9/11 Revisited Again

artsouth

Member
Messages
256
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

all these are things to think about.... but what really sticks in my mind is; why was the remains taken away so fast to another country .as not to allow our people do an indeth investigation of the steel and such, also why did gw keep blockin the investigation?
 

CaryP

Senior Member
Messages
1,432
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

Hey there WOTW's,

I got some questions and some commentary for you. I interjected them in bold inside your quoted post below. Thanks.

Cary

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"waroftheworlds\")</div>
I've been interested in building design and construction for a long time now and looking at some of the articles and posts above, I think some people are taking them at face value rather than looking at the other side of the story.

Are you trained in building design, practice it professionally, or are you just \"interested\" in it?

Firstly with regards to the collapse of the WTC towers. The core was designed, as is rightly said, to support the building weight multiple times over, and house lifts, ducting, cables, electricity, gas, water and stairs as well, to create an open-plan working area. In my mind there is no doubt that the core failed on at least one building though I cannot remember if it was WTC 1 or 2. If you look at footage of the building coming down, on one of the towers you can plainly see that the core remains intact for a few seconds AFTER the building collapses round it.

Really? ?Is this your opinion in some professional capacity, or just your opinion. ?They both look like controlled demolitions to me. ?Do you have some evidence by impartial professionals that support your opinion?

What I am putting to you now is that there was another factor aside from possible core breakdown and that is the floor structure. The floors were made up of trusses- think of thick, crossbraced lattice structures, going vertically, supporting a floor on top and ceiling underneath- thats what the floors of the WTC were made of. These were (supposed to be) sprayed with a fire proof foam layer to prevent fire and heat getting to the trusses- if heat and fire get to them they are as good as guaranteed to collapse.

Guaranteed to collapse? ?Really? ?You mean like all the other steel structures that HAVEN'T collasped under much worse circumstances? ?How hot would the fire and heat have to be to melt them enough to cause a collapse? ?See the article in my next post for scientific \"facts\" about the melting temp. of steel without fire proof foam, and how hot jet fuel and furniture, paper, etc. burns. ?Truth is the 9/11 fires weren't near hot enough to melt anything of the structure, with or without fire proof foam.

Before 9/11, a survey was undertaken on the trusses to assess the condition of the fire proofing. It was found that large sections, particularly around the joints between the outer 'skin' of the tower and the inner core, were largely unprotected as well as the cross bracing on the crossbraces. This means that large amounts of heat and flame were probably able to get to the trusses and warp them to the point that they would collapse- think of heating a plastic rod while holding it horizontal.

Again, I refer you to the article in my next post below. ?The fire was not close to being hot enough given the known combustables. ?Do you have any proof or evidence to back up your claim about this alleged \"survey\" as in by whom, when, and what were the results reported.

The above argument explains the collapse of the floors in both the buildings. On just one of the two towers, the aircraft collision was such that the aircraft penetrated the core of the building, meaning that the structure was weakened because the flame and heat had a way of getting into the core- the core was protected by sheets of fireproof cladding. I believe this was blown off the core during the collision of the aircraft which allowed for heat to penetrate the core of the building.

The above arguement explains nothing. ? Sounds like you bought into the govt. commissioned report on the towers' collapse.

The reason that the core stayed intact on one building and didn't on another was again caused by the collision of the aircraft- one managed to penetrate the core and the other did not.

You have evidence or proof that the core stayed in tact in either building? ?They both looked like they completely collapsed to me.

What we have to remember is that the building was designed in the 1960's, and only built to withstand the impact of the biggest and fastest commercial airliner then- the 707. Fire caused by fuel was not considered- only impact. Aircraft have moved on. Nor can we say 'Well, another steelframed building caught fire and didn't collapse....' Each building design is different! One building could stay perfectly in shape but a similar sized building with a different construction method could topple like a house of cards. The method of construction used for the WTC was designed to allow quick and cheap building, unlike many other construction methods.

Yeah, it was designed in the 60's. ?And? ?Did the laws and rules of physics, engineering, or architecture change from that time to the present? ?If they designed it to withstand the impact of an airliner, do you think they counted on the craft being devoid of fuel, or do you think they might have, just in case, figured that maybe, just maybe an aircraft might have some unspent fuel on impact? ?The twin towers were built as the tallest structures on the planet at the time. ?I seriously doubt that slip shod, slap happy architecture, engineering and construction methods ?were used. ?If anything, the designers would have gone to extremes to make sure that the building was as safe as humanly possible. ?Again, do you have any proof to back up your claim of \"quick, and cheap building, unlike many other construction methods.\"?

[/b]
 

CaryP

Senior Member
Messages
1,432
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

Here's the article I referred to in my previous post.

