Debate John Titor: Real Time Traveler or a Hoaxer?
- Thread starter Roth Joint
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Roth Joint
Junior Member
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Re: John Titor Is Not A Hoax Exclusive Report
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"DWOMT\")</div>
Exactly. Titor did not say that the West would collapse.
He said that Western stability would collapse.
And that is exactly what is happening nowadays.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"DWOMT\")</div>
Exactly. Titor did not say that the West would collapse.
He said that Western stability would collapse.
And that is exactly what is happening nowadays.
Mudpuppy
Member
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Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>
Welcome to the Forum Apogee and thanks for this fascinating addition. I can already feel certain brains smoking with the new possibilities. I think you'll find here that believers don't throw stones at disbelievers. We're all in it together till we find the answer. I believe we have all flip flopped on both sides of the fence throughout the years. Many of us have come to the conclusion that in the end, perhaps it's not the destination that we are seeking so much as the journey. While the messenger is important, the message is even more important and not being able to fully reach an absolute conclusion, we look at the message and heed it's timely and valuable advice. I really only speak for myself but know some who think like me. Others have their own hypothesis and all are welcome here.
Thanks again for a great first post and addition to this topic and our forum.
Kelley
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"DWOMT\")</div>
Agreed!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>
Welcome to the Forum Apogee and thanks for this fascinating addition. I can already feel certain brains smoking with the new possibilities. I think you'll find here that believers don't throw stones at disbelievers. We're all in it together till we find the answer. I believe we have all flip flopped on both sides of the fence throughout the years. Many of us have come to the conclusion that in the end, perhaps it's not the destination that we are seeking so much as the journey. While the messenger is important, the message is even more important and not being able to fully reach an absolute conclusion, we look at the message and heed it's timely and valuable advice. I really only speak for myself but know some who think like me. Others have their own hypothesis and all are welcome here.
Thanks again for a great first post and addition to this topic and our forum.
Kelley
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"DWOMT\")</div>
Agreed!
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Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report
Welcome to the site, Apogee I agree with what you said 100% (awesome post by the way) Like DWOMT said, I hope ya stick around! You seem like a guy who knows how to hold a fascinating conversation, and you can never know too many people like that.
Welcome to the site, Apogee
I agree with what you said 100% (awesome post by the way) Like DWOMT said, I hope ya stick around! You seem like a guy who knows how to hold a fascinating conversation, and you can never know too many people like that.Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report
Hello again,
Thanks for the warm response.
The internet has always struck me as having real potential for being a breakthrough in global debate - if not, unfortunately, in global politics. An important thing now that we're all so, well...local...cyber-wise. And I suppose like all things it was always going to have its good and bad uses.
Nice to find, however, that I've stumbled upon a real haven of unfettered 'discussion' in the proper and real sense where people aren't frightened to air their thoughts whatever they may be. I've visited many a site where passion and even anger for an idea gets in the way of proper talk. So you should know I take on board the right - and indeed the necessity - of someone to disagree.
That being the case, I acknowledge the distinction made by Roth Joint about events in Europe being (somewhat) destabilised rather than catastrophic.
Does seem like a fun place to talk about this kind of stuff.
Hello again,
Thanks for the warm response.
The internet has always struck me as having real potential for being a breakthrough in global debate - if not, unfortunately, in global politics. An important thing now that we're all so, well...local...cyber-wise. And I suppose like all things it was always going to have its good and bad uses.
Nice to find, however, that I've stumbled upon a real haven of unfettered 'discussion' in the proper and real sense where people aren't frightened to air their thoughts whatever they may be. I've visited many a site where passion and even anger for an idea gets in the way of proper talk. So you should know I take on board the right - and indeed the necessity - of someone to disagree.
That being the case, I acknowledge the distinction made by Roth Joint about events in Europe being (somewhat) destabilised rather than catastrophic.
Does seem like a fun place to talk about this kind of stuff.
Roth Joint
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>
Welcome Apogee.
