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PyRo99 post Sep 6 2004, 02:58 PM
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Expose your feelings on Islam, whether you hate every one of them, hate the jihadists, or if you love em all. However, do not attack one another for differentiating in beliefs.

I have two sides to my beliefs. Without a doubt, I dislike the terrorists/jihadists. They are scum too me, but they are people.

Other muslims are fine in my book, once they start to support the terrorists for blowing up schools, taking down airplanes, etc etc. Thats when I have a problem.

It's morally wrong to kill children, then again, it is also morally wrong for us to kill children, we just don't hear about it.

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pauli post Sep 6 2004, 03:42 PM
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Wow Pyro! You're brave. This is a rather difficult discussion. I have spent the past two years studying up on Islam and I have to say that I have such mixed feelings as a result. On the one hand, I don't hate the Muslims - I personally think they are - for the most part - good people. On the other, I hate the religion; I intensely dislike the philosophy behind many of their beliefs. It saddened me to find, after doing some reading, that the more religious the Muslim, the more disgusting they can act. I have never studied any religious philosophy that, I felt, was so disgusting in content - from the way they treat non-muslims to how they treat women. I can elaborate if necessary, but I will keep this posting to the bare minimum.

The following comment was made by Robert Spencer, the author of "Islam Unveiled," "between fear and political correctness there is not much being said today about Islam that is more than sugar-coated nonsense." This quote, I believe is very accurate. I read both that book and another one entitled, "Why I am Not a Muslim," by Ibn Warraq (<-a pseudonym) both were good readings to familiarize yourself with the history and basic content of beliefs in Muslim history and philosophy. Of course, some could argue they are a bit biased so if anyone chooses to read them - do so with an open mind.
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PyRo99 post Sep 6 2004, 04:24 PM
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Honsetly, I really don't have many problems with muslims.

Yes, their religion does seem to be a bit on the off ball way, but, thats because some take it so hardcorely that they think its justified to kill people for their god.

Some of them are not good people though, most are really pacifist. I know some girl, that detests everyone that catergorizes ALL muslims as "terrorists" because they're not.

Yes, we all know how they treat women. Women are not allowed to basically do anything, they are under the men's control. The men basically control them, which is sadistic.

And Yes, we also know how they treat non-muslims. Heck, they'll even threaten to behead their own, because they support Americans. Sad. Very sad.

But, Pauli, you should really express, because then this can become a huge topic. The stuff were touching on Islam, is only the basis of it all. There is much more, so I hold the door open for you too continue!

Pyro! :D
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pauli post Sep 6 2004, 05:23 PM
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Pyro, you bring up three or four topics at a time. I will respond to the women thing, though I could go on about the others too.

QUOTE
Yes, we all know how they treat women. Women are not allowed to basically do anything, they are under the men's control. The men basically control them, which is sadistic.

If only the controlling attitude were the worst of it, but it is only the beginning. (sigh) What women face in Islam is much worse. Let's take, for example, the fact that women are not allowed to go anywhere without a man - in the more extreme parts of the culture. In some countries, such as Jordan, this is not so much of a problem, but in Iran and the Taliban ruled Afghanistan, this was (is in Iran, I believe) it is the case. But this is the tip.

Let's talk about polygamy. Many women live like cattle, four married to one man. These women might seem like they are happy about it, but many talk about it behind closed doors as a wound that never heals.

Let's talk about "honor killings," where if, G-d forbid, the woman is seen walking down the street with a boy she is considered to have dishonored the family and is in danger of having her father or brother slit her throat.

Let's talk about the practice of child brides - where the girl can be married off at the age of nine because Mohammed married his wife Aiesha when she was six and consumated it when she was nine.

Let's talk about "temporary marriage" where the man can marry a woman for from about an hour up to two or three days, give her "her dowry" and then divorce her when he has used her sexually (btw, what is the difference between that and prostitution? - scratches head) (Oh, and with all of this you would think the s*x industry would not be necessary in places like Saudi Arabia and other ME countries, but the opposite is true. That industry flourishes.)

Let's talk about the fact that women are only allowed to inherit half of what a male receives from her father's estate when he dies.

Let's talk about the fact that according to Sharia law, she is viewed as half a witness in a court of law - because she is an emotional being and therefore is likely to get the facts wrong. (btw, talk about being condescending about the abilities of a woman.)

