The Time Traveler Test

Discussion in 'Time Travelers' started by Peregrini, Jul 8, 2012.

1. PeregriniActive Member

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The Time Traveler Test
I propose the following as a test for any alleged time traveler to prove their claim.
The layout:
Four sets of four numbers will be posted by two different posters, two sets each.
Then the same two, or if desired two new posters, will place the action symbols of +, -, x, / in place between the number sets, two by the first and one by the second.
We then have a mathematic equation that can be solved for an answer.
Here's the fun part.
The process:
Day 1 The time traveler claimant, having agreed to being tested, will post the "answer" to the equation that "will be posted over the next few days".
Day 2 The first person posts their two sets of numbers.
Day 3 The second person re-posts the original post and includes their two sets of numbers.
Day 4 The first person, or a new third person, re-posts the previous post and includes the first two action symbols, of their choice, after any two number sets.
Day 5 The second person, or a new fourth person, re-posts the previous post and includes either of the remaining action symbols in the remaining place.
Re-posting each time prevents any altering of the previous posts.
We now have an equation such as this;
1234 - 5678 x 9012 / 3456 = ?
At this time the answer given on Day 1 can be compared to the answer available on Day 5 and we "know" if we have a time traveler (or the other possibility, one hell of a psychic) or not.
The Reasoning:
Using the numbers 0-9, taken 4 at a time, order is not important, repetition is allowed gives 715 possible combinations.
These 715 combinations taken 4 at a time give 1.0798^10 number combinations. 10,798,000,000
Using any 3 out of 4 different actions on the number sets gives 24 permutations of the equation.
That is approximately 259 Billion possible answers.
Only a time traveler, who could go 5 days into the future, look at and solve the equation and return to day 1, would be able to post the correct answer.
Or as stated previously, one hell of a psychic.
If anyone were to pass this test I would, pretty much, believe anything else they told me.
If, of course, the time traveler makes the point that there are approx 259 billion timelines where each of the answers could be correct so, how would they know they were in the right timeline, is using a BS cop out and they are full of BS.
2. EinsteinActive Member

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The problem is you've picked out a scenario that only allows for one timeline to exist. Yet we all know from everyday experiences that we have freedom of choice for every action that we take. So I decided to check out and see if I really do have freedom of choice. Pick something to do that I normally would never do. So I thought about it and decided to put a different shoe on each foot. Went for a walk down the street. Everything went along smoothly without any consequences for choosing an alternate path through time. So it appears that alternate paths to the future exist for everyone to choose from. And that suggests that not even a time traveler can know which future will be. So just using simple reasoning, your test appears to be invalid.
3. PeregriniActive Member

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Switching your shoes does not create a new timeline. Going "back" in time and changing an event that had already occurred would be an example of a new timeline. You go out wearing 2 black shoes... then go "back" and do it wearing 2 brown shoes... that would be a new timeline. Going "forward" to see the result of an event and then going "back" and engaging in the event is not a new timeline.
But, most importantly, I do not concede the existence of alternate timelines. There is no scientific evidence that they exist. There is no experiment to test for their existence. This "one timeline" in which we exist is evident. Everything that occurs, occurs in this timeline and once it has occurred, there is no undoing it. There is no reset button in life. There are no respawn sites. Alternate timelines, and the belief that everything that can happen will happen, is nothing more than an attempt at avoiding the moral consequences of the decisions we make in life. Like-it-or-not, you will have to answer for your decisions. Try this defense in court: "Yes Your Honor, the victim is dead in this timeline but, in an infinite number of other timelines, he is alive and well".
4. EinsteinActive Member

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I did my test with a gray running shoe on my left foot and a white tennis shoe on my right foot. That is something I would never do. It was a choice to see if I could take a different path into the future. By your line of reasoning I should not have been able to do that. Freedom of choice for your actions would not exist if there was just one timeline. So even if you don't concede the existence of alternate timeline, the facts dictate otherwise.
5. PamelaMActive Member

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No time traveler is going to spend that much time doing an experiment like that. especially leaving and coming back.
I would ask something easier. something that doesnt require leaving the line.
6. PeregriniActive Member

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PamelaM;
As far as the time traveler is concerned this test wouldn't take much time at all. He/she agrees to be tested... Travels 5 days forward... For arguments sake we shall say that takes 5 minutes. We don't know for sure but if it takes 5 days to travel 5 days into the future, that's not a very useful time machine... Looks at the equation... Calculates the answer... Another 2 minutes. Returns to day 1... Another 5 minutes. Posts the answer... 15 minutes all together. It will take "us" 5 days to know for sure. Perhaps the time traveler will hang out and post in some more discussions with us while we wait.