Cary

http://www.cmaq.net/fr/node.php?id=20576


?The origin of ?the 9/11 mysterious 'melt down'?Foreign Press Foundation, jeudi, 07/04/2005 - 02:44
by Henk Ruyssenaars

FPF - April 7 - 2005
- According to the latest polls more than half (52%) of the Americans still wrongly believe the 9/11 WTC disaster was the result of the murderous action by the 'Red Barons' of Al Qaida, with Iraq's Saddam ?Hussein as the bad genius behind it all.

A sordid example of indoctrination of the americans, with the 'spin' of the official 9/11 version. The world is confronted with an American/Israeli terrormachine, with guided missiles and misguided people, paying the bloody price for the inhumane and unlimited global restructuring of the US's energy needs.

All those poor ignorants concerned now also are supposed to believe: \"That the hijacked airplanes that struck the World Trade Center hit with such force that the resulting explosions blew the fireproofing off the steel columns, accelerating heat buildup and weakening the structural core - contributing to the towers' eventual collapse.\" - As one of the many Newspeak specialists of the Washington Post wrote yesterday.*

So the 2 planes hit the upper part of the WTC skyscrapers high in the sky, and in the cellars ''the fireproofing blows of the core steel columns''? In their arrogance of power, bombarding us with lies through their mediocre media, they must think we are totally TV-lobotomized and stupid. The at present warmongering American/Israeli neocon-terminators are getting world infamous for their mendacity and greed, covered with lies and hypocrisy.

This last 9/11 report is one of those dirty black pearls again, on the immense and stinking string of US government cover up propaganda; lies based on the certainty that hardly anybody knows that construction steel first starts melting at 2800 or more (two-thousand-eight-hundred) degrees of heat.

And; who knows that no existing jet fuel yet has passed the highest temperature limit the Boeings jet fuel (=JP-4 / military mostly JP-8) can reach, which is 1,517 degrees?

Even adding all the paper in the WTC buildings to the inferno wouldn't help: thanks to Ray Bradbury we know that paper - like a Darwin book in the Bible Belt - already burns at Fahrenheit 451?.

Ever since I saw the airplanes crash into the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11 - and surely like many professional pilots - I?ve thought about which kind of virtuosi air acrobats those pilots must have been, even using a by the FBI 'found' video about \"How to fly a Boeing 747\".

No doubt to freshen up their memory lest they forgot the functions of one or more of the many hundreds of funny buttons and all those many coloured switches and clocks in the cockpits.

Confronted with this unbelievable and affronting idiocy, one also wonders still, which kind of unknown fuel they must have used to create this ?melt down? of even the construction steel of the buildings. Maybe 'good old American' Herr Werner von Braun, the V1 specialist, knows?

Because that kind of destruction has never happened before, demolition experts confirm. Even the most blazing fires never brought down the steel pillar structures of any skyscraper in such a perfect vertical free fall movement of demolition. Never!

What than, was said to be the reason of this unique
?melt down? of such huge steel constructions?

Official Press conference

The US's (what else?) 'National Institute of Standards and Technology' last Tuesday gave a press conference in New York, and offered a report* on the unique 'melt down' of the WTC Towers. It was the usual: by the criminal US government paid and bribed people, investigating crimes by that same government which is paying them and the way they vegetate in the shadow of government crime. So the gathered 'media people' hardly dared to ask anything critical (un-american!) , and thus haven't heard nor found anything special either about the WTC 'South Tower'. And that's strange too.

Because, even though it experienced a less forceful hit than the North Tower and had smaller fires, it fell in only half the time of its counterpart: it took only 56 minutes.*

Some like it hot

Contrary to the facts - but, as usual now - the 'sister papers' of the Jerusalem Post in the States, the 'Whitewashington Post' and the other misguiding and faking mainstream media - today broadly smear out the story that it was 'the fireproofing' which is supposed to have been 'blown off by the jets': falsely indicating that this way the steel could melt anyhow.

As Michelle Garcia wrote in her 'special' to the Washington Post yesterday: \"The process was hastened by fires outside that consumed the buildings' face and caused the exterior columns to bow in, according to the report. Still, the study by the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that no amount of fireproofing could have saved the buildings*. [ ]

\"It [WTC 2] started exploding,\" said Ross Milanytch, 57, who works at nearby Chase Manhattan Bank.* \"It was about the 70th floor. And each second another floor exploded out for about eight floors, before the cloud obscured it all.\" [ASNE] \"I saw small explosions on each floor.\" But still the perpetrators want us to believe that a plane - flying into the 70th floor above - melts the construction steel structure core in the cellars?*

The lies can easily be checked: all steel construction experts outside - and even an honest lot inside the United States - will confirm that the construction steel which was used in the WTC towers, starts melting at 2800 degrees. And that's steel without any fireproofing to be 'blown off'.

