Debate John Titor: Real Time Traveler or a Hoaxer?

[Harte]

Re: John Titor Is Not A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Roth Joint\")</div>

Titor said:
1) The West will become very unstable which gives China the confidence to \"expand\". I'm assuming you are all aware that China has millions of male soldiers right now that they know will never be able to find wives.
[/b]

Someone should point out to these soldiers just how lucky they are.

Harte

 

[Roth Joint]

Re: John Titor Is Not A Hoax Exclusive Report

<span style='color:#202020'>--By saying \"no,\" France rejects the essence and institutional
structure of Europe, forms the main axis of the EU project along with
Germany. The collapse of the French leg will also drag the
Netherlands along with it. How will an EU with a broken backbone
claim to be a continental power?

--If France and the Netherlands vote \"No\" to the new constitution, it
will likely start a rejectionist domino effect that will knock on
through Denmark, Ireland and Poland. Europe could be flattened for a
generation.


</span>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8635749
France rejects EU treaty, Europe faces crisis
Sun May 29, 2005 04:05 PM ET

By Timothy Heritage
PARIS (Reuters) - France overwhelmingly rejected the European Union's
constitution in a referendum on Sunday, pollsters' projections
showed, plunging the EU into crisis and dealing a possibly fatal blow
to a pact designed to make it run smoothly.

The heavy defeat dreaded by EU leaders could weaken France in the 25-
member bloc, stall European integration and unsettle some financial
markets. It also wounds President Jacques Chirac two years before
presidential and parliamentary elections.

Projections by three polling groups based on partial results from the
referendum suggested around 55 percent of voters had opposed the EU's
first constitution, designed to simplify decision-making following
the Union's enlargement last year.

Such a heavy defeat in a country that has long been one of the main
pillars of the EU reduces the chances of a repeat vote, which French
leaders had ruled out anyway before the referendum.


http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B55AF0AD7-8141-4820-
<span style='color:#202020'>AF19-E4DF3F93A051%7D&siteid=google
France rejects EU constitution

By Steve Goldstein, MarketWatch

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- French voters, who turned out in
estimated record numbers Sunday, have rejected the proposed European
Union constitution.

French President Jacques Chirac, in a brief televised address, said
the process of ratifying the constitution would continue in other EU
nations, despite the setback.

\"France has expressed itself democratically,\" Chirac said. \"It is
your sovereign decision, and I take note.\"

The Interior Ministry reported earlier that, with 83% of the votes
counted, the referendum was rejected by 57.26% of the voters. The EU
constitution was supported by 42.74%, officials said.

The results of the French referendum are seen as critical because of
France's position as a key leader in the EU.

The most recent pre-referendum poll showed that 54% of the French
electorate was against the constitution, despite some last-minute
lobbying by Chirac.

Voters have been against the document on concerns that Brussels is
pushing an \"Anglo-Saxon\" economic model onto them. Concerns about
Turkey's entrance into the EU and dissatisfaction with unemployment
of around 10% also have turned voters off to the constitution.

Expectations of a 'no' vote have pressured the European common
currency in recent months, as a defeat of the constitution is seen as
a political setback to the European project.

The euro has already fallen from above $1.34 in early March to the
$1.25 level. Analysts have said part of the fall is related to the
widening interest-rate differentials between the U.S. and the
eurozone, but part of the move is also tied to political instability.

A 'no' vote has also weighed on Turkish equities, as a defeat would
likely delay European Union ascension talks.

Holland on Wednesday was scheduled to vote on the constitution in a
non-binding referendum; the 'no' vote there was last at 57%,
according to polls.

The EU constitution has to be ratified by all 25 member states to
become law.

Equity markets will be closed in the U.S. and Britain on Monday, but
will be open elsewhere in Europe.</span>

 

[PhantomLord]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Well since the EU Constitution has been pretty much shot down I think its very possible that Europe could become de-stablized over this.

You have the socialist's who want one thing and the conservitives who want another.

