2004 Elections

[Darkwolf]

2004 Elections

When the Christian terrorists invaded Arabia in the 11th Century, and murdered hundreds of thousands in the name of God, and conquered, occupied, and tyrannized foreign nations, they taught the Arab peoples all they would ever need to learn about the military uses of holy orders.

The Muslims had already invaded europe, all the way up to Tours where they were stopped by the Frankish King Charls Martel. They were a unified threat long before post Roman Europe was. The Muslims came out of the box swinging. They were a violent conquiring religion while their founder was still alive, and it took force from europe to pacify them somwhat. World domination by force is one of the tenants upon which the religion was founded, and the fundimentalists of the religion still hold to this.
Fortunatly some of the people who live in the middle east are starting to wake up. Contact with our culture is partly responsible for this. That is why the fundimentalists are lashing out at us. They are trying to prove that their culture is superior to ours by destroying it.

Yes, we have theocrats in our socioty. But that kind of thing is anthethetical to what we are, so they will never gain the kind of power that the mullahs have. I don't think we'll see anyone beheaded here for not being a good enough Christian.

 

[CaryP]

2004 Elections

The opinions of reasons why Islamist radicals "hate Americans" are many and varied. Osama bin Laden crawled out of a cave long enough to make a tape that was aired on al Jazeera on Friday (I know you know unless you're living in a cave now). In this tape bin Laden said what he's always said about reasons for their holy war against the West. There are two big reasons.

1. Our govt.'s interference in their part of the world, which they consider "holy land", and having our troops/people/infidels in said "holy" territory. Our global empire is everywhere, even where it's not wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can say that we've been "invited" by the local govt., but who do you think keeps the Saudi royal family in power? It ain't the locals who are so happy with the not so royal house of Saud. If you own a puppet govt., you get an invitation anytime you want one.

2. Our govt.'s backing of the policies and operations of the Israeli govt., one of their long time enemies. The Israeli govt. practices the same level of terrorism as any of the local groups in the region, IMO. The Israeli military attacks muslim groups with tanks, helicopters, rifles, cannons, weaponry in general supplied by the US govt. Israel receives huge subsidies from the US govt. Basically, in bin Laden's eyes, we're funding, supplying and backing one of the Arab world's worst enemies. Maybe he's just jealous, as he is a known bought and paid for CIA asset - not getting his "cut" so to speak.

All the crap about "they hate our freedom and our way of life" is just that - crap. "They" couldn't give a rat's ass about our "freedom" (makes me laugh) and "our way of life." "They" want us 1) the hell out of their part of the world and their "business", and 2) to stop backing an enemy from the last few thousand years. I say we comply with both requests, and see how long it takes for that part of the world to implode. It'd save a hell of a lot of money. Problem is, the corporatists lose out on govt. contracts supplying props for the stage play called "The Middle East". Can't wait for the "stage manager" to have the curtain rise and give us the next scene.

Cary

 

[Anoah]

2004 Elections

Originally posted by CaryP@Oct 30 2004, 10:10 AM
The opinions of reasons why Islamist radicals \"hate Americans\" are many and varied. Osama bin Laden crawled out of a cave long enough to make a tape that was aired on al Jazeera on Friday (I know you know unless you're living in a cave now). In this tape bin Laden said what he's always said about reasons for their holy war against the West. There are two big reasons.

1. Our govt.'s interference in their part of the world, which they consider \"holy land\", and having our troops/people/infidels in said \"holy\" territory. Our global empire is everywhere, even where it's not wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can say that we've been \"invited\" by the local govt., but who do you think keeps the Saudi royal family in power? It ain't the locals who are so happy with the not so royal house of Saud. If you own a puppet govt., you get an invitation anytime you want one.

