Kay Titor 177 Tempus Edax Rerum

[PamelaM]

I'm a little late to the thread, and it's been a while since I've looked into Titor so there are some things I don't remember. That being said, I'm surprised to hear that there is more than one person who is John. I'd like to know Pam, do you know how many Johns there are? Is it 2? because I'm thinking of the johntitorfoundation.com site where it says JOHN-1 and JOHN-2.

Well..here's the thing. Even when they say there is John 1 and John 2 how is this so?
When each comes back are they not another John? The same exact one is not coming back...is he?

How are they coming back with 0.0000 divergence? And how do you trust the numbers the other Johns are bringing back if they are all from different timelines?

I thought they could not go to the exact same timeline ever again? But this sounds
Like they did over and over again. It's confusing to me also.

This John says there are two. But are there really only two? Or is there 8 or more?
Is it John 0.00001, john 0.0002, john 0.0003
Etc. Since I dont know how the divergence works nor how it's calculated or what they are calling a timeline...I just dont know.

 

[PamelaM]

Did Titor ever locate that IBM360 computer with the COSM language installed in it?

Never heard of the IBM 360.

 

[PamelaM]

I mean what are we actually talking about here...we have 6 time machines...all from different time lines the variation in each machine could be 0.00000001. But it's still a variation. Are the vgls calculated exactly the same. Are the computers exactly the same. Are the atomic clocks regulated exactly the same? Is one machines 0000.3 another machines 0000.3 or is it just ever so slightly off. If anything is even off a little little bit how is it they are all using the posted numbers ? Are they taking all that into consideration? I don't know just because I don't have all the info or understanding doesn't mean it couldn't work.
I think the problem would be when ones 0000.3 is someone else's 0000.4. You know?

 

[PamelaM]

And we all know each machine contains two very DIFFERENT micro black holes. I remember John said the black hole comes to you.
So I try to piece what he said together .
However.....we are talking completely different universes here....are we not?
A balloon within a balloon within a balloon.
Unless they are only using the intertwined gravitational fields from the black holes to distort gravity where they are .affecting time only and not actually going through the black hole. That way it wouldn't matter what black holes you used you are only using it to distort gravity where you are thereby distorting time. I don't know ..


I don't know....sometimes I think iam only hearing the cover story for something else.

 

[Saturn]

I'm a little late to the thread, and it's been a while since I've looked into Titor so there are some things I don't remember. That being said, I'm surprised to hear that there is more than one person who is John. I'd like to know Pam, do you know how many Johns there are? Is it 2? because I'm thinking of the johntitorfoundation.com site where it says JOHN-1 and JOHN-2.

Well..here's the thing. Even when they say there is John 1 and John 2 how is this so?
When each comes back are they not another John? The same exact one is not coming back...is he?

How are they coming back with 0.0000 divergence? And how do you trust the numbers the other Johns are bringing back if they are all from different timelines?

I thought they could not go to the exact same timeline ever again? But this sounds
Like they did over and over again. It's confusing to me also.

This John says there are two. But are there really only two? Or is there 8 or more?
Is it John 0.00001, john 0.0002, john 0.0003
Etc. Since I dont know how the divergence works nor how it's calculated or what they are calling a timeline...I just dont know.

As I mentioned, I’m a bit forgetful with regards to everything so apologies if I say anything incorrect. My understanding is this: the divergence of 0.0000000… represents John’s original world line; the one where WWIII broke out in 2015, where the civil war happens in 2004 and where he travels back in time in 2036. I think it’s best to call this world line 0.00000… since this is the world line where the concept of world lines and divergence originated. My impression of divergence is that it’s a number (possibly a percentage?) that represents how different another world line is from the original world line. So as I used before, John’s original world line is 0.00000… because his world is 0% different from his world, makes sense right? So let’s say for example (I don’t know the true value of divergence for our world line), our world line is 2.54674… this would mean that our world line is 2.546…% different than John’s original world line.

This is just my opinion on world lines and divergence, I’m not entirely sure at all what the numbers really mean, and I can’t remember if John ever explained it.

All that being said, back to the johntitorfoundation.com website. My interpretation was always that the divergence values on there were for John to lookup if he (they) ever got lost and to guide him to where he needs to go.

Now my idea for how many Johns there are is this. I think in 2036, in the 0.0000.. divergence world line (John’s original world) a group of people (I presume 2, due to the sites labelling of JOHN-1 and JOHN-2) set out on their given mission, to go back and retrieve the IBM5100 etc.

We know that John Titor is a pseudonym right, but we assumed he was one person. I think, since you said there was more than one John that there were multiple people doing this mission. But what’s confusing is if there were multiple people on this mission representing “John Titor” then why did he stop to see his family, wouldn’t there be at least 2 people who would be seeing separate families?