Einstein;
You obviously don't know "your self" very well, because you "did" do it.

By my line of reasoning there is no reason why you can't do that.You're free to make choices but they will have consequences. Good or Bad. Actually, Freedom of Choice doesn't exist in a multiple timeline scenario. You don't choose to do something because you "will" do everything. No choice.
You exercised Freedom of Choice by "making a choice".
Why do you think you took a different path into the future? Maybe that was the one you were supposed to take?
7. PamelaMActive Member

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5 minutes? You don't know what you are asking.
Let us hope you hear from a very advanced civilization.
One that has the time machine for "fun and games." Or "shit and giggles."
One that has zero divergence and one that doesn't care if you
Ask him to leave and come all the way back through the universe again
Just so he can answer your question. One that doesn't have any accountability
To any type of commander nor has to submit any mission reports upon his return.
Sounds like fun. I bet they can't wait to get started. Especially when there is
Absolutely nothing in it for them.
8. temporal reconMember

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Glad to see Mr. Peregrini has reappeared.
Judging by his statements, it appears Mr. Peregrini is an expert on things he does not believe exist.

I would recommend you consider modifying your view and recognizing that the event happened before Einstein ever conducted his experiment. Of course, this requires an understanding that MWI is real and exists, which you do not, Mr. Peregrini, so you're a little behind the eight ball and basing your position on a false foundation.

This is not necessarily true.

Stated by someone who doesn't believe in time travel, this statement is a little incongruous.

Funny. You made me laugh over here Mr. Peregrini.

Einstein,
This is not necessarily true, but you DO bring up an interesting aspect of divergence and mission planning for time travelers.
Let me ask you, did you really undertake this experiment?
If you did, and it wasn't simply a thought experiment, did your decision to wear mismatching shoes result in anything? If your action did not result in anything of note (getting hit by a car, meeting the woman of your dreams, getting hired as some avant garde fashion consultant), then your choice did not significantly affect your world line or result in a new world line with a very large divergence. Simply stated, in a large-scale sense, it just didn't matter. (no offense).

I can appreciate your thought that this would create a new world line (and it did, it just didn't result in a large divergence). The reality is, world lines are created at the point of choice regardless of which choice you make. Interestingly, there are an infinite number of world lines with sufficiently tight divergences where your other yous exactly mirrored your choice because they had to who also wore mismatched shoes. Of course, let's leave alone the thought that it was YOU mirroring the action of another you, just as you must...Honestly, they are all you anyway.
9. PeregriniActive Member

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PamelaM
I did say; "For arguments sake we shall say that takes 5 minutes". How about if I use JT's numbers then, for accuracy. He said his machine travels ~10 years per hour. That works out to ~1.0138... days per second. So, my mistake. It will take 5 seconds. Not 5 minutes.
I wonder if stopping off in 2000 to visit his family and post on the internet was on JT's mission protocol?
No, just 5 days.
Please remember, this is a suggestion, not a requirement chiseled in stone. If an alleged time traveler doesn't want to take this test, that won't automatically refute their assertion. There are plenty of other ways to do that.

tr;
It really bothers you that you can't confute my argument, doesn't it?
You immediately begin with a personal comment.

I'm not sure what "event" you are talking about here. The shoe experiment?

This?

But, basing your position on a purely hypothetical supposition that gives an understanding that the hypothetical supposition is real and exists is not on a false foundation? You are so quick to belittle someone elses position while never offering any substance for your own.
In that I am not a physicist, I have no problem standing on the foundations built and supported by real physicists. Who's foundation do you stand on? JT's? Oh, that's right...the Everett-Wheeler MWI. I have noticed that is a theory not a Law. There is a huge difference.

