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<blockquote data-quote="pauli" data-source="post: 11892" data-attributes="member: 88"><p><strong>The World</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hi Ralan,</p><p></p><p>I have been trying to make out exactly what you meant by this post because it can be read in two ways. #1. the thousands of people dying for it refers to people in the past (Christians) or, #2. the thousands of people dying for it refers to the people of the present (Muslims). I think you meant #2, so I will just try to clarify something:</p><p></p><p>The reason why I added the thing about the land's ownership in the late 7th century was to underscore a point. Many people take points in history and display them as "proofs" as to some perfidy that should not have been done; in this instance, the Crusades. They talk about the horror of the Crusades and how horrible it was that the Church allowed x and y, etc. But they don't talk about this point of history in context. </p><p></p><p>It reminds me of when I see war coverage coming from PBS or other news sources. The reporters show the dying, the suffering, the mourning and how horrible it all is - and it is. But, they don't show any of it in context. They show you these soldiers who have been called out to do this mission and those people on the other side who are dying. They show you the funeral of a man who has just been shot a few hours ago and the wailing mother and sisters. But, they never once mention that all of the scenes they just shot are only taking place in a one mile perimeter of that city. Instead, they leave you with the impression that the whole country is falling apart. Everyone everywhere is dying; it is all carnage and brutality. There is nothing but war - war, war, war, war, war. Everywhere you look is war. That is what happens when you take something out of context. And, similarly, you can do the same thing with historical events.</p><p></p><p>One of the things I don't appreciate about the way some people teach/remember historical events, is that they don't look at things in context. Now, granted, it is wise not to get stuck in history and be unable to forget the past. This is what a lot of people do - this is what the Jews can do about the Holocaust, it is what the blacks can do about slavery. (At least in America) There comes a time when you have to let things go and move on. <strong>However</strong>, and I emphasize this word very carefully, while it is a good thing to move beyond grudges, it is not a smart thing to start redefining history to suit the ends of the perpetrator and give them a "Get out of jail Free" card.</p><p></p><p>My problem with the Islamic world is that I don't see a lot of people looking into the past and trying to come to terms with the shadow that they have thrown out upon the world. I don't see any repentance. Instead, I see people who only point out where we in the West have harmed them. I only see the grudges that they refuse to give up. OBL chose 9-11 for a reason. I believe it was September 11, 1683, when the Muslims lost a battle against a large Christian city and that was the turning point for their expansion into Europe. After that, the Islamic world took a tumble into a stagnation that they are still suffering from. OBL chose that date because he could never forget the humiliation of losing that battle. My G-d! What a memory for keeping a grudge! They haven't forgotten the Crusades. They are angry about colonization that took place in the late 1800's with Napoleon. These people never forgive. That is a HUGE problem with me. Instead, they play the victim card. Oh, poor us. We are living in backwater 3rd world countries - and it's all YOUR FAULT! You in the West! You kept us from expanding and taking over. It is your fault we are in trouble. And, like idiots, we enable them in their victim mentality. "Yes, you are right! It is us. Mea culpa, mea culpa!"</p><p></p><p>Out of guilt, we feed that monster. We give them allowances for their barbarisms. We know they cut off peoples heads, hands and feet as part of their judicial system - but hey, who are we to judge! We aren't so forgiving, however, of those who do capital punishment in the West because it is "barbaric." In short, we have a terrible case of double standards. In our condescention, we tell the Muslims, "Oh well, I understand. You can't help yourself. You just had to blow up that bus of children. You had to kill those old people in the rest home. You had no choice but to take those planes and ram them into the twin towers. It is beyond you. You just can't help it." That is as racist as not giving them places to stay because they are Muslim. Or spitting at them as they pass in the street. It is a subtle form of racism that white people tend to do to other races and it is just as nasty as slapping that person on the face.