2. Our govt.'s backing of the policies and operations of the Israeli govt., one of their long time enemies. The Israeli govt. practices the same level of terrorism as any of the local groups in the region, IMO. The Israeli military attacks muslim groups with tanks, helicopters, rifles, cannons, weaponry in general supplied by the US govt. Israel receives huge subsidies from the US govt. Basically, in bin Laden's eyes, we're funding, supplying and backing one of the Arab world's worst enemies. Maybe he's just jealous, as he is a known bought and paid for CIA asset - not getting his \"cut\" so to speak.

All the crap about \"they hate our freedom and our way of life\" is just that - crap. \"They\" couldn't give a rat's ass about our \"freedom\" (makes me laugh) and \"our way of life.\" \"They\" want us 1) the hell out of their part of the world and their \"business\", and 2) to stop backing an enemy from the last few thousand years. I say we comply with both requests, and see how long it takes for that part of the world to implode. It'd save a hell of a lot of money. Problem is, the corporatists lose out on govt. contracts supplying props for the stage play called \"The Middle East\". ?Can't wait for the \"stage manager\" to have the curtain rise and give us the next scene.

Cary

​

Well said Cary. Read your history books people. The folks that live in that part of the world were friendly to the US prior to us getting involved in their business and making their lives a misery.

 

[StarLord]

2004 Elections

All the crap about "they hate our freedom and our way of life" is just that - crap. "They" couldn't give a rat's ass about our "freedom" (makes me laugh) and "our way of life." Cary

​

[/quote]

Exsqueeze me? You make many of good points Cary and I'll grant you that basically, we should have not been involved for a very long time over there but have you forgotten the RISK game US and Russia played with the world some 30 years ago? Each side vying to support and arm those tiny countries rather than have another 'commie' or 'free and democratic' backed country on the map staring at them or us from that map.

Sure, on the surface you have large corporations living FAT off of 'contracts' amidst the frenzy of change. They remind me more of the carrion that waits for the victor to stalk away and go sleep after it has had its feed.

The US has been pumping millions dailyinto Israels' war machine, but I doubt that we control them. They are going to take our money every day but are they going to listen? I doubt that big time. The Mossad does not work for us, they have their own agenda. These 'gifts' have been going on for scores of years, it didn't just start a few years ago. Trying to get our govt. to stop those funds would be like reaching your hand into a lions mouth to help with the tidbit lodged between it's teeth. Your trying to do a good thing there but I doubt the reception will be pleasant.

Are you going to try to tell the folks that are living there that they do not have any rights to their homeland? Not only is there a Moral reason, for them, but also a Religious reason the Jewish want to live where they are. Hasn't the US been helping and funding that spot since after WWII? Man, that is one hell of a mountain I wouldn't want to cross. Not to mention all the hidden pushing that our govt is hit with regarding this situation from the jewish population that reside here . It's a hornets nest of immense proportions.

But there are even deeper issues behind the oppositions hate for us that I feel you may have not really thought about.

To preface, let me ask you one simple question my friend, if I may. Where in the world would you choose to live and why?

Now, with that answer in mind, are you going to try and tell me that if you took 100 people from the oppositions side that were NOT in the religious ruling class, just plain country folk, and had them live here in the US for 1 year:

Free to worship as they please when they pleased. Worked in any job they pleased. Went to the corner anytime they pleased and walked into a grocery store and were able to buy anything their hearts desired. Went to go buy any type of vehicle they wanted anytime they wanted, any color they wanted, with the fancy schmancy rims that still move when you stop for a light.(I think I just heard 25 of them go Hmmmmmmmmm)Go to a mall and shop in more stores that you can shake a ak47 at, and chose to go eat at any number of types of restaurants serving chinese, mexican, korean, russian, down home american, italian,japanese, hamburgers, pizza, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Popeye's, McDonalds, Burger King, Taco Bell, Crabs Are Us, or perhaps Mrs. Fields Cookies, Ice Cream, Chocolate, Crispy Cream Donuts, A candy store that has over a thousand different types of candies, Sees Candies, Jelly Belly.................

