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Torture Condoned by the US Govt.
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<blockquote data-quote="CaryP" data-source="post: 18245" data-attributes="member: 34"><p><strong>Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.</strong></p><p></p><p>I'm not looking to get into a fight here. But the torture scandal goes way beyond having some naked guy laughed at by a woman, or putting panties on some guys head. </p><p></p><p>There are several instances where prisoners have been beaten to death or died from injuries inflicted during an 'interrogation" session. </p><p></p><p>There are several instances where the children of prisoners were abused in the presence of their parents. </p><p></p><p>There are a number of instances where prisoners have been raped (boys and females) by our military and "intelligence" personnel.</p><p></p><p>There are a lot of instances where prisoners have suffered permanent injuries from the abuse/torture they received.</p><p></p><p>This does not even begin to cover the mental/emotional damage inflicted through the humiliation of prisoners religion/religious beliefs. Yeah, okay some of it looked like college pranks and wasn't close to SEER training (whatever that is) but these people didn't VOLUNTEER to be there. They were picked up by our military and held against their wishes. Now, I'm all for kicking ass and taking names if we're at war with an enemy. I don't condone torture. The world does not condone torture. That's why there are international treaties that make torture a war crime. </p><p></p><p>And then again, who's our enemy that we're still "at war" with? The "turrurists" and "them evil doers"? Okay, what country is that? And don't hand me that "it's better to fight them on the streets of Baghdad, than on the streets of America" crap. Hell, the Iraq war has been the biggest recruiting poster for the jihadists, and better than anything they could have come up with on their own. Being over there and showing our ass and brutality isn't being seen as the "liberators" we were supposed to be.</p><p></p><p>What's really not being said about the torture scandal, is how many of these people have been detained, tortured and released without ever being charged with anything. The majority of these prisoners are not hardened jihadists, or terrorists. They just got caught up in the wrong place and wrong time. But think of it this way. Would it be okay if some foreign govt. took you out of the country, held you in captivity for 3 to 4 years, humiliated you, beat you? Only to find out they were mistaken, and you really didn't have anything to do with what they picked you up for? Everybody cool with that? I damned sure am not. </p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that terrorists should be coddled. I'm saying that most of the people being held and tortured ARE NOT TERRORISTS. They don't know jack about the WMDs (cause there are none), the battle plans of the insurgents, or if Saddam had anything to do with 9/11 (he didn't). But hey torture long enough and they'll make some sh1t up. Right? And it'll be fun and we can take lots of pictures for the folks back home. Yeah, that sounds like the plan. </p><p></p><p>The tactic of casting a big net and then selectively releasing the "fish" while beating the hell out of ALL of them is just begging for a war crimes tribunal down the road. It's not America's tradition to use torture (at least in a publicly endorsed and systemic manner). That's what facist regimes do.</p><p></p><p>As far as the troops not having a choice, I disagree. Everyone has a choice. Yeah, not following orders might have brought some heat, but not as much as what some of the sacrificial grunts are getting. Was it an excuse of "I was just following orders" for Nazi soldiers who tortured and/or executed prisoners at death camps? No. They were held accountable.</p><p></p><p>So, let me be clear. I would give no quarter to a "legitimate" terrorist. Execute 'em on the spot is fine with me. Just be damned sure they are a "legitimate" terrorist guilty of some horrible crime. Beating, raping, humiliating and torturing innocent people just to see if they know anything is/should be illegal IMO. The wholesale demonization of any group (in this case Muslim Arabs) is the recipe for genocide. Not exactly what we as Americans (hell, how about civilized human beings) are supposed to be about. Giving a green light to the systemic torture policy as practiced by the Bush admin. and military brass "cuz them A-rab muslim evil doers" "deserve it" in general is just wrong. Torture is wrong. Wholesale demonization of a race or religion is wrong. Cut it any you want. But jumping on the "kill em all, let God sort em out" bandwagon is exactly what the neocons are counting on. Don't be part of their game, and expect to remain part of what I'd call humanity.</p><p></p><p>Sorry if I went off here. I'm not mad or offended at/by anyone. It just kind of shocked me that the intelligent members here are "Yeeha'ing" the illegal and systemic torture policy endorsed and practised by the current corrupt regime. I don't want to get into anyone's politics, that's not my point. And this post is directed to anyone in particular. Hopefully, it may provoke the reader to think about just what is really going on. I'll STFU for now.