Apparently, European leaders have a (somewhat) different opinion regarding Europe's future. Words such as: "crisis," "concerns," "the end of the story," "profound questions for all of us about the future direction of Europe," "deep unease,".... are clear reflections of what Titor meant when he said that European stability would collapse in 2005.
From the Associated Press:
Rejection of the treaty will trigger crisis, warn European leaders
No one has answers on European Union's future, says Berlusconi
LONDON: European leaders, facing a crisis over the second resounding defeat for a proposed E.U. Constitution, called for calm reflection on the future of their 25-member Union.
Preliminary results showed a 62 per cent ``no'' vote on Wednesday in a Netherlands referendum on the charter, following the 55 per cent ``no'' verdict by French voters just three days earlier.
``The crisis surrounding the ratification of the European Constitution must not become Europe's general crisis,'' said German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.
Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi said on Thursday that no one had any answers yet on Europe's future following the two ``no'' votes.
``These are questions we're all asking ourselves,'' Mr. Berlusconi said. ``There's no one who today has a definitive response that's valid for everyone,'' the Italy's ANSA and Apcom news agencies quoted him as saying.
French President Jacques Chirac said the Dutch vote ``shows strong expectations, questions and concerns about the development of the European project.''
The statement issued by Mr. Chirac's office called for a period of analysis of implications of the twin defeats. But many felt there was no point in pressing on with attempts to ratify the Constitution.
``I think it's the end of the story now that two important countries have said no,'' said Dutch Opposition leader Wouter Bos, who had supported the treaty.
British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, who is expected to announce next week whether Britain will go ahead with a referendum, said the result of the French and Dutch votes ``now raises profound questions for all of us about the future direction of Europe.''
Mr. Straw said, however, that a European Union that has now expanded to 25 nations needs new structures and cannot simply walk away from the Constitution project.
Ten countries have ratified the treaty, but it needs a unanimous ``yes'' from all 25, either by referendum or parliamentary vote.
``In an era of globalisation, when nations need to find new ways to work together to tackle new problems, Europe needs to be capable of giving citizens the prosperity, security, and social justice they require in ways which fit the modern world,'' Mr. Straw said.
Mr. Schroeder, in Germany, said the two votes signalled deep unease about the development of the European Union.
AP
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>
Welcome Apogee.
Apparently, European leaders have a (somewhat) different opinion regarding Europe's future. Words such as: "crisis," "concerns," "the end of the story," "profound questions for all of us about the future direction of Europe," "deep unease,".... are clear reflections of what Titor meant when he said that European stability would collapse in 2005.
From the Associated Press:
Rejection of the treaty will trigger crisis, warn European leaders
No one has answers on European Union's future, says Berlusconi
LONDON: European leaders, facing a crisis over the second resounding defeat for a proposed E.U. Constitution, called for calm reflection on the future of their 25-member Union.
Preliminary results showed a 62 per cent ``no'' vote on Wednesday in a Netherlands referendum on the charter, following the 55 per cent ``no'' verdict by French voters just three days earlier.
``The crisis surrounding the ratification of the European Constitution must not become Europe's general crisis,'' said German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.
Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi said on Thursday that no one had any answers yet on Europe's future following the two ``no'' votes.
``These are questions we're all asking ourselves,'' Mr. Berlusconi said. ``There's no one who today has a definitive response that's valid for everyone,'' the Italy's ANSA and Apcom news agencies quoted him as saying.
French President Jacques Chirac said the Dutch vote ``shows strong expectations, questions and concerns about the development of the European project.''
The statement issued by Mr. Chirac's office called for a period of analysis of implications of the twin defeats. But many felt there was no point in pressing on with attempts to ratify the Constitution.
``I think it's the end of the story now that two important countries have said no,'' said Dutch Opposition leader Wouter Bos, who had supported the treaty.
British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, who is expected to announce next week whether Britain will go ahead with a referendum, said the result of the French and Dutch votes ``now raises profound questions for all of us about the future direction of Europe.''
Mr. Straw said, however, that a European Union that has now expanded to 25 nations needs new structures and cannot simply walk away from the Constitution project.