After, you can walk into any number of DIFFERENT book stores and get lost for hours just reading all the titles and drooling. Wander into two or three music stores where you will find every type of music you thought you knew and more. Visit Video stores and choose from old VHS classics to new DVD's and the classics recently remastered (Whuups! there just went another 30 Ahhhhhhhhhhs, musta been the Star Wars fans that saw the new Remastered DVD set thats out)

Wadering even more you note a mass exodus of the sexes, the men towards Electronic stores and the ladies towards the cosmetic, jewelery and Victoria Secret type of stores and look at that, all the kids for some strange reason, skedaddled into the Toy stores. After a hour or so you walk into any number of dept stores where you can look at and buy any household appliance, doodad, geegaw, TV, Stereo, Stove, Refrigerator, Freezer, Dishwasher (HOLY CRAP! look at this! a machine that washes the dishes, I have died and gone to heaven!) Clothes of every imaginable sort, color and label. Just look at all the sales they are having!

Even when you thought that was it and it couldn't get any better, you walk out of the stores and meander down to the Cineplex where there are 20 different theaters showing the latest releases and they have all the snacks and food you could want to eat or have stick to your clothes or shoes.

Perhaps you just wanted to stay home for the evening and have your choice of a 15 or so different types of food delivered to your home (Gotta Love that phone book!) While you decide which of the 150 channels you want to watch on your cable, movies, nature, SPORTS, science, adventure, cooking, arts and crafts....

Or maybe you wanted to go see any one of several live sports events in your town, Basket Ball, Baseball (Go Boston!), Football, Tennis, Bowling, The Annual Homeslice Quarter Pitching & English 800 Guzzeling Tournament, Rodeo, Bull Riding, Darts, The Granny 1000 Quilting Bee & Gossip Fandango sponsored by Polygrip, Nascar Racing, Indy 500, Monster Car Bash Em Ups, High School Sports Events where your kids are either playing, cheering for or against the opposite team. Getting bored? scoot over to a SPORTS Bar and catch the latest scores while you have a few Cold Ones with pretzels and peanuts.

ALL THIS AND MORE AND YOU NEVER HAVE TO PULL ANY MONEY FROM YOUR POCKET OR PURSE, JUST A SMALL PLASTIC CARD....

Speaking of Drinking establishments, this country was partly founded on the fact that the pilgrims landed where they did, because they were out of Beer. There are as many different types of atmospheres and types of serving those liquids to be imbibed as you can think of, don't leave your dollar bills at home. While there you can discuss anything you want without fear of reprisal or being stoned to death because you disagreed with the mullah in charge of your town.

In fact, you can voice your opinion openly about anything except murdering a person or planing a crime, anytime you want. What a concept!! Your unhappy about the sermon last sabbath, voice your opinion!! You didn't like what your religious leader said today, shout your displeasure from your front porch, as long as it's not at 2am and your not disturbing your neighbor's sleep, you do not have to fear for your life, nor will anyone condemn you for your opinion. If you hate to see what the leader of your country is doing you can visit any number of locations around you where like minded people can go and discuss how to peacefully fix the problem.

You current religion not working for you? How about being able to enjoy the freedom go going to any temple, mosk, church, kiosk, or other type of religious center or meeting place and learn new ways to worship without fear for you or your childrens livelihood and lives.

Now, after 1 year, just how many people do you think would want to return to a place where at anytime, the person standing next to you on a bus, or in line at a store, or eating at restaurant, or waiting in traffic BLOWS UP and takes you and 50 other innocent people with them For the Glory Of their God and a chance at 75 Houris in Blissful Eternity?

Holy Wars Sux big time, as there are only people that loose in the end. Hell, WARS period Sux no matter how you look at them.

Look at the Europe, see the way that they are joining together, trying to get one currency together? Thats a foundation for learning to coexist and live together peacfully. Perhaps for them, they have learned that war is not the answer to geting the things you want, they have possibly learned that killing people is NOT a way to make your point. Perhaps folks may not believe the way others do, but you CAN live peacefully among the rest of your neighbors and still have it your way without stepping upon the rights of others. Violence only begets violence and forces the participants to take yet another life for the cause......

