any Flat Earth adherents out there ???

[TheCreator]

Flat Earth proponents fail to take into account simple things like the propagation of radio waves, the presence of orbiting satellites, and airline flight paths, all which are real and proven and which are predicated on the gravitational pull and curvature of a sphere. The whole of physics breaks down under the flat earth theory.

The concept of physics breaking down is sort of the point of those who genuinely believe the earth is flat, or at least not the sphere theorized in Copernicus 500 years ago. They believe the heliocentric solar system is an intellectual concept, and that other concepts also account for the same physical phenomena we can see and touch. They base their beliefs upon observing things like the picture of Chicago taken from a distance of 60 miles, which is impossible according to the laws of physics.
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When was the last time you observed satellites orbiting earth from an observation point in space?
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If you answer you've never been in space, that you trust photos taken by NASA, you've proven their point. Our belief that the earth is a sphere circling a star is based on the schooling we received when we were young, and on our willingness to trust authorities and evidence they may present; evidence we were not present to observe for ourselves.
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Here's another one if you feel curious: Go on-line and try to get a reservation for a flight from South Africa to Australia. Measure the distance between South Africa and Australia on a map. Are you able to book a flight non-stop? How many mileage points would you accumulate if you actually took the flight you were able to book?

Again, you failed to take into account simple things that we know to be real and proven.

Starting with satellites, the argument you point out is one of whether they actually exist or not. We know they are up there because technology down here relies on them. Television, radio, internet, and even telephone service rely on these satellites, so we know they exist because we use these services. And certain aspects of these services would not be possible without their presence. So we know they are there because they are doing what we designed them to do, and there are some people who saw them before they were launched. And during the launch. And after the launch. Just because someone who wasn't there believes it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. Absence of evidence (one can't see the satellites from the ground) is not evidence of absence.

As far as flights are concerned, Quantas runs a daily flight from Johannesburg, South Africa to Sidney, Australia. It can't be booked separately, but that has nothing to do with the flat earth theory. It's because of logistics. And because of logistics, any straight line measurement on a map is irrelevant, because the actual distance traveled will depend on where the plane stops between originating point and final destination.

I know you're not a proponent of the theory, so don't take any of this personally. Any evidence flat earth theorists provide is conjecture and stems from ignorance. If they can provide hard conclusive evidence, I might reconsider.

 

[wyldberi]

There is a simple and cheap way you can prove (or disprove) that the earth is flat or spherical, using classical physics. All you need is a gyroscope mounted in a set of gymbals and some patience.

A gyro spinning at constant angular velocity will tend to maintain a constant orientation of its axis with regard to a distant point in space, rather than the earth, due to conservation of momentum. This simply means that the gyro doesn't actually rotate about a secondary axis, as long as no external torque is acting on it.

The experiment is simple. First align the gyro axis to point in the east-west direction. If the earth is actually spinning, then the gyro will appear to rotate through one full revolution in 24 hours. However, the way that it rotates will tell you whether the earth is flat or spherical.

Flat earth proponents say that the earth is essentially a flat disc. If this is the case, the gyro will slowly rotate in a horizontal plane. That is, 6 hours after the experiment begins, the gyro axis will point north & south.

However, if the earth is more or less spherical, the gyro will slowly rotate through a vertical plane throughout the day. That means that 6 hours into the experiment, the gyro axis will point up & down.

I haven't done this experiment, but it could be done in less than a day and settle the argument once and for all. Rather than argue about it, why not go and see what kinds of results you get? I'll be waiting.