Furthermore: globally the 'fuel experts' will confirm that jet fuel will NOT burn any hotter than 1517 - (one-thousand-fivehundred-seventeen) - degrees under those circumstances, whoever is spinning and/or fanning.

One can check all steel industry and their research institutes in the whole world: no other figures are given.* Even research in Technion's library* - the 'Israeli National Institute of Technology', does not turn up higher degrees of heat.

So how was the strange 'melt down' possible? 'Only through well prepared and controlled demolition', a logical looking explanation of which very many are absolutely convinced. \"And it has been quite an operation, with many people involved, of which some have become whistle blowers\" - All the information, documentation and cross checking is available on Internet.* Including the whistle blowers.

Filming the 9/11 disaster?

Not 'whistle blowing' - nor opening their mouths - were the Israeli agents dancing on top of their Mossad 'moving van' in Manhattan, celebrating and filming the disaster as the Boeings plowed into the Twin Towers on Septemer 11th 2001.

They were - because of their very strange behavior - arrested, but heard nor charged and apparently flown out of the country home to Israel - with many of their colleagues - as fast as was possible, and never heard of nor seen again. Officially anyhow.

In the British 'Sunday Herald' editor Neil Mackay investigated the hair-raising matter and wrote*: \"There was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Center burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis?, even Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts.

They were Israelis, and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA. Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. Were they part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA?\" [more below]

The gist of the story, and contradicting the misleading reports offered now again, is that construction steel melts at around 2800 degrees and that the 'melt down' of the construction steel and pillars in the WTC buildings - resulting in a perfect vertical free fall movement of demolition - is seen as unique, better said impossible.

Even with the media and jets fueling the fire.

Remember the 'South Tower'? Even though it experienced a less forceful hit than the North Tower and had smaller fires, it fell in only half the time of its counterpart: 56 minutes. It takes five times that long to cook a turkey!

But the Bush administration and their media's 'cooking' and 'crooking' of their 9/11 story, has been going on for three and a half years now! And - as the expected spin result - still many mentally poor people believe the version of 'Spin Meisters' like Karl Rove.

Many - especially on the still free Internet* - wonder if in 'Operation 9/11' it maybe was the covert help of some kind of explosive 'Trumpets of Jericho' that brought down the walls. The 'Jericho Trumpets' which Bruce Dickinson sings about.

Some of the lyrics chillingly describe what the people in the stopped elevators, in the rubble stacked and smoke-filled stairways in the buildings must have felt just before they died; many of them by heat and despair forced to take a terminal dive:

\"This is the maze of life

This is the maze of death

This is the matrix of eternity\"

It is expected that the people guilty of the 9/11 operation; the makers of the present maze of global terror, with their bombing, machine-gunning, napalming, stealing, kidnapping/renditions, jailing, raping, humiliating, torturing and killing, will be arrested and after a fair trial - which they now deny everybody - will be punished as soon as international law is restored and International Crime Courts and Tribunals start working legally.

Judging all war criminals and their supporters cum collaborators of all nationalities. Whomever they may think they are...it's their deeds that count.

Of course never 'capital punishment': nobody wants to stoop as low as these criminals. 'Hard labor' for life in their Guantanamo and other concentration camps would be an adequate punishment.

Also guilty are the people of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey - which operated the towers until several weeks before the attacks when they were leased to a real estate company: they had never organized a complete fire drill in either building, and prohibited the use of the stairways ''afraid of them clogging up'', according to the abominable ''9/11 Commission'' hearings In New York City.

\"Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the \"official investigation\" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure.\" [US - 'Fire Engineering' - 1/4/2002]

The findings of also this 'Investigating 9/11commission' were accurately qualified by Sally Regenhard - who lost her firefighter son - and during the session in New York held up a piece of paper reading:

LIES!


Henk Ruyssenaars

Footnotes/links:

* The 9/11 WTC Collapses - txt, pictures + video:
? 'What Really Happened' - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/6yvca

* National Security Archive - on what the US rulers can do to Americans - Url.: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

* Report from NIST World Trade Center Investigation Released - Probable Collapse Sequences for Both Towers Finalized; Reports Issued for Three Projects - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/4n758

* Washington Post article - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/4ycty

* NIST - Fire Resistance Testing of WTC
? Url.: http://tinyurl.com/4jqak

* WTC fire and Mossad agents - Sunday Herald
? Url.: ?http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707

* All Steel Industry Links -
? Url.: http://www.steelforge.com/steellinks.html

* Technion - Library/Research - the 'Israeli National Institute of Technology' - Url.: http://library.technion.ac.il/Eng/librarie...es.asp?menuno=5

* FPF/HR - ''Al Qaida's 'Red Barons' and the 9/11 'melt down'' - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/5w59s


FOREIGN PRESS FOUNDATION
http://tinyurl.com/3tro9
Editor : Henk Ruyssenaars
http://tinyurl.com/66dmo
The Netherlands
[email protected]

The Dutch author this far has worked abroad 4 decades for international media as a fully independent foreign correspondent, of which 10 years - also during Gulf War I - in the Arab World and the Middle East. Seeing worldwide that every bullet and every bomb breeds more terrorism ! - At present 'Persona non Grata' in Holland :) because:

He who travels far will often see things

Far removed from what he believed was the Truth.