We are in agreement that the US needs to stay out of affairs that do not concern it. Behind the scenes there are layers upon layers of connections that are not all driven from the top that we have struggled with to untangle ourselves from.

The fact remains, The US still has the greatest amount of freedoms on this earth. We have no clue just how good we have it. Trust me on this, I have personally seen slums in Brazil. There are slums here that need work on, there are starving here in our own country that we need to feed. There are systems here that need to be fixed. We need to collectively learn how to play the game just like Ghandi did.

There are a great many things here at home we need to fix but right or wrong this is my home land. I would not live anywhere else on the Earth.

 

[CaryP]

2004 Elections

Starlord,

Thanks for the post pal. Yes, I agree with you that compared to many hell holes around the world, the U.S. is the land of plenty. I mean why do so many people from so many countries scratch and fight to get in here? We've been the promised land for a long time, but that time is probably coming to an end over the next couple of years. Globalization is bringing wages and salaries (except for the executive suite) to parity. That means income and lifestyles are coming up in places like China and India. I read an article today that said, according to the Chinese govt., 200 million Chinese are obese, high blood pressure is on the rise, and Chinese lifestyles are rising. Lifestyles here and in the "developed" countries are starting to decline. At some point, incomes here will be close to "developing" countries and we'll be experiencing second world country status. Yeeha, raise a good one to globalization and the profits accumulated by global corporations. It won't happen overnight, but real wages (net of inflation) here have been stagnant to falling since the 1980's for the average guy/gal on the street. Current projections are for global wages to reach parity in the next decade. The baby boomers won't be able to retire until they can't work anymore. I've been seeing reports of people putting off retirement later and later because they can't afford it. The largest segment of the populace declaring bankruptcy in the US is seniors (rate of growth basis). Social Security and Medicare will tank in the next 10 years max, and the baby boomers will be SOL.

As for Israel and its Mossad, my take is they control us, we've never controlled them. Check out the neocons, dual Israeli citizens and PNAC'ers in the current administration. They've got us by the short hairs. We got punked. Bush worships Sharon. I've read several accounts of their telephonic exchanges. Scowcroft, Bush Sr.'s national security advisor, has said as much. Per Scowcroft, Sharon is the problem and has been since Bush Jr. got into office. Mossad agents have been arrested by the FBI for all kinds of things. What happens? They get sent home as soon as the Israeli govt. says to cough 'em up. Look at the spy scandal from the depths of the Pentagon recently. Anything gonna happen out of that? Maybe some Pentagon stooge gets some time, or maybe not. Did Israel get a stern warning from the U.S.? Hell no. Business as usual. Mossad agents were arrested on 9/11 after they were seen filming and celebrating the fall of the WTC towers. One of the vans they were driving drove the bomb dogs wild with the explosive residue in it. What happened? Two weeks later they were back in Israel. It's all documented pal. Before someone starts banging their keyboard, I'm not anti-semitic. I'm anti-Israeli and Zionist contolled govt. That doesn't make me anti-semitic. I've got Jewish pals I socialize and golf with. I've fired a big client after he mouthed off some very harsh anti-semitic statements to me (We should have given Hitler more time to burn 'em all was his killer statement.) I'm also anti-U.S. and Zionist led govt. That doesn't make me anti-American. Okay, I'll shut up now on this.