We had gyroscopes to play with when I was a kid. They had a diameter of about 3 inches. You'd wind a string around the shaft that supported the disk that spins; pull the string as fast as you can and the gyroscope would spin. These came with a little stand that you could set the spinning toy on and watch it spin for a couple of minutes before inertia caused the disk to gradually slow down and eventually stop after the gyroscope fell off the stand.
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Supply me with a self-powered gyroscope that will spin at a constant speed for a 24-hour period and I'll do the experiment for you.
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Regardless of the results obtained, that will leave me with a problem. I won't know "why" gyroscopes behave as they do, and neither do the physicists, philosophers, inventors, scientists, and elementary school teachers who teach us "why" they do. It's a phenomena that does what it does and all of us can only come up with theories to explain why.
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I can't disprove your experiment. You have a list of variables and a line of reasoning that apparently accounts for the behavior of the device. The experiment is repeatable. What alternate theories account for those behaviors?
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Take a different phenomenon, time travel. Prove to me that time travel does, or does not exist. My contention is that it's impossible for me to "know" whether time travel exists or not because I'm not aware of ever having witnessed it. Science and philosophy have "proven" that time travel is impossible; and there are scientists and inventors working to make it a reality.
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I can't prove that I am not a hologram having a form of consciousness attached to it and living in a holographic universe. Whether I am a hologram or not, I'm also like a fish in a fish bowl; I have no way at this time to get out of the fish bowl to prove to myself there is a different, and larger reality that surrounds me and my fish bowl.
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Give any 5-year old child with "normal" intellectual functioning a gyroscope to play with. Eventually they will come up with a reason that explains why the thing spins and moves the way it does. That explanation will most likely not involved a spinning globe and the law of inertia. That child will believe their explanation - until you do something unexpected with the gyroscope that contradicts their line of reasoning.
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Stage magicians do this type of thing all the time. They have a good understanding of how human perception seems to work and they know how to distract their audiences while they manipulate objects in ways that defy the internalized rules we've created to explain how the physical universe behaves.
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I can tie a string around the stem of a goblet and set it on the edge of a table. I can predict that when I pull the string the goblet will fall toward the floor and the string will arrest that movement before it actually hits the floor. I can explain that gravity is the "force" that causes the glass to move downward, but I can't show you gravity. I can only show you a bunch of objects that behave the same way. When I've got you convinced that all objects always fall to the lowest solid surface beneath them, I can show you a plane and you will never believe it will fly through the air until I start the engines and release the brakes, and the wheels leave the runway.
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Believing in things we cannot verify with our physical senses is called faith. This is where physics leaves off and metaphysics begins. It is faith, believing in things that we cannot see or touch, that is the foundation upon which we organize religions and create dogmas. These are the theories that govern the worlds of metaphysics. When people live their lives in accord with these dogmas, we wind up with things like the Spanish inquisition and Jesuit priests persecuting people for publicly contradicting the Bishop of Rome who declared the world to be flat - until the the Jesuit priest Copernicus formulated the concept of the earth being a spherical object rotating around a central sun in heliocentric solar system. After a period of time this theory became the preferred theory and a different Pope codified a new doctrine that declared the earth is, indeed, round. And since it was round, it permitted more Jesuit priests to go out and spread the "gospel" and cast the net of spiritual and political control over indigenous populations in those new worlds that hadn't existed prior to the voyages of Columbus and Balboa and other explorers.
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It was through propaganda that Hitler's minions convinced the German people to accept as an article of faith that Jews and Gypsies were an inferior form of life and not worth worrying about the fate they suffered. It is through propaganda and faith that fundamentalist Muslims and Christians are being convinced that war between the two sides is inevitable. Personally, I find the "keep an open mind" attitude of "flat earthers" to be more humane and preferable to that alternative.

 

[TimeFlipper]

The Nazis used gyro compasses in their V1 flying bombs Einstein

 

[TheCreator]

There is a simple and cheap way you can prove (or disprove) that the earth is flat or spherical, using classical physics. All you need is a gyroscope mounted in a set of gymbals and some patience.

A gyro spinning at constant angular velocity will tend to maintain a constant orientation of its axis with regard to a distant point in space, rather than the earth, due to conservation of momentum. This simply means that the gyro doesn't actually rotate about a secondary axis, as long as no external torque is acting on it.

The experiment is simple. First align the gyro axis to point in the east-west direction. If the earth is actually spinning, then the gyro will appear to rotate through one full revolution in 24 hours. However, the way that it rotates will tell you whether the earth is flat or spherical.

Flat earth proponents say that the earth is essentially a flat disc. If this is the case, the gyro will slowly rotate in a horizontal plane. That is, 6 hours after the experiment begins, the gyro axis will point north & south.

However, if the earth is more or less spherical, the gyro will slowly rotate through a vertical plane throughout the day. That means that 6 hours into the experiment, the gyro axis will point up & down.

I haven't done this experiment, but it could be done in less than a day and settle the argument once and for all. Rather than argue about it, why not go and see what kinds of results you get? I'll be waiting.