In his book, A Brief History of the Multiverse, author and cosmologist, Paul Davies, offers a variety of arguments that multiverse theories are non-scientific
"For a start, how is the existence of the other universes to be tested? To be sure, all cosmologists accept that there are some regions of the universe that lie beyond the reach of our telescopes, but somewhere on the slippery slope between that and the idea that there are an infinite number of universes, credibility reaches a limit. As one slips down that slope, more and more must be accepted on faith, and less and less is open to scientific verification. Extreme multiverse explanations are therefore reminiscent of theological discussions. Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator. The multiverse theory may be dressed up in scientific language, but in essence it requires the same leap of faith."
— Paul Davies, A Brief History of the Multiverse

"As skeptical as I am, I think the contemplation of the multiverse is an excellent opportunity to reflect on the nature of science and on the ultimate nature of existence: why we are here… In looking at this concept, we need an open mind, though not too open. It is a delicate path to tread. Parallel universes may or may not exist; the case is unproved. We are going to have to live with that uncertainty. Nothing is wrong with scientifically based philosophical speculation, which is what multiverse proposals are. But we should name it for what it is."
— George Ellis, Scientific American, Does the Multiverse Really Exist?
Multiverse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Really? Care to name one way...or do I have to buy your book to see it?

Believing or not believing in time travel has nothing to do with being able to propose a test for an alleged time traveler. I do not believe time travel into the past is or ever will be possible but that doesn't stop me from enjoying time travel movies or books. I enjoy seeing how authors avoid or work through paradoxes. In The Time Machine 2002 re-make the writers do a good job of keeping the traveler from causing a paradox. I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.
10. temporal reconMember

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Not THAT is an excellent question, Mr. Peregrini. But of course, you don't believe time travel to the past is possible, so I suppose this little insight will be wasted. Anyone else care to take this question up?

But useless for your purposes? And this was the original reason for the other thread: what evidence would be enough for someone to accept that TT is real?

that is correct

At least we seem to have come to a common understanding of the difference between proof, evidence and facts.

I wonder how many scientists believed breaking the sound barrier would kill the pilot? How many scientists "agreed" on man-caused global warming? Science is not built on consensus, Mr. Peregrini. Finding one, two or several dissenting opinions on a given problem set does not automatically invalidate the opposing theory.

Wow, Mr. Peregrini. Google.com is really your friend here when conducting simple and elementary research.
I'm glad to see though in your statement, you didn't ask for "proof." At least we're learning, right? But, evidence does exist that points to multiverse, only one of which is presented here.
Scientists find first evidence that many universes exist
Are you familiar with brane-theory?

True enough
...or creating "tests" for any potential time travelers as well I see.
So let me ask you: if you do not believe time travel into the past is or ever will be possible, what use is the test then?
Are you saying you are willing to change your pronouncement?
I wonder, what evidence are you using to support your belief that time travel to the past is not possible?
11. PeregriniActive Member

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Jul 24, 2011
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Peregrini said:
Please remember, this is a suggestion, not a requirement chiseled in stone. If an alleged time traveler doesn't want to take this test, that won't automatically refute their assertion. There are plenty of other ways to do that.
I also said:
If anyone were to pass this test I would, pretty much, believe anything else they told me.
That means, if someone answered the equation correctly I would necessarily have to re-examine my "belief" that TT is not possible. Since, as of this time, there is no testable repeatable evidence that JT, or anyone else for that matter, did TT, I have no reason to re-examine my beliefs just yet. Just because "you" say it's so, doesn't make it so.

Perhaps you might answer a question for me. Do you believe a man can hold his breath for 1 day, underwater, with no additional supply of oxygen? I'm going to step ahead here and go out on a limb and answer "No" for you. Do you then believe you could invent a test for someone claiming they could, to attempt to prove it?

173... Just a guess...even earlier people didn't think a man could survive a speeds above 25 mph.
OH OH, I know this one... According to Al Gore...all of them.
No, it isn't.
No, it doesn't.
That is why experiments are devised to attempt to falsify a theory. Scientists conduct experiments in an attempt to replicate the results that led to a theory. If they are unable to replicate the earlier results, the theory is either discounted and rejected, or placed on the back burner for further study when more information is discovered. Can you say FTL Neutrino?
It is unfortunate that today's scientific community has changed from the past.
It used to be;
Observation...devise a hypothesis to explain the observation... test the hypothesis by experiments designed to falsify the hypothesis...after many tests the hypothesis graduates to a theory...After many years of testing with no falsifying results a Law is discovered.
Now, all too often, it's;
Speculate...put your speculation forward as a new theory and challenge others to accept it.
Your link, Scientists find first evidence that many universes exist, is an example of how the scientific method is supposed to be carried out. Something you have absolutely no understanding of. Did you actually "read" it? What you have used to support your statement of fact
is an idea by a group of scientists, based on observations, who stated, "The researchers emphasize that more work is needed to confirm this claim,"

The Second Law of Thermodynamics. Maybe you can notice this one has the word "Law" in it. Not theory like your evidence does.