Sorry for the long post I think I was mostly brainstorming here than trying to explain something…

 

[PamelaM]

I am brainstorming also...hoping something comes through to my subconscious. Lol
I am just trying to understand it.

 

[paradox404]

Rainbow

It would be interesting if John did post again.

I was far to young when he came in 2000 as I was only three years old. (I was Born in 1996) I would have so many questions to ask, as I am obsessed with the concept of time travel. (As evident from my earlier posts on here.) I imagine probably the main bulk of what I would ask would be bouncing ideas, and seeing how good my understanding is of the physics behind.

That said, if John doesn't post on the forums, I think he should at least contact Pamela.

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On the topic of time travel, I had a somewhat disturbing thought. In one of my previous posts I mentioned utopia, the central worldlines with a divergence of close to 0%.

I was thinking on the best way to get there, and remembered the quote "Necessity is the mother of invention". How does this relate to time travel you may ask? It literally has everything to do with it! In order to get to the central worldline, you have to go away from it first. You have to go backwards to go forwards.

To put this into perspective, the more you need something that doesn't exist, the more likely you are to make it. If you needed to go back in time, really badly to prevent a dystopia for instance, you would make a machine to go further, faster and better to accomplish this task. Of course, there would be limitations to this though, go too far and the tech is suppressed, stop too soon and there is no need for it. I'd say the point you would need is between 10-20% divergent from the center, further than that, and you would probably be arrested for having the tech.

Basically, it extremely difficult to get to the central worldline, I doubt it would be even possible to get to divergence 0.000000%, but it would perhaps be easy to get to maybe 0.3349823% (Random number) My personal guess is that there would be a limit based on your point of origin. That said, remember what I said about the time machine not being bound by the divergence laws? One way of getting closer to zero is to attempt a directed jump based on the information gathered by all the jumps, by perhaps all of the versions of the traveler, to attempt best guess as to the location of the center. In theory it should be possible to get within a 0.0000000001% divergence, with the only difference from the natural center being the traveller and their influence on the worldline.

Considering our divergence seems to be higher than Titors, I wonder if someone is actually trying to do that already? If we are a by product of their travel towards the center? Cue existential crisis...

You were three years old...wow I suddenly feel so old. Lol!

Well in all fairness...he DID contact me.

Seems like you may have a better idea of the divergence than I do.
I am just wondering how in the world one even calculates divergence. I mean divergence is simply different events happening and causing different results.
How is that measured ??? If gravity is the main thing measured is it how far that is off or what? They use all these numbers like 1.23 or 2.47 what the heck does that mean?
I'd like to know what are they actually measuring to tell how far the machine is off in divergence? Is it just calculated by computer and no one actually knows how this works? How does one tell they are in a universe that is 1.4 off than 3.4 off?

Is there such a thing as gravitational wave signatures? Or measured by vibrational frequencies?

Oh right, the package you were sent... Derp, I wrote that post at witching hour yesterday.

From what I understand, there are two different types of divergence. Both are incredibly difficult to calculate in their own ways. The way the numbers would work is that the number, say 1.941 for instance, would refer to how different the destination worldline is from the traveller's home worldline, in percent.

The first, which I would guess John would be referring to, is relative. Relative simply refers to how different the worldline is based upon its current state in relation to a point of reference in the home worldline. The way that this could be done is to carry a database containing all of your worldline's history so that it can easily be cross checked on arrival. This type is entirely dependent on data that exists on that worldline.

The second is absolute divergence. Absolute refers to how different is the entire worldline, at every point, from the traveler's worldline. I do not know exactly how one could go about measuring this, however I do think there would be a "Base code" that could be observed and eventually used to go to any worldline of the traveller’s choosing if it is properly understood. To actually have a rudimentary grasp of the base code, one would have to travel to a large range of worldlines though.

And there are actually a way to measure gravity from black holes, gravity waves:
Gravitational Waves: What Their Discovery Means for Science and Humanity


Calculating relative divergence

From memory John said something about sampling the gravity field around the vehicle before travelling, this is one type of data that would be used in trying to measure the divergence, as for instance, if the gravity field of the earth is halved technology and thus society would take a different path. (Second temporal axis?) To minimise the divergence error in the modern era (More accurate reading), one could use gravity readings for that point in time and take a sample and cross reference it to what it should be. A gravity reading should, in theory, give a rough guess as to the actual value. (Perhaps be a "Between this and this" type of value.)

The best way though, would to be to access the internet or some sort of library (Depending on when you are), and input the data into the machine. The idea here is to gather as much data as possible as it would be invaluable for future jumps. Basically each of the differences would have their own "Potential Divergence" value. In other words, if this was changed, how much would it change that. Depending on how the data is gathered, it could take days to months to get an accurate divergence value.

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Now, in relation to actually arriving back to ones own worldline, the best way is to go for a moving target, in other words you keep a tab of when your worldline should be and aim for that time. It does mean that one is not back instantaneously but it should provide a higher level of confidence.