We had gyroscopes to play with when I was a kid. They had a diameter of about 3 inches. You'd wind a string around the shaft that supported the disk that spins; pull the string as fast as you can and the gyroscope would spin. These came with a little stand that you could set the spinning toy on and watch it spin for a couple of minutes before inertia caused the disk to gradually slow down and eventually stop after the gyroscope fell off the stand.
-
Supply me with a self-powered gyroscope that will spin at a constant speed for a 24-hour period and I'll do the experiment for you.
-
Regardless of the results obtained, that will leave me with a problem. I won't know "why" gyroscopes behave as they do, and neither do the physicists, philosophers, inventors, scientists, and elementary school teachers who teach us "why" they do. It's a phenomena that does what it does and all of us can only come up with theories to explain why.
-
I can't disprove your experiment. You have a list of variables and a line of reasoning that apparently accounts for the behavior of the device. The experiment is repeatable. What alternate theories account for those behaviors?
-
Take a different phenomenon, time travel. Prove to me that time travel does, or does not exist. My contention is that it's impossible for me to "know" whether time travel exists or not because I'm not aware of ever having witnessed it. Science and philosophy have "proven" that time travel is impossible; and there are scientists and inventors working to make it a reality.
-
I can't prove that I am not a hologram having a form of consciousness attached to it and living in a holographic universe. Whether I am a hologram or not, I'm also like a fish in a fish bowl; I have no way at this time to get out of the fish bowl to prove to myself there is a different, and larger reality that surrounds me and my fish bowl.
-
Give any 5-year old child with "normal" intellectual functioning a gyroscope to play with. Eventually they will come up with a reason that explains why the thing spins and moves the way it does. That explanation will most likely not involved a spinning globe and the law of inertia. That child will believe their explanation - until you do something unexpected with the gyroscope that contradicts their line of reasoning.
-
Stage magicians do this type of thing all the time. They have a good understanding of how human perception seems to work and they know how to distract their audiences while they manipulate objects in ways that defy the internalized rules we've created to explain how the physical universe behaves.
-
I can tie a string around the stem of a goblet and set it on the edge of a table. I can predict that when I pull the string the goblet will fall toward the floor and the string will arrest that movement before it actually hits the floor. I can explain that gravity is the "force" that causes the glass to move downward, but I can't show you gravity. I can only show you a bunch of objects that behave the same way. When I've got you convinced that all objects always fall to the lowest solid surface beneath them, I can show you a plane and you will never believe it will fly through the air until I start the engines and release the brakes, and the wheels leave the runway.
-
Believing in things we cannot verify with our physical senses is called faith. This is where physics leaves off and metaphysics begins. It is faith, believing in things that we cannot see or touch, that is the foundation upon which we organize religions and create dogmas. These are the theories that govern the worlds of metaphysics. When people live their lives in accord with these dogmas, we wind up with things like the Spanish inquisition and Jesuit priests persecuting people for publicly contradicting the Bishop of Rome who declared the world to be flat - until the the Jesuit priest Copernicus formulated the concept of the earth being a spherical object rotating around a central sun in heliocentric solar system. After a period of time this theory became the preferred theory and a different Pope codified a new doctrine that declared the earth is, indeed, round. And since it was round, it permitted more Jesuit priests to go out and spread the "gospel" and cast the net of spiritual and political control over indigenous populations in those new worlds that hadn't existed prior to the voyages of Columbus and Balboa and other explorers.
-
It was through propaganda that Hitler's minions convinced the German people to accept as an article of faith that Jews and Gypsies were an inferior form of life and not worth worrying about the fate they suffered. It is through propaganda and faith that fundamentalist Muslims and Christians are being convinced that war between the two sides is inevitable. Personally, I find the "keep an open mind" attitude of "flat earthers" to be more humane and preferable to that alternative.

No offense, but this world view is just a justification for ignorance. A person cannot reasonably have this view unless they disregard all the evidence, gained through meaningful experimentation, that our world is built upon. It serves no purpose other than to be obstinate or to act as a thought experiment.

Knowledge is progressive. Everything we know now is built on the foundation of things we learned before. We know these things to be true because they have proven to be true through repeated experimentation and the fact that we can use it to expand our knowledge further. You assert a premise that the foundation of our knowledge is wrong, yet you provide no evidence of it, nor an explanation for the phenomena that refutes that premise.

But I love arguing about it.