When he talks about it in the fields at home,

He is often accused of lying,

For the obdurate people will not believe

Inexperience, I believe,

Will give little credence to my song.

'Journey to the East' - Hermann Hesse

'The war in Iraq is illegal' says United Nation's Secretary General Kofi Annan - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/5pl2v

A 55' seconds 'sound bite' concerning the US-Israeli 'Dogs of War' - 'bringing democracy' everywhere. Url.: http://tinyurl.com/5u98v

Neocon proverb: \"We misused your taxmoney so you paid to get killed, and for your funeral, you will also be billed.''

Colin Powell: 'It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the policies of the state of Israel' Said as 'US Secretary of State' in a speech at the 'Conference on Anti-Semitism of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe' German Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Berlin - April 28th - 2004 - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/22p6c

Former PM 'Wim Kok' and other Dutch Govt's Warcriminals in Court - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/662pp

Sued: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld Over U.S. Torture Policies - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/3tgo3

It can and must be done!

Help the troops come home! Url.: http://www.bringemhome.org - We need them badly to fight our so called 'governments' - Url.: http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

HR

**COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U. S. C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed by the Foreign Press Foundation under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information\".
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

-0-http://tinyurl.com/4ycty
9/11 - Report from NIST World Trade Center Investigation Released

? ?
 

artsouth

Member
Messages
256
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

i can't belive that some people still belive the offical story??? my god its all over the net.... people can say what they want about the net... but as bad as it might be, ill belive it before id ever belive anything that comes across that propoganda box in the corner of my living room....
 

Darkwolf

Active Member
Messages
713
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

Cary, I've got to say something about that melting temprature of steel. While Steel does not become liquid untill 1500 degrees or so, it does become extremely soft and bendable at much lower tempratures than that. I have a freind who is a blacksmith, I'll ask him how hot it would have to be so that the steel could no longer bear the load.
 

CaryP

Senior Member
Messages
1,432
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

Fair enough Darkwolf. I'd like to hear what he says. The evidence is still stacked to the side that says the towers shouldn't have collapsed IMO. The twin towers are the only steel structured buildings known to have collapsed from a fire. The jet fuel couldn't have lasted that long. An exploding airliner with close to full tanks would have had exploding fuel tanks turning the fuel into a vapor, which would have burned off quickly. The furnitrue, wall covering, paper etc. don't burn hot enough to melt or compromise a steel structure like the twin towers to the point of collapse within the short time it took them to collapse. WTC 7 was clearing "pulled" in a controlled demolition, and the managing partner (Larry Silverstein) of the entity that managed/owned the WTC complex clearly states as much in a PBS documentary "Rebuilding America." The north and south towers also appear to have been "pulled" in a controlled demolition after burning for a very short period of time. Thermite is the only thing I know of in my very limited knowledge of such things that could have accomplished this. There were pools of molten steel in the 7th basement of the two towers a few months after the attack. Normal combustables would have been smothered in this kind of oxygen starved environment. Thermite would not. Thanks for your input.

Cary
 

StarLord

Senior Member
Messages
3,187
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

I can't remember exactly where, but I recently saw a "German" answer to this thing where they had gone through this with a fine tooth comb, more math and formula that you could shake a stick at. Also there were reports about 'work crews' that went into stragic spots months before to 'repair' or upgrade the beams. Those would be the places where thermite cord would be used. It's very fast, and would have been perfect to DEMO those buildings just like we have seen umpteen times when they implode a building. Those towers fell straight down. Implosion is about the only way to pull that off.
 

Darkwolf

Active Member
Messages
713
Re: 9/11 Revisited Again

No Problem Cary, I see where you are coming from. However, I have seen steel melt from an auto fire, and seen girders bowed from a structure fire, so the official version isn't that far fetched. Also While the towers were built to withstand a significant amount of lateral force. (IE a multi hundred ton object slamming into it then exploding. ) Thermite is a possibility, it consists of Iron oxide, and aluminum, both of which would be present, and both of which burn pretty hot on their own. As does Magnesium, Chromium, and a bunch of other things.
 

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