Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

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dancho

Junior Member
Messages
87
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

I was pondering this whole "John Titor" mystery last night, trying to figure out if any of his predictions make sense, since I am, like the other folks here, fascinated by this story. Then a thought occurred to me that was both thrilling and disturbing, the way that a really good horror movie is thrilling and disturbing. So I thought I would share it on the forum.

The thought that I was pondering last night had nothing to do with the "technical" aspect of John Titor's time travel or any particular message that he posted or on the philosophical question of whether time travel is possible. What I asked myself was "How could a Civil War actually start in the U.S. A., if we assume that one is being waged by 2012 and it actually begins next year? I kept wracking my brain and I could not come up with ANY reasonable way that this particular thing could occur. I know a lot about history, and civil wars just don't "erupt" over legal issues. At least, they don't unless there are large, well equipped "militia" armies or "warlord" mercenary armies that are just sitting around, looking for trouble.

So is the Civil War portion of Titor's story just too far-fetched? Well, I think I can explain (drum roll please) how Titor could be "telling the truth" even if nothing that we would call a "civil war" actually takes place.

You see, I have read a bunch of Titor's posts (but I'm no expert, just an interested observer) and I have reached the conclusion that we are making some fundamentally incorrect assumptions about John Titor. To begin with, we are over-estimating his education and his familiarity with the "facts" of history. This mistake on our part is quite understandable. We tend to think that "people from the future " will know more than we do. It does not occur to us that they may know LESS than we do. But, after giving it some thought, I believe that this would be that case.

We are the most well educated and well informed people in history. The folks who contribute to this forum are among the elite, in all of human history, in the amount of information available to us and in the way that we use that information. But, we make a mistake when we assume that John Titor is "like us" because he posted messages on a forum or chat.

I would say that Titor has a limited education. We "goes to war" at an early age. He probably is an average student when he is in school, which means that he is pretty ignorant (this is a statistical fact) compared to the folks who post on internet forums. After the nuclear war, Titor does not have access to more information, he has less access. So, the conclusion that I'm forced to draw is that Titor has no access to news or information except for what his government tells him-- and that government is telling him their official "propaganda" version of what happened, not what "really" happened. And THAT is the version that Titor gave us in his messages.

I like to use examples to illustrate points. As an example, let's say that you ask a veteran of the (North) Vietnamese Army to describe the Vietnam War. He'll say that the U.S. invaded Vietnam and, after a terrible war, the people of Vietnam threw out the invaders. Period. That is "the truth" as far as he sees it. Now, if you ask an American veteran the same thing, he'll give you a very different version of events.

So, what is the likely "truth" behind the Titor story? Well, it is possible that a very, very low intensity conflict begins in the U.S.A., with rural militia groups having occasional confrontations with federal forces. Titor probably joined one of these groups an a very early age and was "indoctrinated" as an anti-government militia member. From his (limited) point of view, he is in a war. But from the point of view of most U.S. citizens, there is NO CIVIL WAR. But, there are many militia groups who are becoming angrier and angrier.

Then comes the nuclear war. The major cities are destroyed. Now, all those militia groups are suddenly the only organized military force in most of the country. So they fill the power vacuum. A few years pass, and the official story is created and taught to soldiers like Titor. "No, we did not lose a nuclear war, we WON A CIVIL WAR! YAY!!" It's pure (and brilliant) propaganda. Now, the events which caused the militia groups to gain power (the nuclear war) are not a "disaster" but actually a GOOD thing. After all, why put a negative spin on these events, particularly when the final outcome was a "win" (sort of) for the rural militias?

All of this does not mean that Titor is a moron. He's very intelligent and probably a "war hero" and certainly able to learn fast. This does not mean that Titor could not have used highly sophisticated equipment. Intelligence and training have nothing to do with the "Jeopardy Level Knowledge of Facts" that most of us (on this forum) possess. Titor is a very smart, very capable soldier. He just lacks information, except for what his government wants him to believe.

So, there's my theory. I hope I'm wrong.
 

lev

Junior Member
Messages
144
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

::.. Very interesting dancho :: Thank you! ..::
 

Darkwolf

Active Member
Messages
713
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

So, what is the likely \"truth\" behind the Titor story? Well, it is possible that a very, very low intensity conflict begins in the U.S.A., with rural militia groups having occasional confrontations with federal forces. Titor probably joined one of these groups an a very early age and was \"indoctrinated\" as an anti-government militia member. From his (limited) point of view, he is in a war. But from the point of view of most U.S. citizens, there is NO CIVIL WAR. But, there are many militia groups who are becoming angrier and angrier.


Danso, You bring up a good point. Some people are pointing to a failure of the country to explode into an all out civil war immediatly as proof that Titor was a fraud. However, he did say it started gradually. And the occasional clashes between dissident groups and government forces you describe are a pretty standard start to a civil war. I think that the history books of the era would mark the start of the civil war with something that the public viewing without the benifit of hindsight might consider pretty innocous. It might be more accurate of him to say that "we moved into the pre-war phase after the 2004 elections, we saw isolated skirmishes and "waco events" untill the active military hostilities started in..."
I don't think any intelligent person would call a couple of skirmishes before a nuke war a "civil war" but it does point out that we don't know what form this war would take if it were to happen.

Good post and welcome Dancho
 

Grayson

Senior Member
Messages
1,079
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

My, my, what a thought provoking addition to the forum you promise to be.

Welcome dancho and keep those cogitations coming.
 