Titor might of been a hoax, but who ever it was sure as hell was pretty damn lucky with some of his statements on the future.

 

[Hemoman]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"PhantomLord\")</div>

Well since the EU Constitution has been pretty much shot down I think its very possible that Europe could become de-stablized over this.

You have the socialist's who want one thing and the conservitives who want another.

Titor might of been a hoax, but who ever it was sure as hell was pretty damn lucky with some of his statements on the future.[/b]

I agree if it was a hoax then whoever constructed it was extremely knowledgeable or should've spent the time they did creating the titor story in vegas.

 

[pauli]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<span style='color:#202020'>

** \\"Wavering western support for Israel is what gives Israel's neighbors the confidence to attack.\\"

</span>

<span style='color:#202020'>It is this quote that makes me wonder what the Titor author meant about it. Attack whom? Israel? Europe? What? I have been reading a book about the European/Arab connection. The book, \"Eurabia,\" by Bat Yeor talks about the basis for the establishment of the EU. It was started by Charles de Gaulle in the 70's and was meant to counterbalance the U.S. of whom he thought had too much power and acendancy after WWII. In fact, in a lot of ways de Gaulle sold Europe out to the Arab nations and has created larger widespread anti Israelism and anti Americanism. This is, in large part, why Europe hates both America and Israel. It is an interesting book.</span>
[/color]
<span style='font-family:Courier New'><span style='color:#202020'>I also have been reading a book about China, entitled \"China, The Gathering Threat,\" by Constantine C. Menges. In it, he warns that China has been working to destabilize the U.S. specifically through economic means. He contends that China is waiting in the background for the opportune moment to expand and create a Greater China, establishing themselves as the next world superpower. It is interesting reading as well.</span>

If Titor is a hoax, which he could very well be, then he at least knows and understands a lot about current contemporary political themes.
</span>

 

[sinister]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

I am actually stunned by what's going on in Iraq. After thinking about all this months ago, I decided that it didn't even really matter what death toll came out of Iraq, it would always be glossed over. Now, almost every time I check cnn.com, I see more casualties. This is crazy! How could we have failed so badly over there with all our technology and strategy. I see Iran looming on our horizon, possibly another terrorist attack thrown in there, and I am like 99% confident that attacking Iran would be our utter downfall. I don't know why, but I keep seeing images from that Animatrix thing, where it showed the war between man and machine and how horrific it would be. We have such insane technology right now, we can kill very effectively, but a full-out, fairly even-sided war with all this new technology...scary.
I'm also worried that things may already be happening, and because of our twisted media, we would have no way of knowing until the bombs are at our doorsteps. That being said, I think it still will take a major event to cause martial law. From there I think it would be a pretty easy conclusion to jump to to say that Titor was right. But isn't that something in itself? One more major event, in the right context, and things will get very bad, very fast.

 

[Omega]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

George Bush is an animatron, they moved him from the hall of presidents to the white house.

 

[Roth Joint]

Re: John Titor Is Not A Hoax Exclusive Report

JT: \"...Western stability, which collapses in 2005.\"
\"The West will become very unstable...\"
\"Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West...\"

</span>Dutch Voters Follow French in Rejecting EU Constitution

Taken from:
<a href=\'http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4675597\' target=\'_blank\'>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4675597</a>

Europe Stumbles on Path to Greater Integration
by Sylvia Poggioli

The Latest Report
Jun. 1, 2005

NPR.org, June 1, 2005 ? The Netherlands today followed France in
rejecting the European Union constitution, according to exit polls, a
result that sent fresh shockwaves through the European political
establishment. Not only did the rejection lead to a cabinet shakeup
in France, it is likely to have strong repercussions on the
continent\'s broader political landscape as well.

A sampling of headlines in the European media gives a sense of the
dismay and uncertainty the French "no" unleashed: "A Turning Point
for French and European Union History," "Europe has Been Brought to a
Standstill," and "Masochist Masterpiece."