Let's talk about the fact she cannot testify in the case of rape - AT ALL, even if she did witness the act.

Let's talk about rape and how if she IS raped, she must bring four male witnesses with her to the court that WITNESSED the PENETRATION. If she brings any less than that, their testimony is not believed. And, if she does accuse the man of rape, she had better have those witnesses because, if not, she will either be accused of fornication (for the non-married woman) or adultery (if she is married.) Then, if so, she will be stoned, while the man is let of with a flogging. (Guess how many men can rape at will and the women are unable to say anything about these crimes? I don't have statistics, but the amount of rapes that happen in these countries are very high.)

Let's talk about the fact that the husband, according to Sharia law, is allowed to beat his wife if she doesn't comply with his demands. Now true, there is a process that he must go through before he gets to the point of beating her - he is supposed to shame her first by moving her out of his bed and then removing her food and privileges, but if she still won't comply he is allowed to beat her with anything from a toothbrush up to a stick the thickness of a broom handle.

This is the plight of many women in Islamic countries. There are also other problems for women that spin out of this, but I think I have addressed the topic at hand pretty thoroughly.
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diabeditor post Sep 6 2004, 07:09 PM
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I believe that if every Christian in the world was a terrible person, that in and of itself would not make Christinaity wrong. The Bible does not condone hatred and violence. The same can be said for most religions.

However, even if every Muslin in the world was a wonderful person (I know a few of them and they seem like great people), Islam would still be a bad religion. That's because of the Koran. Read it and tell me that Allah is not portrayed as a jealous, wicked, vengeful, hate-filled god.
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PyRo99 post Sep 6 2004, 07:12 PM
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In my eyes, Allah and God are the same person.
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DadOf5 post Sep 6 2004, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE(PyRo99 @ Sep 6 2004, 09:12 PM)
In my eyes, Allah and God are the same person.
*



I'm not quite sure what you mean by that PyRo. I know that Allah, the Christian God, and Yaweh (sp?) are all supposed to be the same being; the same God.
The differences come from the three different "prophets" of God. Moses for the Jewish, Jesus Christ for the Christians, and Mohammed for the Muslims.

Each of these three prophets defined a way of life for their peoples that, I imagine, was consistent with their own views on life. So, in each religion we have Yaweh, God, and Allah showing different aspects of the same being, possibly due to the differing personalities that were preaching "His Word".

My point, is that you are right; Allah and God are the same being. It is the religion itself, or rather the views and words of the prophets, that are so drastically different.
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PyRo99 post Sep 6 2004, 08:07 PM
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That is my point Dad.

Although, you are wrong about Jesus Christ not being a prophet for the Muslims. He was. Muhammad was not the only prophet for the islams.
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Unintentional post Sep 6 2004, 09:07 PM
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What I don't like in particular is an almost universal anti-zionism amongst all muslims. In the middle east nearly every muslim cleric has a copy of the protocols of the elders of zion (a complete fraud forgery that is taken as truth in the muslim community). It is not propaganda when I relate this one true story that happened/happens in a kindergarten run by the Islamic Society in Gaza.

At the graduation ceremony, they carry toy guns, hit the ground and demonstrate how they will kill the enemy. They then dip their hands in red paint and raise them to the audience in imitation of the Palenstinian youth who lynched tow Israeli soldiers in Ramallah. Then they go to the window, screaming in ecstasy to show the crowd their bloody hands.

These are kindergartners. The above incident happened in 2001, June 23.

Those kids will grow up to be impossible to reason with.

The only way we can end the occupation of Islam by the extremist that have hijacked it is to crack down on these schools and teachers.

The anti-zionism in the middle east is hippocritical as well. Israel may occupy a slight portion of palestine after they were attacked by palestine and kept the land they conquered as spoils of war and to promote their defense; but a vast more majority of palestine is occupied by lebedon, syria, jordan, and egypt. Has there ever been a suicide bombing against those countries?

Unfortunately, the press in America is too busy publishing how Christians are all right wing and express undue influence in society. It is very brave for anyone in America criticize Islam publicly, but accolades are expected in the main stream media if you criticize American heartland values as prudish and old fashioned.
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sosuemetoo post Sep 6 2004, 10:22 PM
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Pyro, I'm happy that you have brought this subject up. We are not going to "bash" religions here, but debate.