</p><p></p><p>I say, let us remember history. But let us remember it accurately. Let's not give a pass on either side and just deal with it. "You cannot change what you don't acknowledge." And we are not doing anyone else a favor by not being honest and talking about what really happened in history. All of us have a bad case of the guilts - it comes from doing bad things and then getting called on it. Germany had their Hitler. Japan had its Emperor worship cult. America has its Indian Reservations. Cambodia had its killing fields. China/Tibet. Let's not give anyone a "Get out of Jail Free pass." We all need to acknowledge the past and deal with it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pauli, post: 11892, member: 88"] [b]The World[/b] Hi Ralan, I have been trying to make out exactly what you meant by this post because it can be read in two ways. #1. the thousands of people dying for it refers to people in the past (Christians) or, #2. the thousands of people dying for it refers to the people of the present (Muslims). I think you meant #2, so I will just try to clarify something: The reason why I added the thing about the land's ownership in the late 7th century was to underscore a point. Many people take points in history and display them as "proofs" as to some perfidy that should not have been done; in this instance, the Crusades. They talk about the horror of the Crusades and how horrible it was that the Church allowed x and y, etc. But they don't talk about this point of history in context. It reminds me of when I see war coverage coming from PBS or other news sources. The reporters show the dying, the suffering, the mourning and how horrible it all is - and it is. But, they don't show any of it in context. They show you these soldiers who have been called out to do this mission and those people on the other side who are dying. They show you the funeral of a man who has just been shot a few hours ago and the wailing mother and sisters. But, they never once mention that all of the scenes they just shot are only taking place in a one mile perimeter of that city. Instead, they leave you with the impression that the whole country is falling apart. Everyone everywhere is dying; it is all carnage and brutality. There is nothing but war - war, war, war, war, war. Everywhere you look is war. That is what happens when you take something out of context. And, similarly, you can do the same thing with historical events. One of the things I don't appreciate about the way some people teach/remember historical events, is that they don't look at things in context. Now, granted, it is wise not to get stuck in history and be unable to forget the past. This is what a lot of people do - this is what the Jews can do about the Holocaust, it is what the blacks can do about slavery. (At least in America) There comes a time when you have to let things go and move on. [b]However[/b], and I emphasize this word very carefully, while it is a good thing to move beyond grudges, it is not a smart thing to start redefining history to suit the ends of the perpetrator and give them a "Get out of jail Free" card. My problem with the Islamic world is that I don't see a lot of people looking into the past and trying to come to terms with the shadow that they have thrown out upon the world. I don't see any repentance. Instead, I see people who only point out where we in the West have harmed them. I only see the grudges that they refuse to give up. OBL chose 9-11 for a reason. I believe it was September 11, 1683, when the Muslims lost a battle against a large Christian city and that was the turning point for their expansion into Europe. After that, the Islamic world took a tumble into a stagnation that they are still suffering from. OBL chose that date because he could never forget the humiliation of losing that battle. My G-d! What a memory for keeping a grudge! They haven't forgotten the Crusades. They are angry about colonization that took place in the late 1800's with Napoleon. These people never forgive. That is a HUGE problem with me. Instead, they play the victim card. Oh, poor us. We are living in backwater 3rd world countries - and it's all YOUR FAULT! You in the West! You kept us from expanding and taking over. It is your fault we are in trouble. And, like idiots, we enable them in their victim mentality. "Yes, you are right! It is us. Mea culpa, mea culpa!" Out of guilt, we feed that monster. We give them allowances for their barbarisms. We know they cut off peoples heads, hands and feet as part of their judicial system - but hey, who are we to judge! We aren't so forgiving, however, of those who do capital punishment in the West because it is "barbaric." In short, we have a terrible case of double standards. In our condescention, we tell the Muslims, "Oh well, I understand. You can't help yourself. You just had to blow up that bus of children. You had to kill those old people in the rest home. You had no choice but to take those planes and ram them into the twin towers. It is beyond you. You just can't help it." That is as racist as not giving them places to stay because they are Muslim. Or spitting at them as they pass in the street. It is a subtle form of racism that white people tend to do to other races and it is just as nasty as slapping that person on the face. I say, let us remember history. But let us remember it accurately. Let's not give a pass on either side and just deal with it. "You cannot change what you don't acknowledge." And we are not doing anyone else a favor by not being honest and talking about what really happened in history. All of us have a bad case of the guilts - it comes from doing bad things and then getting called on it. Germany had their Hitler. Japan had its Emperor worship cult. America has its Indian Reservations. Cambodia had its killing fields. China/Tibet. Let's not give anyone a "Get out of Jail Free pass." We all need to acknowledge the past and deal with it. [/QUOTE]
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