I invite you to, please, enlighten me with the reasoning in your following statement;
I would really like to have it explained to me.

Ps. I wonder if you can see the further implications of the discoveries discussed in your link. I noticed it immediately.
12. PamelaMActive Member

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Nov 27, 2004
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Mr. Peregrini,
How would it change you if one was to convince you they were a real
Timetraveler? Is this something you would even want?
13. PamelaMActive Member

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Nov 27, 2004
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Mr. Peregrini,
How would it change you if one was to convince you they were a real
Timetraveler? Is this something you would even want?
14. EinsteinActive Member

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Peregrini

Oh I know it was an alternate path. It's not the first time I've done something like that. I did it as an experiment to see if there were any minor observational details that might be present in the alternate timepath. I have a real good detail memory of my surroundings. So I tend to notice things like a new picture on the wall, different color of paint on my car, or are the teeth on my door key in the up or down position when I go to unlock my door. There is a word that I notice that keeps yo yo-ing back and forth in it's spelling. That word is "really" or "realy" all depending on which time path I happen to be on. How do I get on a different time path? Choose a different set of daily routines. Not all those alternate time paths are identical. Some will have extra buildings, some will have fixed objects in different locations. Exactly like things going on in the TV show called Sliders. But you don't need a timer. What I think is happening is that your brain switches your conciousness with an alternate version of you each time you make a decision.

You know there is an alternate version of you that is left handed, or visa versa. Would you like to switch places with him for a day? It would be a high divergance time path. Everything might be different. Just put the hand that you normally use in your pocket. Keep it there all day long. Eventually you'll start to get comfortable using the other hand. Look around you. Anything different? You can tell me all about it if you make it back.

We'll call this the right-left hand switch experiment. But if you would like to research the topic of alternate time lines first before you go, you could ask Pamela about the scary details she experienced in the Email experiment.
15. EinsteinActive Member

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temporal recon

I don't believe a new world line is created each time a choice is made. They already exist. We merely just translate between them when we make a choice. And yes I did do the shoe experiment. Did anything odd happen? Yes. Not during the walk. It was when I got back home. I went to go take off the shoes, and something always seemed to be distracting me. I did notice that the mismatched shoes seemed to be more comfortable. It wound up being two hours later before I finally took them off. It's almost as if when I had them mismatched, I preferred them to be that way.
16. PeregriniActive Member

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PamelaM
Well, I might not be arguing with tr anymore. No,...I probably still would.
It would not change me, but it would change my understanding of "what" time is.
Absolutely.

Einstein;
It is apparent "we" have a very different opinion of "what" an alternate time line is.
I believe it involves going back, before an event takes place, and altering the event toward a different outcome.
You say it is something as simple as "changing your daily routine" or using a "different hand". That might be TMI.
17. PeregriniActive Member

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If PamelaM desires to share her experence here I would gladly read it, with an open mind.
18. PamelaMActive Member

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It's not something I choose to openly post about anymore.
19. RenSenior Member

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20. temporal reconMember

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How does this preclude distortion of gravity and traversing world lines? (given that MWI is correct, of course,

By all means, that is the point of this whole exercise.
With the understanding that MWI is correct, time travel is a byproduct of the ability to distort gravity and, by extension traverse world lines. I believe Titor was fairly explicit in this regard and I won't bother going over old ground.

Nonetheless, 12 years ago when John was explaining this part of the technology he commented on the idea that separate world lines may end at different times and are staggered. If we take a simplistic view of the array with world lines of different "lengths," one could activate his machine, separate from his worldline and not move "up or down" his worldline and simply hop to the next worldline and end up in a different time simply by virtue of the staggering effect of WL's.

The point of this is to say that there really is no reason to agonize what's "going to happen" since, world lines exist in their complete state, regardless of your "temporal position" on them, the event you're agonizing over has "already" happened on your neighboring WL and is likely to happen on yours as well (given a low div). Not sure if I was clear in my explanation.

To be completely honest, with this understanding of the multiverse, I have learned to not get so caught up in the current events of the day and wondering and worrying about the future. Why?