I live in America where we have become so politically correct that it almost becomes offensive when the discussion of Islam comes up. I continue to hear that it is a peaceful religion, we have freedom of religion, to debate Islam is to "stir up the enemy." In other words, It's not "nice" to say that we do not agree with Islam.

I need to preface this post with the fact that I took only one semester of "Islamic Culture" and one semester of "Women in Islam" in the past 5 years. I dated a Muslim man for five years (15 some years ago). I am a Christian. If there is anyone that practices Islam that disagrees with what I say, please say it. It will not offend me. I am only saying what I learned and what I lived.

One of the fallacies I see with Islam is that it would make women equal. It did not. The opinion of four women = one male in the Koran. According to the Koran, women are to veil themselves, never look in a man's eyes (that are not their husbands), and always be in the company of a male that is their father, their older brother or their husband. In the African Islamic culture, there is female circumcision. This is not only wrong, but barbaric. This circumcision is done without medication and to the detriment of the 2-5 year old girl.

Polygamy is acceptable in the Islamic religion. Women accept this for several reasons. The older wife will be a "helpmate" to the younger wife. She will almost become a "mother" to the younger wife and help raise the children. Most of the time, women will accept it because it is the "norm" and they do not realize that marriage is supposed to be between one man and one woman.

The practice of "child brides" is well known in the Islamic community. The reasoning behind it is to make sure that the female in the marriage is a virgin and to expand the riches future husband. The female's future husband is given money or a "dowry" when the female is "promised" to him. The female never has the option of whether or not to marry the man.

Temporary marriages are quite common especially with older Islamic men who have lost a wife. Many times these men will be "promised" to several young girls. The promise is that when the older wife dies, he will marry the "next in line" that he is promised to, and she will help bring up the children at home that the older wife left behind. He will also collect the dowry.

It is true in Islam that a husband is allowed to beat his wife or a woman who is promised to him, but not to the point of killing her. However, the killing of the wife by a husband is usually justified.

Finally:
It upsets me that the "jihadists" wish me dead simply because I am an American and a Christian. My country has donated and funded Islamic nations for longer than I can remember. My Catholic and Methodist religion has done the same. Yet they want me, my husband and my children dead. I have to ask why? What did I ever do to them?

I'm to the point of saying "If you want us out of your country, then fine. America and all Christians will cease sending funds, education, food, and anything else you might need to survive, if that is what it will take for you to stop hating us. You asked us for help, and we gave it. All we ever wanted to do was to help you when you asked for it."

As for the UN and Nato: America should cease sending aid, food, funds and/or troops. No one really appreciates it anymore. We've liberated and saved several countries in the past 60 years, and no one seems to say "Thank You." They just want to bash us and hate us. In the future, we'll just take care of ourselves.



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Phoenix post Sep 7 2004, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE(diabeditor @ Sep 6 2004, 07:09 PM)
I believe that if every Christian in the world was a terrible person, that in and of itself would not make Christinaity wrong. The Bible does not condone hatred and violence. The same can be said for most religions.

However, even if every Muslin in the world was a wonderful person (I know a few of them and they seem like great people), Islam would still be a bad religion. That's because of the Koran. Read it and tell me that Allah is not portrayed as a jealous, wicked, vengeful, hate-filled god.
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I beg to differ.
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CaryP post Sep 7 2004, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE
The anti-zionism in the middle east is hippocritical as well. Israel may occupy a slight portion of palestine after they were attacked by palestine and kept the land they conquered as spoils of war and to promote their defense; but a vast more majority of palestine is occupied by lebedon, syria, jordan, and egypt. Has there ever been a suicide bombing against those countries?

Unfortunately, the press in America is too busy publishing how Christians are all right wing and express undue influence in society. It is very brave for anyone in America criticize Islam publicly, but accolades are expected in the main stream media if you criticize American heartland values as prudish and old fashioned.