Just one year after the European Union expanded from 15 to 25 member
states, the continent\'s integration process appears to have come to a
halt. Political analysts fear that rejection of the constitution will
lead to a deadlocked and inward-looking EU, unsure of whether to
continue the ratification process.

A Loss of Momentum

The European Union will not dissolve. It will continue to function
under the previous, cumbersome treaties. But it will certainly lose
momentum. Decision-making could be stalled for months, enlargement to
new members -- particularly Muslim Turkey -- will become more
difficult, and it may become harder to impose spending and currency
discipline, leading to economic uncertainty.

The reasons for the "no" vote in France were various, contradictory
and even irrational. The "no" front stretched from the extreme right
to the extreme left, and included a large number of young people. A
key factor was widespread unease over last year\'s EU expansion, which
prompted fears of job losses to East Europeans willing to work for
lower wages (the so-called Polish plumber invasion).

France is already facing problems integrating and assimilating its 5
million Muslims and their traditions into an officially secular
society. Large numbers of French voters were very worried about the
possibility that Turkey, with a population of 70 million Muslims,
could also become an EU member.


Taken from:
<a href=\'http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=242202&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/\' target=\'_blank\'><span style=\'color:#990000\'>http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.asp...aking_news/breaking_news__international_news/</a>

European Union vision in tatters

02 June 2005 07:18

European leaders' long-held dream of anchoring the continent's greater unification in its first Constitution was dissolving before their eyes on Wednesday night after the Dutch delivered the second crushing blow to the idea in three days.

Given the chance to have their say in their first ever referendum, the Netherlands voted by an overwhelming majority against the treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe.

The Dutch rejected the treaty by 61,6% to 38,4% on a high turnout of 62%, according to a tally of almost all the votes.

Both the turnout and the margin of victory for the no camp were substantially higher than opinion polls had predicted.

Following the French rejection of the treaty at the weekend, the second blow from another founding EU member left the European elite reeling and facing the prospect of a protracted period of recrimination, conflict and crisis.

President Jacques Chirac of France said the double negative had laid bare "questions and concerns about the development of the European project". In Germany, the Chancellor, Gerhard Schr?der, warned that the crisis over the Constitution "must not become Europe's general crisis".

Jack Straw, the British foreign secretary, said the verdict of French and Dutch voters "raises profound questions for all of us about the future direction of Europe".

Although nine of the 25 members have already ratified the treaty, European leaders last night appeared to be inching towards an acceptance that the double no has killed off the Constitution. Jose Manuel Barroso, the European commission president, underlined the more nuanced approach when he made no mention of the need to continue with ratification in a statement and late-night press conference.

"It is a difficult moment for Europe," Barroso said, adding that heads of government would decide what to do next at their summit in two weeks. But he warned EU leaders not to abandon the treaty yet. "I think it will not be wise [for] leaders to come with new initiatives or unilateral decisions."

The Dutch revolt against their rulers in The Hague and Brussels was without parallel. For 50 years, the Netherlands has been a stronghold of European integration, home to the Maastricht treaty that produced the most striking instrument of unification -- the euro single currency.

As last weekend in France, the no triumph was ascribed to multiple factors all merging into a voters' mutiny.

The three-party centre-right coalition of the Christian democrat prime minister, Jan Peter Balkenende, is strongly in favour of the Constitution. It is also the most unpopular government in living memory.

The Dutch are wary of forfeiting their veto in European policy making. As the biggest per capita net contributors to the Brussels budget, they also feel bullied by the bigger countries and let down by the single currency, seen to have brought steep price rises while the currency's rulebook has been flouted with impunity by Germany and France. The economy is stagnant and unemployment has risen to 7%.

Growing anti-Muslim sentiment, opposition to EU membership for Turkey, and fears over losing control of immigration policy all contributed to the debacle for the pro-European camp, producing a surly and hostile electorate. The no camp was helped rather than hindered by a hapless government pro campaign which was late in getting off the ground and appeared to take the electorate for granted.

Balkenende said he was "very disappointed" but promised to respect the outcome.