As to our freedom, it's being taken away bits at a time. The edge of the envelope has been pushed for decades. We get a code "red" and FEMA takes over, well it's been nice knowing all of you. This place probably won't be allowed anymore. Sounds crazy conspiracy nut job don't it? It did to me too at first. But the evidence is out there. I didn't like seeing it, and had a major hard time wrapping my brain around it. But it's well documented and available, at least for now. Our govt. has become a corrupt and criminal organization. I have no idea as to any plausible "fix" for it. I'd like to believe that Paul's solution of voting the bastards out of office would work. But who in their right mind wants to crawl in the sewers we call our federal govt. to try and change things in the govt. that's supposed to be of, for and by the people? Ron Paul of Texas is the only one I know of, and he's seen as a fringe nut job. All he wants to accomplish is the abolition of the Fed, the IRS and bring fiscal responsibility back to the federal govt. Oh yeah, he's also against the new national ID card cloaked in the guise of a standardized national drivers license. Okay rant number three is over.

StarLord, I know this was a bit of a rant, and I want to make sure that we're clear that none of it is/was directed at you. The world at present looks like one big developing hell hole to me, just from the financial/economic picture. Don't even ask about politics and the drift of our "govt." I hope I'm way wrong about the outcome of things, cause the outlook looks like one big flush.


Cary

 

[StarLord]

2004 Elections

I knew that Brother, Never took it that way

Yes, for me I wish the same, may we ALL be very wrong about our fears.

 

[Cornelia]

2004 Elections

StarLord,
speaking of freedom, you made a loooooong line of items to buy. Do you think freedom=consume useless things? This is very american. And this is not freedom. Also because if you can't afford them... then you aren't enjoying any freedom, isn't it?
Also, you mentioned the free speech. Well, that's a great idea, too bad we can't get it anymore. Try to go in the street and shout "osama is right!". Why not? As long as you're not hurting anyone, you can agree with osama or... hitler if you like. I think you don't have the freedom to do that without getting into big troubles.
So, kiss goodbye to your freedom to speech.

What I'm trying to say is that you don't have to DESERVE respect. You can't judge people by the way they live. I don't like all those crazy religious beliefs, or living in caves, or beating women :angry: , or whatever they do. They live in a sh*t way? I agree. But they deserve respect just because they're human beings. And coming into the world as a human being means you have some inalienable rights, like decide the way you live and the way your country is ruled.
Do they like a fundamentalist govt which beats women and give oil to their friends only? Well... it's their right! We don't have any right to stop them! Is that a bad govt? They have the inalienable right to revolt, and if they don't, well, that's their business.

I'm not talking of human rights: I'm talking of political rights. You must rule your country, and your resources, exactly the way you like, with capitalism or socialism or Kuran or the Bible or whatever. Do we need their resources? Too bad for us. What about becoming independent from countries which don't like us? This would be really a great idea.

 

[CaryP]

2004 Elections

Some interesting numbers on the election. Thought some of you might be amused/entertained.

Cary

By The Numbers

INDEPTH: US ELECTION 2004
U.S. election: By the numbers
CBC News Online | October 29, 2004

Disputes:


6,352
The number of felons improperly registered onto the voter list. Felons can vote in Colorado only if they are out of prison and not on parole.

3,700
The number of people, most of them college age, who have registered to vote in more than one Colorado county, according to the Denver Post.

34
The number of Mississippi's 82 counties where the number of registered voters is higher than the voting-age population.

1,090
The number of election observers and monitors the U.S. Justice Department will send to 25 states to watch for violations of the Voting Rights Act, and other election problems. That's up from 317 in 2000.

10,000
The number of lawyers the Democratic party has at the ready for Nov. 2.

8,500
The number of lawyers the Republicans estimate they will have.

35,000
The number of Ohio voter registrations the state's Republicans contested in court. A judge threw out the challenge.

17,000
The number of Nevada voter registrations the state's Republicans contested. Election officials rejected the challenge.

Turnout in 2000:

60 per cent
Percentage of eligible voters who cast their ballots in the November 2000 presidential election, slightly higher than the 58 per cent who voted in 1996

111 million
The number of people who voted in the 2000 presidential election, short of the record high of 114 million set in 1992

About 70 per cent
The 2000 presidential election voting rates in the District of Columbia, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Maine and Minnesota, highest in the nation. (Click here for more highlights from the Census Bureau)

61 per cent
Percentage of eligible women voters who voted in the 2000 presidential election. That is higher than the 58 per cent of men who voted.