I'm anti-zionist, which is not to be confused with anti-semitic or anti-Jewish. The Zionists are part of the neocon NWO movement. Hell, they invented the whole neocon movement. Being anti-zionist has nothing to do with religion or race, it's political, and moral IMO. The Zionists were in league with Hitler. Some of the first money used to start the beginnings of a Jewish state were from Hitler's govt. back in the 1930's. The Zionists, now calling themselves neocons, have hijacked the current administration and most of our federal politicians. Criticize the Israelis govt. and see how far that gets you in Washington D.C. The Israeli govt., run by Zionists IMO, have an undue influence in our federal govt. Look at the unfolding Pentagon-Israeli spy investigation. The FBI and Justice Dept. were going to make arrests the day the story broke, but Asscroft put a stop to it. Mossad agents and Israelis spies caught here are routinely released and allowed to return to Israel. Why? What special pass do they deserve? The Zionists got in bed with the ultra conservative right wing Christians because they're zealous (fanatical in my opinion) enough to believe that God wants them take over the planet for "His greater good". The same crap used to steal the country from the American Indians. Some of the most inhumane and cruel atrocities against humanity have been done in the name of God. I'm sure God wouldn't claim most of what has been done in His name. But let's move on to Islam.

QUOTE
It upsets me that the "jihadists" wish me dead simply because I am an American and a Christian. My country has donated and funded Islamic nations for longer than I can remember. My Catholic and Methodist religion has done the same. Yet they want me, my husband and my children dead. I have to ask why? What did I ever do to them?

I'm to the point of saying "If you want us out of your country, then fine. America and all Christians will cease sending funds, education, food, and anything else you might need to survive, if that is what it will take for you to stop hating us. You asked us for help, and we gave it. All we ever wanted to do was to help you when you asked for it."

As for the UN and Nato: America should cease sending aid, food, funds and/or troops. No one really appreciates it anymore. We've liberated and saved several countries in the past 60 years, and no one seems to say "Thank You." They just want to bash us and hate us. In the future, we'll just take care of ourselves.

The jihadists don't want you dead, personally because you're an American and a Christian. They want 1) our presence out of what they consider their holy land, and 2) they want us to stop supplying Israel with military equipment and backing. I'm in favor of both. Bring our troops home, stop meddling in places that are none of our business, and leave Israel to sink or swim on its own. The jihadists don't hate us because of our freedom and our way of life. That is part of the propaganda shoveled out by the Bushco neocons to get the American public behind an ongoing war of global conquest. The US has not been "over there" just to help out. The US has had all kinds of "black bag" operations going on around the globe for decades (ever since we came out as the predominant power following WW II). Our govt. has been responsible for assassinations, coup d'etats, terrorism and its financial support, arming dictators with weapons of mass destruction, participating in the illegal drug trade, weapon sales and supply to dictators, torture, and other brands of "bad acts" we constantly accuse others of doing. And that's just the stuff that's gotten out into the public domain. Of course, not many Americans want to acknowledge that we're just as guilty of wrong doing as those we accuse. My point is "we ain't the angels" that most people would like to believe we are. That's more why the jihadists "want us dead." Read up on Osama bin Laden's reasons for war against the U.S. and the west. That's pretty much what he laid out (top two points of this paragraph) in writings from the 1990's. BTW, Osama bin Laden is a bought and paid for "asset" of the CIA, as was Saddam Hussein, and Noriega, along with I'm sure would be an extensive list.

Our "country saving" days ended with WW II. Since then our govt. has been in the "country disruption for our own ends" business. It's hard to remember the favors you did for my parents, when all you've been doing for the past 60 years is jacking with me and mine. I agree that the U.N. and NATO should be abandoned by the U.S.

I don't know much about muslims or the Islamic faith. Just about any religion, taken to extremes and misinterpretations, you can come up with some lunacy and "justification" to commit the most heinous of atrocities. That's not limited to Islam. Been done by Christians for damned sure.

Cary

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pauli post Sep 7 2004, 04:39 AM
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Posted by Cary P.:

QUOTE
I'm anti-zionist, which is not to be confused with anti-semitic or anti-Jewish. The Zionists are part of the neocon NWO movement. Hell, they invented the whole neocon movement. Being anti-zionist has nothing to do with religion or race, it's political, and moral IMO. The Zionists were in league with Hitler. Some of the first money used to start the beginnings of a Jewish state were from Hitler's govt. back in the 1930's. The Zionists, now calling themselves neocons, have hijacked the current administration and most of our federal politicians. Criticize the Israelis govt. and see how far that gets you in Washington D.C. The Israeli govt., run by Zionists IMO, have an undue influence in our federal govt. Look at the unfolding Pentagon-Israeli spy investigation. The FBI and Justice Dept. were going to make arrests the day the story broke, but Asscroft put a stop to it. Mossad agents and Israelis spies caught here are routinely released and allowed to return to Israel. Why? What special pass do they deserve? The Zionists got in bed with the ultra conservative right wing Christians because they're zealous (fanatical in my opinion) enough to believe that God wants them take over the planet for "His greater good". The same crap used to steal the country from the American Indians. Some of the most inhumane and cruel atrocities against humanity have been done in the name of God. I'm sure God wouldn't claim most of what has been done in His name. But let's move on to Islam.