Timmy G

Member
Messages
167
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

So, the conclusion that I'm forced to draw is that Titor has no access to news or information except for what his government tells him-- and that government is telling him their official \"propaganda\" version of what happened, not what \"really\" happened. And THAT is the version that Titor gave us in his messages.

Dancho -

You pose a very insightful theory - one that will inevitably join the other possibilities that have already taken a foot-hold in my mind. You provide excellent points, thus making me wonder about not only how much JT was actually told, but how much he could artfully recall when questioned while chatting. Just because JT is from the future doesn't mean that his memory recall was exceptional. When adding your conclusion to the mix I also have to wonder if he may have been mistaken regarding a date or two (let alone the slight timeline variance he mentioned); to be quite honest, I didn't lend a lot of thought to the possibility that what he said may have not been gospel, and believed that if this guy was really from the future - he wouldn't be loaded with potential dis-information. Along with said dis-informatoin - he also may have goofed on a date or two.

Paul J Lyon has made some excellent posts - where he points out several facts somewhat along these lines - I recommend reading them; there you may find additional ammo for your theory.


Welcome aboard!!
 

dancho

Junior Member
Messages
87
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

Here is an extreme example of how far "wrong" an individual soldier can be about "what is really going on"--

"Morotai December 18, 1974 - Private Nakamura Teruo
Rumors of Japanese soldiers doggedly hiding out on the island had prompted Japanese officials to coax the loyal troops out from the mountainous interior by playing the wartime national anthem by loudspeaker.

Private Nakamura Teruo was spotted by a pilot of the Indonesian Air Force in an isolated clearing on Morotai around September 1974, but it took two months for the rumour to reach the Japanese embassy in Jakarta Nakamura, who spent more than twenty years in complete isolation, did not know the war was over, and was convinced he would be killed if he was found. Nakamura was coming out of his little hut on the morning of 18 December 1974 when he found himself surrounded by Indonesian soldiers. He handed over a well maintained rifle and his last five rounds of ammunition. Nakamura was a Formosan who had been drafted into the Japanese Army early in 1944, and he was repatriated to Taiwan, and died three years later." (my emphasis)

There are many other stories here:

http://www.wanpela.com/holdouts/registry.html

To an individual "grunt" slogging through the Florida swamps (where Titor said his militia group operated, and when he was only 14 years old) the nature of "the war" would be very hazy indeed.
 

icepick_lobotomy

Junior Member
Messages
46
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

Interesting theory and possible as any I guess, especially since I think most liberals are way too passive to kickstart a civil war like the one like the fine southern gentleman started.

Or maybe titor was talking about the ukraine?

IcePick, you have been told before to not make derogatory remarks like that, especially when you know it will incite conflict with other members of this forum. Watch your language and your tone from now on!

--Heggy
 

Mudpuppy

Member
Messages
344
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

Originally posted by dancho@Nov 24 2004, 05:23 PM
So, the conclusion that I'm forced to draw is that Titor has no access to news or information except for what his government tells him-- and that government is telling him their official \"propaganda\" version of what happened, not what \"really\" happened. And THAT is the version that Titor gave us in his messages.

I can remember while taking Ohio history in school how the textbooks put an emphasis on Sherman and Tecumsah and told the history of Native Americans far different than the history books are now recording the Indian Wars. Native Americans were murdering savages that needed Christianizing. Did history change or did the people's perspective change after things like "Dances With Wolves"? The Vietnam War is another classic example. US verterans were "babykillers and rapers" and were given no repsect at all upon returning from VietNam. Then "Rambo" came out and once again, history changes, the President constructs a wall to honor them. Did history really change? Or only the way it was percieved.

I think Dancho has brought up a very thought provoking point. What if the govt told JT the 70's version (since he was going back to that time to get the computer) or even the 90's version.......and what if that "version" changes in the future not by actual events but by perception?
 

icepick_lobotomy

Junior Member
Messages
46
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

Originally posted by icepick_lobotomy@Nov 24 2004, 09:09 PM
Interesting theory and possible as any I guess, especially since I think most liberals are way too passive to kickstart a civil war like the one like the fine southern gentlemen started.

Or maybe titor was talking about the ukraine?

IcePick, you have been told before to not make derogatory remarks like that, especially when you know it will incite conflict with other members of this forum. Watch your language and your tone from now on!

--Heggy


So you're defendiong people who owned slaves? What kind of KKK board is this?
 

DadOf5

Member
Messages
291
Another Way to Look at Titor's Predictions

Originally posted by icepick_lobotomy+Nov 26 2004, 12:01 PM--><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-icepick_lobotomy@Nov 24 2004, 09:09 PM
Interesting theory and possible as any I guess, especially since I think most liberals are way too passive to kickstart a civil war like the one like the fine southern gentlemen started.

Or maybe titor was talking about the ukraine?

IcePick, you have been told before to not make derogatory remarks like that, especially when you know it will incite conflict with other members of this forum. Watch your language and your tone from now on!

--Heggy


So you're defendiong people who owned slaves? What kind of KKK board is this?
[snapback]16222[/snapback]​
[/b][/quote]

You've gone and done it, bubba. This isn't any kind of KKK board, but we will not allow you to call anyone "southern inbreeders". You got that?

You're now up to 40% warning level, wanna try for more? Be my guest. You're already on Moderator's queue, I predict it won't be long before I'm pushing the "ban" button on your sorry behind.

Keep it up, sonny, you're making my day.

EDIT: Busy boy aren't you? You've earned yourself a permanent ban from this forum.
 

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