Ten countries have ratified the treaty, but it needs a unanimous ``yes'' from all 25, either by referendum or parliamentary vote.
``In an era of globalisation, when nations need to find new ways to work together to tackle new problems, Europe needs to be capable of giving citizens the prosperity, security, and social justice they require in ways which fit the modern world,'' Mr. Straw said.
Mr. Schroeder, in Germany, said the two votes signalled deep unease about the development of the European Union.
AP
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report
A great many politicians staked their careers on pushing this constitution through. Of course they've got to describe its rejection as some kind of disaster. Chirac in particular went out if his way warning the French of a doom and gloom scenario if EU member nations didn't ratify it. He even said the reason they had to vote was simply (and rather laughably) because there was no Plan B.
People just didn't buy it. However, as dead as the issue might appear at the moment, this is politics and things can change at the drop of a hat. Ireland, for example, voted no in their referendeum and then voted yes in a second one.
Many people believe that, ultimately, the constitution was fine but favoured big business over the average citizen, in which case any future attempt to bring about closer ties with member states might actually benefit enormously from people's skepticism this time around.
And lets not forget the power of good old fashioned xenophobia: All governments pass dumb laws occasionally, but what's worse than having a dumb law enforced upon you? Having one forced upon you by a foreign country! The issues involved in a European Union are, it could be argued, much more complex than the American one.
Sure, there's a lot of dismay amongst those who worked so hard to set this thing up but I think it would be dangerous to ignore the dangers of the self-fulfilling prophecy. If you've got enough people saying this is the beginning of a major destabilisation in Europe, (and none of them are incidentally) perhaps it will create an atmosphere more likely to bring that about.
There is no reason to believe this no vote by France and the Netherlands is anything other than just another example of democracy in action. Politicians will play the fear card whenever it bolsters their arguments.
Besides it seems to me that the real burden of evidence in Titor's case is entirely on the time traveller's shoulders themselves. Instead of arguing about whether events in Europe back up his claims as accurate, why not go to town on his many inaccuracies? Not to mention his biggest zinger of all...his three rules of non-dislosure:
1. I will not disclose any information that will cause someone to personally
gain by its knowledge. This means no stock or sports tips.
2. I will not disclose any detailed information that would allow someone to
avoid death by probability. This means no earthquake or bombing information.
3. I will not disclose any information that may compromise any future
actions by individual people or threaten their family and well-being.
Telling us ANYTHING at all violates at least two of these rules. The very act of spending a few moments reading them would alter someone's timeline significantly enough to effect changes in their lives that may change them for better or worse. Why the absolute hypocrisy of this weird code of conduct?
A great many politicians staked their careers on pushing this constitution through. Of course they've got to describe its rejection as some kind of disaster. Chirac in particular went out if his way warning the French of a doom and gloom scenario if EU member nations didn't ratify it. He even said the reason they had to vote was simply (and rather laughably) because there was no Plan B.
People just didn't buy it. However, as dead as the issue might appear at the moment, this is politics and things can change at the drop of a hat. Ireland, for example, voted no in their referendeum and then voted yes in a second one.
Many people believe that, ultimately, the constitution was fine but favoured big business over the average citizen, in which case any future attempt to bring about closer ties with member states might actually benefit enormously from people's skepticism this time around.
And lets not forget the power of good old fashioned xenophobia: All governments pass dumb laws occasionally, but what's worse than having a dumb law enforced upon you? Having one forced upon you by a foreign country! The issues involved in a European Union are, it could be argued, much more complex than the American one.
Sure, there's a lot of dismay amongst those who worked so hard to set this thing up but I think it would be dangerous to ignore the dangers of the self-fulfilling prophecy. If you've got enough people saying this is the beginning of a major destabilisation in Europe, (and none of them are incidentally) perhaps it will create an atmosphere more likely to bring that about.
There is no reason to believe this no vote by France and the Netherlands is anything other than just another example of democracy in action. Politicians will play the fear card whenever it bolsters their arguments.