Cary, with all due respect, do you care to support these assertions with some facts? The Zionists in league with Hitler??? That's such a preposterous assertion that I really want your source material on it. Hitler was out to destroy Jews, not establish them.

And, if I might ask, where did this whole "neocon" thing come from? This is a word that has been bandied about for the past year or so and is used almost like a profanity these days to put people down. From what I understand, it became used when Jews decided to back away from the Democratic party because they realized they no longer agreed with any of the values that the Democrats held any more. Now they are demonized because of this. Just so you know, many Jews did not leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left them. It went to the left, they stayed where they always had been. Now they are being branded as traitors under the word, "Neocon."

As to the Israeli spy in the Pentagon, I am sure we are going to hear about a conviction. Haven't you ever heard of the name Jonathan Pollard? He certainly wasn't given a "pass." In fact, the judge threw the book at him and gave him the harshest sentence handed out for any spy which had been caught in America up to that time. As to the fact that Israel has been spying on America, I don't like that it happens, but it happens in every country. China was caught spying on us in the late '90's and obtained all of our up to then technology for defense. Robert Hanssen spied for the Russians from the FBI. Things like this happen from time to time - unfortunately.

The "zionists" didn't "get into bed with the Conservatives" because "they're zealous (fanatical in my opinion) enough to believe that God wants them take over the planet for "His greater good;" they joined with those who shared similar values, when they discovered that the rest of the world is out to destroy their country's existence. Like it or not, the UN, Europe and many countries from around the world have a decidedly anti-Israel/pro Arab stance. They will fawn in obsequious ass-kissing to the Arabs and blast Israel should one Palestinian person's toe get stubbed as they cross through the security barriers. If the world is out to get you, you tend to draw closer to people who are supportive of you, not the ones that can't wait to see you die. And where in the world do you get your source material about the "Zionist's desire to take over the planet for "His greater good?" The Protocols of the Elders on Zion??? That is the type of source material that would assert such a ludicrous notion.

Lastly, do a search through the history of WWII and see exactly WHO supported Hitler in his war. It was the ARABS, not the Jews. The ARABS wanted Hitler to win. And if you look, you will discover that many of them bemoan the fact that he never finished his "Final Solution." What the Arabs didn't understand, however, because they didn't understand what Hitler really wanted for the world, is that had he gotten his way, the Arabs would have eventually been in those camps themselves. Hitler had no use for anyone who wasn't a blond-hair, blue eyed Aryan.

All of this is to say that even had Hitler given money to establish a Zionist entity, it was in order to get rid of the Jews out of Germany and for no other reason.


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Unintentional post Sep 7 2004, 06:33 AM
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I don't know if Zionist were in league with Hitler, but A LOT of aid (in the form of money) sent to Palestine (I don't know if we still send aid to Palestine) ultimately gets split up (to the detriment of the Palestinian people) between Israel and only ONE Palistinian, Arafat.

I said this once on the other board and it got deleted, but it is absolutely true: When persia changed it's name to Iran, they were sending a message to Hitler that they too were of the Aryan Nation. Iran is muslim for Land of Aryans.

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karizma post Sep 7 2004, 08:21 AM
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Talk...Talk...Talk. Everyone has their opinion and theory, but what can we really do to solve this problem? Sending aid doesn't seem to help, sending troops doesn't seem to help, sitting back and watching doesn't seem to help. I feel somewhat discouraged that there is no real solution. Now they are saying that al Qaeda was linked to the tragedy in Russia. For every radical that is killed it seems that there are two to take the empty place. Our violence against them only adds to their numbers and their desires to destroy us and our nation. These people have no honor or decency when they kill innocent people such as the children in Russia. So what is the answer?

Karizma
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