72 per cent
The percentage of citizens ages 65 to 74 who voted in the 2000 presidential election. This age group traditionally has the highest turnout.

70 per cent
Percentage of citizens who were registered to vote in 2000, compared with the 71 per cent registered in 1996

86 per cent
Among citizens registered to vote in the 2000 presidential election, the percentage who reported they cast ballots. That was up from 82 per cent in 1996.

21 per cent
Among people who said they were registered to vote in 2000 but did not actually vote, the percentage who gave as a reason that they were too busy or had conflicting work or school schedules. This was the most common reason given for not voting.

 

[Darkwolf]

2004 Elections

speaking of freedom, you made a loooooong line of items to buy. Do you think freedom=consume useless things? This is very american. And this is not freedom. Also because if you can't afford them... then you aren't enjoying any freedom, isn't it?

Cornelia, The freedom implied there is the freedom to do whatever the heck you want to with the money you earn. Also the freedom to start any kind of buisness you want to. This is being infringed here to a great degree, by confiscatory tax rates, zoning regulations, labor regulations, excessive environmental regulations, government subsidized unions with a liscence to extort from the companies and the workers, tax subsidized welfare, corperate welfare and many other things. However, we still enjoy it here to a much greater degree than most other places.

The freedom of speech by the way is under attack by the pollitical correctness movement. Hate speech laws come to mind. If you can't use any racial, pollitical, gender, or other ephitat that you want to, you don't have the freedom of speech. Somone who uses the N word, today is alot more likely to face consiquences than somone who declares Osama right. I think people have the right to say these things, so long as I have the right to use the A hole word on them.

Phil.

 

[Judge Bean]

2004 Elections

If you want to stack the atrocities of the "West" up against the Arabian peoples, and judge who has the higher stack, you will first of all have to peer high and far to even see the top of the stacks. The stacks reach toward heaven, but, of course, fall short of the mark ultimately. Only those in heaven can see who has the most atrocities to account for. Oh boy I hope we win! They say it's a photo finish!

Human beings have been doing so many horrid things to one another for so long that you really don't have any choice but to hope to be judged on what we have yet to do, and that God and the angels will forget the past.

Who is freer? Who is the jealous one?

Are the poor jealous of the rich, and hate and want to kill them?

Are the unfree jealous of the free to the point of hatred?

I think that freedom is hard to quantify in this way. Certainly the members of the Mossad and the CIA, and Al-Qaeda, are "freer" than most of the people they supposedly work for. They are free to travel worldwide, assassinate designated leaders, commit terrorist acts, and extort political results from oppressed people. As long as groups such as this are free to operate, we are all less free no matter where we live. The "intelligence" departments are the chief operatives of the new criminal-corporate power structure; it's muscle. The "terrorists" are gangs trying to take power by means of murder and threat. Which set of gangs do you prefer to protect your right to go shopping at the mall?

The poor do not so much mind the rich, in my opinion, so long as they do not add misery and bloodshed to poverty. You can pretty much tolerate the ignorance and cruelty of the rich so long as they do not steal your husband or shoot your children. You may not mind the limousines so long as they do not run over your goat.

As for freedom, if you do not know how you are going to get food, it hardly matters whether you have the right to a jury trial or to have an abortion or burn the flag. The fight for freedom is a privilege that falls to one by circumstance and fortune. The starving ones have no patience with either voting or noticing that their condition may be the result of tyranny.

Americans do not have the monopoly on virtue or even the best setting for freedom. We were not singled out by the terrorists; it was our turn to be assaulted. We knew it was coming, and had full advance warning, which we chose to arrogantly ignore, the way we ignore all bad news ahead of time. Because the terrorists are evil does not make us good.

America is the greatest place on earth, but I don't know if it's the best place to be on the Day of Judgment.