</p><p></p><p>Cary</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CaryP, post: 18245, member: 34"] [b]Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.[/b] I'm not looking to get into a fight here. But the torture scandal goes way beyond having some naked guy laughed at by a woman, or putting panties on some guys head. There are several instances where prisoners have been beaten to death or died from injuries inflicted during an 'interrogation" session. There are several instances where the children of prisoners were abused in the presence of their parents. There are a number of instances where prisoners have been raped (boys and females) by our military and "intelligence" personnel. There are a lot of instances where prisoners have suffered permanent injuries from the abuse/torture they received. This does not even begin to cover the mental/emotional damage inflicted through the humiliation of prisoners religion/religious beliefs. Yeah, okay some of it looked like college pranks and wasn't close to SEER training (whatever that is) but these people didn't VOLUNTEER to be there. They were picked up by our military and held against their wishes. Now, I'm all for kicking ass and taking names if we're at war with an enemy. I don't condone torture. The world does not condone torture. That's why there are international treaties that make torture a war crime. And then again, who's our enemy that we're still "at war" with? The "turrurists" and "them evil doers"? Okay, what country is that? And don't hand me that "it's better to fight them on the streets of Baghdad, than on the streets of America" crap. Hell, the Iraq war has been the biggest recruiting poster for the jihadists, and better than anything they could have come up with on their own. Being over there and showing our ass and brutality isn't being seen as the "liberators" we were supposed to be. What's really not being said about the torture scandal, is how many of these people have been detained, tortured and released without ever being charged with anything. The majority of these prisoners are not hardened jihadists, or terrorists. They just got caught up in the wrong place and wrong time. But think of it this way. Would it be okay if some foreign govt. took you out of the country, held you in captivity for 3 to 4 years, humiliated you, beat you? Only to find out they were mistaken, and you really didn't have anything to do with what they picked you up for? Everybody cool with that? I damned sure am not. I'm not saying that terrorists should be coddled. I'm saying that most of the people being held and tortured ARE NOT TERRORISTS. They don't know jack about the WMDs (cause there are none), the battle plans of the insurgents, or if Saddam had anything to do with 9/11 (he didn't). But hey torture long enough and they'll make some sh1t up. Right? And it'll be fun and we can take lots of pictures for the folks back home. Yeah, that sounds like the plan. The tactic of casting a big net and then selectively releasing the "fish" while beating the hell out of ALL of them is just begging for a war crimes tribunal down the road. It's not America's tradition to use torture (at least in a publicly endorsed and systemic manner). That's what facist regimes do. As far as the troops not having a choice, I disagree. Everyone has a choice. Yeah, not following orders might have brought some heat, but not as much as what some of the sacrificial grunts are getting. Was it an excuse of "I was just following orders" for Nazi soldiers who tortured and/or executed prisoners at death camps? No. They were held accountable. So, let me be clear. I would give no quarter to a "legitimate" terrorist. Execute 'em on the spot is fine with me. Just be damned sure they are a "legitimate" terrorist guilty of some horrible crime. Beating, raping, humiliating and torturing innocent people just to see if they know anything is/should be illegal IMO. The wholesale demonization of any group (in this case Muslim Arabs) is the recipe for genocide. Not exactly what we as Americans (hell, how about civilized human beings) are supposed to be about. Giving a green light to the systemic torture policy as practiced by the Bush admin. and military brass "cuz them A-rab muslim evil doers" "deserve it" in general is just wrong. Torture is wrong. Wholesale demonization of a race or religion is wrong. Cut it any you want. But jumping on the "kill em all, let God sort em out" bandwagon is exactly what the neocons are counting on. Don't be part of their game, and expect to remain part of what I'd call humanity. Sorry if I went off here. I'm not mad or offended at/by anyone. It just kind of shocked me that the intelligent members here are "Yeeha'ing" the illegal and systemic torture policy endorsed and practised by the current corrupt regime. I don't want to get into anyone's politics, that's not my point. And this post is directed to anyone in particular. Hopefully, it may provoke the reader to think about just what is really going on. I'll STFU for now. Cary [/QUOTE]
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