"A no is a no," he stated, but added that the ratification process for the Constitution "can continue" in the 14 member states still to state their views.

For Europe as a whole, the next weeks and months, coinciding with the British assumption of the EU presidency, seem likely to produce bitter clashes on everything from Turkish accession and enlargement to budget agreements and economic policy. There is also the question of what can be salvaged from the Constitution, which took two years to be agreed.

In a sign of the changed atmosphere in Brussels, the leader of the Socialist group in the European Parliament backed away from his strident calls for ratification to continue. Poul Nyrup Rasmussen, the president of the Party of European Socialists, said: "It is now up to the European heads of government to come forward with a proposal for tack ling the institutional issues which the Constitution is intended to resolve. The future of the Constitution must be clarified."

British Prime Minister Tony Blair is confident fellow European leaders will eventually accept it is impossible to soldier on after such emphatic rejection by France and the Netherlands. But he accepts it may take time for Chirac to concede that the Constitution is dead. - Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005

 

[DWOMT]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Yeah sure that's some bad things happening in Europe, but I still don't think it's what Titor was talking about. European Leaders will just eventually try for unification again. It's not like the countries are collapsing or anything. They'll just be independant and negotiating till they try and unite again. It's nothing earth shattering.

 

[Apogee]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Hi Folks,

Have to agree with the previous post. As a Scotsman living in London, I?ve followed the European Constitution debate for a long time and find the results of the different referendums no great surprise.

There?s a great deal of reactionary thought in Europe when it comes to politically integrating more with other nations - Euro-sceptics certainly seem to be in the majority in the UK. But is that really any big surprise when dealing with a continent with so many differing languages and cultures? I certainly don?t believe its the beginning of any particular destabilisation of the existing EU and to believe that it is, I think, is simply misinformed.

I?m new to this forum but have followed the John Titor story for some time and although I admit I?ve not read all the ins and outs of his claims - or indeed all of the counter-claims - let me post my colours up straight away and say that my own internal logic has decided very heavily in favour of the hoax theory.

Its still a very fascinating story though, especially in what it has revealed about the complex business of human belief.

I was particularly interested to read earlier on this thread of speculation that the teenage son of a Disney employee may have contributed to concocting part of the story. It reminded me of something that might be of relevance to the whole mystery.

Whilst on holiday recently, I came across a teen-fiction paperback by author Graham Marks titled ?Skitzo?. Its a Scholastic book first published under their ?Point SF? banner in 1997 - three years before Titor ?materialised? as it were.

What attracted me to it was the blurb on the back explaining it was a time-travel tale, something I?ve always had a long-standing interest in. I can see from my explorations on this board that I?m far from alone in this. Anyway, ?Skitzo? is the story of a soldier who is sent on a mission into his past in order to fix a problem in the world of his present. So far, so un-original...

....however, the novel holds a few tantalizing similarities to the John Titor story.

For one thing, one of the main characters - the man who recruits the military time traveller - or ?pilot? as he?s referred to - is called Spenzer Timor.

Timor selects the time traveller for his military skills: The hero is described as having a ?First Class degree in Tech Engineering, with honours; trained in unarmed combat , anti-terrorist tactics and guerilla warfare.?

No great scientific knowledge is required of him. A handy - if somewhat lazy - literary device as it means the author can escape any complicated in-depth and specific explanation of his time travelling process. If any twentieth century native asks too many awkward question he simply has the character explain that he doesn?t really understand the details himself.

Admittedly, the actual plot line of the book bears little similarity to the Titor story, but I still found the coincidences intriguing. Coincidence, in my mind anyway, plays an important role in Titor?s claims as it is important for people who wish to believe him genuine to interpret historical events as corroboration.

If nothing else, it shows that many ideas are simply recycled. I believe that John Cameron was successfully sued by author Harlan Ellison for using his 1960?s ?Twilight Zone? episode entitled ? Soldier? as the basis for ?The Terminator.? It seems that if you want time-travelling military men, there are plenty about.

I wish you luck in your investigations.

Gary