Besides it seems to me that the real burden of evidence in Titor's case is entirely on the time traveller's shoulders themselves. Instead of arguing about whether events in Europe back up his claims as accurate, why not go to town on his many inaccuracies? Not to mention his biggest zinger of all...his three rules of non-dislosure:
1. I will not disclose any information that will cause someone to personally
gain by its knowledge. This means no stock or sports tips.
2. I will not disclose any detailed information that would allow someone to
avoid death by probability. This means no earthquake or bombing information.
3. I will not disclose any information that may compromise any future
actions by individual people or threaten their family and well-being.
Telling us ANYTHING at all violates at least two of these rules. The very act of spending a few moments reading them would alter someone's timeline significantly enough to effect changes in their lives that may change them for better or worse. Why the absolute hypocrisy of this weird code of conduct?
Roth Joint
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report
2. I will not disclose any detailed information ...</span>
2. I will not disclose any detailed information ...</span>
Roth Joint
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
John Titor: "...Western stability, which collapses in 2005"
quote:
JT: "...Western stability, which collapses in 2005."
"The West will become very unstable..."
"Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West..."
After the French and the Dutch rejecting the EU Constitution: the "domino effect."
http://business.scotsman.com/economy.cfm?id=558622005</span>[/b]</a>
<span style=\'font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium\'>Europe in disarray as Italian economy in crisis
BILL JAMIESON
Sun 22 May 2005
AMACABRE competition appears to have broken out across the Continent
ahead of the French vote on the EU constitution: which of the
Eurozone\'s economies are in the deepest trouble and could spark a
Europe-wide crisis?
Earlier this year it looked as if Germany was the real source of the
Eurozone\'s woes. Unemployment climbed to more than five million, and
even allowing for statistical blips, there is little doubt of a
widespread lack of confidence among consumers and business.
But the real basket case may be neither Germany nor France. According
to the Economist it is Italy that is in the deepest trouble. Figures
earlier this month showed the Italian economy fell back into
recession in the first quarter of the year. The latest OECD report on
Italy argues that the country\'s slow economic growth mainly reflects
its structural failings. With the traditional option of devaluation
now closed as Italy is part of the euro bloc, there are growing
worries of a serious crisis in the public finances as tax revenues
fall behind.
These outcomes are an appalling advertisement for the agenda of
integration that drives the EU constitution. Together these three
economies account for 70% of Eurozone GDP. And the Eurozone continues
to be the weakest performer in global comparisons of growth......
quote:
JT: "...Western stability, which collapses in 2005."
"The West will become very unstable..."
"Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West..."
After the French and the Dutch rejecting the EU Constitution: the "domino effect."
http://business.scotsman.com/economy.cfm?id=558622005</span>[/b]</a>
<span style=\'font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium\'>Europe in disarray as Italian economy in crisis
BILL JAMIESON
Sun 22 May 2005
AMACABRE competition appears to have broken out across the Continent
ahead of the French vote on the EU constitution: which of the
Eurozone\'s economies are in the deepest trouble and could spark a
Europe-wide crisis?
Earlier this year it looked as if Germany was the real source of the
Eurozone\'s woes. Unemployment climbed to more than five million, and
even allowing for statistical blips, there is little doubt of a
widespread lack of confidence among consumers and business.
But the real basket case may be neither Germany nor France. According
to the Economist it is Italy that is in the deepest trouble. Figures
earlier this month showed the Italian economy fell back into
recession in the first quarter of the year. The latest OECD report on
Italy argues that the country\'s slow economic growth mainly reflects
its structural failings. With the traditional option of devaluation
now closed as Italy is part of the euro bloc, there are growing
worries of a serious crisis in the public finances as tax revenues
fall behind.
These outcomes are an appalling advertisement for the agenda of
integration that drives the EU constitution. Together these three
economies account for 70% of Eurozone GDP. And the Eurozone continues
to be the weakest performer in global comparisons of growth......
Passive_Extremist
Member
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- 157
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report
the future's uncertain and the end is always near
the future's uncertain and the end is always near