up. Having studied the Bible, in the original languages - though I am more adept at the Hebrew than Koine Greek - I have to point out the following, which is based on a misnomer and is often mistranslated into English. Btw, I also used to think this was an accurate translation and was told I was wrong when I was about 16 or 17.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You asked: "So its alright to kill in means of war?" </p><p></p><p>Well, actually, "Yes," depending upon the circumstances. Defensive war is allowed. The quote is not "Thou shalt not kill," it is "Thou shalt not murder." The hebrew reads, "Lo Tirtzach." And here is Rashi's commentary on this commandment. (Rashi was and is the most highly regarded scholarly commentary on the Hebrew Bible and is accepted universally in the Jewish world.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is why you see the verse in Ecclesiastes that says, "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heavens: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which has been planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; ... A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war and a time of peace." (edited from Ecclesiastes Chapter 3: 1-8) There are times and phases where war is permitted; unfortunately times do exist when you are forced, by necessity, to preserve yourself through waging war, otherwise you will be swallowed up by the other side. </p><p></p><p>The Jews have learned this throughout their history. The Maccabean war (approximately 400 to 600 B.C.E.) was an attempt to survive the onslaught of the Greeks, who were attempting to wage cultural genocide on the Jewish people. They did horrible attrocities to try and separate Jews from living as Jews with their culture - reading and observing the Torah were banned, circumcision was not allowed and other things. There is a very moving account in the Appocraphal writings about Hannah and her 10 sons who were tortured by the despot Antiochus Epiphenes. He stood each son, from the oldest to the youngest, in front of their mother and tried to get them to deny their Torah observance, asking them to worship one of the Greek idols and eat a bit of pork. Each one refused and each one was tortured in front of their mother as she watched. They were killed in horrific ways (flaying, being placed in a large heated metal bowl where they were cooked alive, having their eyes and tongues cut out, etc.) one at a time. Each time, the son refused to capitulate even though he had seen what his brother had gone through before him. In the end, Antiochus turned to Hannah and she refused and was killed. This is just one example of many other attrocities the whole Judean world was facing at that time. Had the Jews just laid down and gone with the Greek program, today you would only know of them as a footnote in history - i.e. the Jews that at one time existed, but do not exist any more. But, Mattityahu, a priest decided to rise up against the Greeks, assembled an army who fought against their oppressors. Because of these men, other Jews began to revolt and started refusing to follow the Greek dictates. Mattityahu waged a war for a number of years before the Greeks finally gave up. As a result, Jews survived as a people. </p><p></p><p>So, yes, sometimes war is an answer. Maybe not the one we desire, but an answer nonetheless.</p><p></p><p>As to the Crusades, I think you need to brush up on your history. While I do not condone what took place in the 11th and 12th centuries, I would like to point out that the Crusades were a very belated response to the muslims Jihads from the late 7th century. The Muslims themselves came out of Arabia in about 670, C.E. and conquered vast amounts of the then Christian world in campaigns that make the Crusades look pretty tame. Within a very short time, they killed thousands and thousands of men and enslaved the women and children. At the time (7th century) the Christian church was in a decline and they were not able to respond to the Muslims forced colonization of their lands. It took about 400 to 500 years before there was any possible response from the Christian world to the mass killings that took place on their once held lands - lands btw that were not conquered by the Christians in war, but peacefully through prosetelyzation. It is also interesting to note that while Christians have apologized many, many times for the Crusades, the Muslims have never apologized - nor is it every likely for them to - for the mass killing campaigns that they waged in the 7th century.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pauli, post: 11880, member: 88"] [b]The World[/b] Hi Pyro, You had a lot of good points - some I agreed with and some I did not. However, I have to challenge one of them, because of the Biblical reference you brought up. Having studied the Bible, in the original languages - though I am more adept at the Hebrew than Koine Greek - I have to point out the following, which is based on a misnomer and is often mistranslated into English. Btw, I also used to think this was an accurate translation and was told I was wrong when I was about 16 or 17. You asked: "So its alright to kill in means of war?" Well, actually, "Yes," depending upon the circumstances. Defensive war is allowed. The quote is not "Thou shalt not kill," it is "Thou shalt not murder." The hebrew reads, "Lo Tirtzach." And here is Rashi's commentary on this commandment. (Rashi was and is the most highly regarded scholarly commentary on the Hebrew Bible and is accepted universally in the Jewish world.) This is why you see the verse in Ecclesiastes that says, "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heavens: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which has been planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; ... A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war and a time of peace." (edited from Ecclesiastes Chapter 3: 1-8) There are times and phases where war is permitted; unfortunately times do exist when you are forced, by necessity, to preserve yourself through waging war, otherwise you will be swallowed up by the other side. The Jews have learned this throughout their history. The Maccabean war (approximately 400 to 600 B.C.E.) was an attempt to survive the onslaught of the Greeks, who were attempting to wage cultural genocide on the Jewish people. They did horrible attrocities to try and separate Jews from living as Jews with their culture - reading and observing the Torah were banned, circumcision was not allowed and other things. There is a very moving account in the Appocraphal writings about Hannah and her 10 sons who were tortured by the despot Antiochus Epiphenes. He stood each son, from the oldest to the youngest, in front of their mother and tried to get them to deny their Torah observance, asking them to worship one of the Greek idols and eat a bit of pork. Each one refused and each one was tortured in front of their mother as she watched. They were killed in horrific ways (flaying, being placed in a large heated metal bowl where they were cooked alive, having their eyes and tongues cut out, etc.) one at a time. Each time, the son refused to capitulate even though he had seen what his brother had gone through before him. In the end, Antiochus turned to Hannah and she refused and was killed. This is just one example of many other attrocities the whole Judean world was facing at that time. Had the Jews just laid down and gone with the Greek program, today you would only know of them as a footnote in history - i.e. the Jews that at one time existed, but do not exist any more. But, Mattityahu, a priest decided to rise up against the Greeks, assembled an army who fought against their oppressors. Because of these men, other Jews began to revolt and started refusing to follow the Greek dictates. Mattityahu waged a war for a number of years before the Greeks finally gave up. As a result, Jews survived as a people. So, yes, sometimes war is an answer. Maybe not the one we desire, but an answer nonetheless. As to the Crusades, I think you need to brush up on your history. While I do not condone what took place in the 11th and 12th centuries, I would like to point out that the Crusades were a very belated response to the muslims Jihads from the late 7th century. The Muslims themselves came out of Arabia in about 670, C.E. and conquered vast amounts of the then Christian world in campaigns that make the Crusades look pretty tame. Within a very short time, they killed thousands and thousands of men and enslaved the women and children. At the time (7th century) the Christian church was in a decline and they were not able to respond to the Muslims forced colonization of their lands. It took about 400 to 500 years before there was any possible response from the Christian world to the mass killings that took place on their once held lands - lands btw that were not conquered by the Christians in war, but peacefully through prosetelyzation. It is also interesting to note that while Christians have apologized many, many times for the Crusades, the Muslims have never apologized - nor is it every likely for them to - for the mass killing campaigns that they waged in the 7th century. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
General Discussion Forum
General Discussion
The World
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top