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I hope this helps...

 

[paradox404]

Did Titor ever locate that IBM360 computer with the COSM language installed in it?

From memory the 360's were actually mainframes in the 60's, the IBM 5100 had an emulator for them.

 

[paradox404]

I'm a little late to the thread, and it's been a while since I've looked into Titor so there are some things I don't remember. That being said, I'm surprised to hear that there is more than one person who is John. I'd like to know Pam, do you know how many Johns there are? Is it 2? because I'm thinking of the johntitorfoundation.com site where it says JOHN-1 and JOHN-2.

Well..here's the thing. Even when they say there is John 1 and John 2 how is this so?
When each comes back are they not another John? The same exact one is not coming back...is he?

How are they coming back with 0.0000 divergence? And how do you trust the numbers the other Johns are bringing back if they are all from different timelines?

I thought they could not go to the exact same timeline ever again? But this sounds
Like they did over and over again. It's confusing to me also.

This John says there are two. But are there really only two? Or is there 8 or more?
Is it John 0.00001, john 0.0002, john 0.0003
Etc. Since I dont know how the divergence works nor how it's calculated or what they are calling a timeline...I just dont know.

Its statistically unlikely that the same John(s) would return to this timeline. You could get a similar john but never the same. That said, its also unlikely each of those johns would return to their timelines either. Too many other worldlines.

I think they have a computer somewhere that keeps tabs of their timeline, and needed information from ours to verify that the system was where it thought it was. As for the issue of trust, I guess it's like a leap of faith, as they could get you home easier but they could be giving you a bum steer as well. Assuming their information is valid, you could make a guess as to where you needed to go, and what the potential divergence values would be. (Again, this data would give a better look at the "base code")

They can't go to the exact same one, but that doesn't stop their other selves from going to that timeline. In theory they could go back for all eternity and they would never end up on the same worldline but that worldline would see each of them that arrived, heck you could even have 10,000 johns arrive on the same worldline, but they would all be different.

All the johns would be 0.000000%. From their perspective they are their own point of origin, so therefore it wouldn't make any sense to set their divergence at like 3.454345% for instance. Having a non zero divergence value only makes sense when trying to make it to the central worldline. (As the central worldline literally is the point of origin)

 

[paradox404]

I mean what are we actually talking about here...we have 6 time machines...all from different time lines the variation in each machine could be 0.00000001. But it's still a variation. Are the vgls calculated exactly the same. Are the computers exactly the same. Are the atomic clocks regulated exactly the same? Is one machines 0000.3 another machines 0000.3 or is it just ever so slightly off. If anything is even off a little little bit how is it they are all using the posted numbers ? Are they taking all that into consideration? I don't know just because I don't have all the info or understanding doesn't mean it couldn't work.
I think the problem would be when ones 0000.3 is someone else's 0000.4. You know?

Its hard to say whether they would be exactly the same, but in theory, the underlying technology should be fairly similar, with perhaps a particular part in the machine being different as it was shipped somewhere else and they received one that would have gone elsewhere. (I.e Part A-1 goes to temporal recon in John 1's timeline, but in John 2's part A-2 goes to TR instead of A-1, and A-1 goes to another enterprise.)

The way each of the John's calculate their own divergence would probably differ, as I imagine they would have a sizable database with them and would grab a random piece to sample. In that regard you could have 2 johns from worldlines 0.0000000000000000001% apart but one gets 1.875% and the other gets 1.9012%. In theroy the clocks should be regulated the same though.

I guess as the database from each VGL probably can't be stored on the average static webserver, the numbers would act as a point of reference, giving each john that arrives a point of reference. I guess you could say a kind of confidence curve could be constructed to give roughly what their divergence should be. I'll have a go and try to figure out what it should be based on averages and best guesses from that johntitorfoundation page:

1999 Dec 28:
J1: 2.48
J2: 2.49
Expected: ~2.485%

1998 Oct 12:
J1: 2.50000%
J2: 2.49998% ~ (Random guess made based on a 12 day difference.)
Expected ~2.499999%

1998 Jul 29 ~
J1: 2.5025% ~ (Guess based on the 1998 OCT jump difference between the Dec 1999 jump)
J2: 2.5000%
Expected: ~2.50125%

Based on these numbers, I could guess there is a divergence of between 0.001% and 0.005%, that said, these are different johns from the starting ones, so I imagine the data would have been shared before they left? Anyway, the divergence numbers are quite useful as they would be able to give you some sort of an idea of where you are.

As far as one being 0.0003% and another 0.0004%, that would be easier to deal with than two identical values, as you would need to make sure both selves were separated otherwise you'll get home and be followed in by yourself lol.

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I should map these values out onto a curve. I'd be able to figure out what John's divergence should be here...