 

[Martian]

Martian

I am assuming you are using a spinning gyro mounted in gimbals that will allow the gyro to freely choose its own orientation.

I don't know if you are aware that as the earth spins, it will apply a torque to the gyro. Within a 24 hour period the gyro will align its spin axis with the spin axis of the earth. After that the gyro will be pointing toward the north star. This is the principle behind a gyro compass.

The idea of having a gyro in gimbals is to eliminate any torque caused by the earth's rotation. A gyro compass is not the same as a free spinning gyroscope, as the device itself is designed to exert a torque on the gyro in order to make it seek north. The following article describes both in detail:

Submarine Electrical Systems - Chapter 17

 

[Martian]

I knew I was going to regret posting on this thread...

@wyldberi It sounds like you're more interested in philosophy than science. In the real world, you don't have to understand atomic bonding or the cause of gravity to build a functioning wheel. You just do what you can with what you have, and gradually refine your view of reality, one experiment at a time. I offered an idea for one experiment to dispel doubt about a flat/spherical earth, and it really is simple and cheap enough to do yourself. If you're not an experimentalist, after all this talk of having to see things for yourself, I really have nothing else to say.

 

[Einstein]

Martian

The idea of having a gyro in gymbals is to eliminate any torque caused by the earth's rotation. A gyro compass is not the same as a free spinning gyroscope, as the device itself is designed to exert a torque on the gyro in order to make it seek north. The following article describes both in detail:

Submarine Electrical Systems - Chapter 17

I read through the article to see if there was anything in conflict with reality. I think it was written by a German. Which translates into 60 extra steps to get from point A to point B.

To begin with the gimbals wont eliminate torque from the earth's rotation. As long as that gyro has gravitational weight changing in direction due to the earth rotating, it will reorient itself with the spin axis of the earth. Now the article does say this. But not in an easy to understand manner.

This is easier to understand using a gyro. Hold a spinning gyro in your hand at arms length. Then just rotate the gyro about yourself. You will feel the gyro attempt to align itself with the spin axis you create. Any orientation other than parallel to your spin axis will create gyro torque. If you keep rotating the gyro will eventually align itself with your spin axis.

Now you are right in saying that with no torque applied the gyro will hold its orientation in space, and will forever point in one direction only. But that can't happen here on the earth as long as the gyro has gravitational weight. But a gyro in orbit where it is weightless will hold its orientation.

 

[Martian]

@Einstein It's really not a debate. It's been proven time and again by physicists, and they checked each other's work thoroughly. This is simple technology that has been in use a long time.

Here's a challenge: buy a gimballed gyro and run some tests. Tell us what you find out.

Btw, Germans are some of the best scientists & engineers on Earth.

 

[wyldberi]

I knew I was going to regret posting on this thread...

@wyldberi It sounds like you're more interested in philosophy than science. In the real world, you don't have to understand atomic bonding or the cause of gravity to build a functioning wheel. You just do what you can with what you have, and gradually refine your view of reality, one experiment at a time. I offered an idea for one experiment to dispel doubt about a flat/spherical earth, and it really is simple and cheap enough to do yourself. If you're not an experimentalist, after all this talk of having to see things for yourself, I really have nothing else to say.

That's fine. As the title/header of this thread mentions, I was primarily interested in hearing from people who ascribe to this theory. So far, Number7 came the closest, and he was merely open minded.

 

[1flipflop]

I not sure what I believe anymore but I did read everyones post and don't usually give feedback, one poster here left a wiki link and I found a quote in that article stating this is how the found the radius and circumference>>>Assuming that the Earth was spherical (360°), and that Alexandria was due north of Syene, he concluded that the meridian arcdistance from Alexandria to Syene must therefore be 1/50th of a circle's circumference, or 7°12'/360°. reading on from there got even more interesting about there were 3 errors in figuring out the actual calculation, 1 of the errors is they assume the earth to be a sphere ,,Lol look up crow777 youtube channel also this is a good u2b video of flat earth >>>

If earth is flat the coverup is easier to explain radius axis tilt spinning speed stuff that we comprehend like magic.. reality is god sent Jesus in his image for us to see,, our mind cannot comprehend gods true image, god created earth remember...maybe we can't comprehend earth true image so god also sent us NASA remember god created everything
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Any takers on this one?[/QUOTE]