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John Titor's Legacy
Did John Titor prevent the Y2K event?
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<blockquote data-quote="temporal recon" data-source="post: 69095" data-attributes="member: 2826"><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">No, Sam. I will not allow anyone to “rephrase” what I explicitly said. I will not “rephrase” it, but I will <em>restate</em> it:</span></span></p><p style="text-align: center"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">At no point, <em>ever</em>, did John Titor ever admit to changing our world line purposefully by “fixing” our Y2K problem for us. Nor did Titor ever admit to telling his Grandfather <em>anything</em> about his future or the future of the United States.</span></span></strong></p> <p style="text-align: center"></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">We may <em>infer </em>these things, which is a reasonable strategy in attempting to uncover the truth of the story and to test out hypotheses.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">But making inferences and then declaring conclusions based on inferences and (as you call it) allusions and “cryptic clues” is a recipe for disaster and tail-chasing. This is the very definition of “jumping to a conclusion” and is a large reason why so little headway has been made towards unraveling the Titor story (until COATT) for the past <strong><em><span style="color: #ff0000">13 </span></em></strong><strong><em><span style="color: #ff0000">years</span></em>.</strong></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">At this point, your declarations and conclusions that John saved us from Y2K are just as damaging to analysis as Darby and his hangers-on damages the analysis by trying to <em>debunk</em> the John Titor story.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">If you or anyone else is to learn the <em>actual truth </em>of the time travel question and the role that the John Titor posts play within the larger context, you <u>must</u> start with verifiable facts and base your conclusions on those facts. <em>Then </em>you can branch out to the fun, what if scenarios. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">I will fully admit that teasing out facts from this story is challenging, but not impossible. Likewise, if/when you make statements based on your <em>interpretation</em> of “cryptic clues” and John’s allusions, you must explicitly state that they are your <u>opinions</u> based on reasonable assumptions. I ask that you do this for <em>others</em> reading these posts at a later date. It is widely accepted that you are an authority on the Titor posts. Act like it. It's ok to say, "I don't know..." Nobody will think less of the Titor expert if she doesn't know everything about the topic. All they WILL see though is the Titor authoriy declaring the Titor fixed Y2K. You are doing a disservice to others by saying things like this.</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">An allusion is not an explicit and externally verifiable fact. He may have spoken <em>about </em>Y2K but he <strong><span style="color: #ff0000">never</span></strong> said he fixed it for us</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">If we are to believe that John spoke to his own grandfather, there are two possibilities: either <u>he did</u> or <u>he did not </u>tell his grandfather his own future. Either way, his interaction with his grandfather would have changed the grandfather’s future to varying and reasonably predictable ways.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">All things being equal, he likely only told his grandfather enough to obtain a 5100 (if even THAT part of the story is true). Again, this is only <em>informed opinion</em> on my part. It is definitely NOT based on anything John said in the posts. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Sam, you have made a similar argument before, which I asked you about, but you did not elaborate. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'"><em>Why were you specifically and personally involved in correcting the Y2K bug if Titor fixed it in 1975?</em> </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">According to your <u>theory</u>, you claim that Titor fixed the Y2K bug for us, or <em>caused</em> it to be fixed by informing his Grandfather about the issue, yet at the same time, you have stated that you were involved in the Y2K fix. How do you reconcile these two disparate statements? Is it possible that either one of these two possibilities is not true? You can personally attest through direct experience that you did assist in fixing the Y2K bug. So, if Titor’s grandfather or Titor himself fixed the bug, what exactly were you fixing then? I fail to understand how you are able to maintain this theory in light of your own direct experience.</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">This I can agree with. By merely being present on this world line, his interactions with everyone he met while here changed history in some way or another. But not every interaction will result in earth shattering changes to our history. For example, if John were to visit a restaurant and orders the last fish sandwhich, this means that there is one less fish filet than what “should” be available had he NOT appeared on this worldline and ordered the fish sandwhich. So, by his action, he causes <em>another</em> customer to go <em>without</em> a fish sandwhich because John ate the last one. Does this change history? Of course it does. Does it matter? Of course it doesn’t. One might ponder how these insignificant changes are measured, recorded, and determined to be consequential or not. <em>That</em> would be an interesting line of inquiry, which I am currently working on. </span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Again, please do not put words in my mouth. I do not "believe" that Titor was a Time Traveler; I <u>know</u> it. I come to this certainty through objective observation, reasoning and critical thinking which uncovered a mountain of evidence which led to my certainty. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'arial'">So, for the cheap seats: John Titor is/was/will be an actual time traveler. He is only one example of the technology's use (there are others). </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">To reiterate: I am merely stating (in my previous post to TT_00 and now) that over the last 13 years many out there have declared their opinions and theories as settled fact, which is NOT true. I merely ask that any statement not specifically supported by actual data to be identified as such (e.g. “I’m not sure, but I think…” or “Well, my opinion is…” or “My theory on x is that John….”) Your declarations that John solved Y2K for “us” (who’s us?) is overly simplistic and smacks of what I would expect from a Hollywood movie easily wrapped up in a 1 hour and 40 minute screenplay. <em>Real life</em> is much more complicated than you give it credit for.</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Here you provide excerpts from A Time Traveler’s Tale to bolster your theory. I commend you on providing this, though I would be <em>extremely </em>careful on what you consider an unimpeachable source of accurate information regarding the posts. Don’t you find it interesting that ATT used the Oliver Williams “version” of the posts to use for their book? Why? Has anyone asked this question before? Has anyone actually <u>compared</u> the Oliver Williams posts to what was <em>actually stated by John in 2000?</em></span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'arial'"><span style="color: white">I am glad you provided this statement by John. Let me ask the forum something:</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'arial'"><span style="color: white">In this very post (and I believe one other), John mentions that the war would be good for us. Or, that we would be “better off” with 3 billion <em>less</em></span><span style="color: white"> people on the Earth. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Has anyone who subscribes to the “John saved us from Y2K” theory bothered to wonder </span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">1) why John felt the war would be good for us (which implies death and suffering),</span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">2) why John felt that 3 billion less people would be a good thing, </span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">and yet, </span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Y2K just <em>had </em>to be stopped? </span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Are you saying that John made a judgment call in saying that the people in 2000 deserved to live, but those in 2015 do not? Considering John <em>is </em>a real time traveler, do you think as a professional, he would take it upon himself to make this judgment? Is there any statement he made that would argue <em>against </em>him making this who lives/who dies decision?</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'arial'"><em><strong><span style="color: white">Has nobody asked this question? </span></strong></em></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Frankly, after so much time (13 YEARS!) of so-called analysis of the Titor posts, I find it very difficult to take some of you seriously. I have to wonder, how far behind "schedule" are we for taking so long with this?</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">You <em>assume</em> he is talking about Y2K here. What <u>evidence </u>do you have of this?</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Why? WHY do you assume that he is talking about Y2K? He didn’t even mention it indirectly here. Though, credit where credit is due, you correctly label your beliefs here as your own.</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Same thing here. </span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">John’s statements were made <em>after </em>Y2K didn’t happen on this world line. How is it even <em>remotely </em>possible that our world line and his are “almost exactly alike” when something as devastating as Y2K did NOT happen here? </span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Just for argument's sake, let's pretend that Y2K did happen on this worldline and that "many" people "died on the highways trying to get to warmer weather" as the fax states. How many is "many?" </span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Again, just for argument's sake, let's say 1 million people. Are we to believe then that with the death of 1 <em>million </em>people, our history and his are still almost exactly the same? How many family trees were cut down by this event? Is John "alluding" here that the grand sum of 1 million people's life experiences matters so little as to have almost no impact on his history at all? How little do you think you contribute to history's future course? Do you really estimate your contribution (and that of others) so little?</span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Or, is it possible that John is being less than forthright? How do we know that Y2K happened on his world line? He never said that it didn't. We only have <u>unsigned</u> faxes to support this view.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Ultimately, you must ask yourself, what is more <em>likely?</em> That the lives of 1 million people don't matter a whit, or that John might not have been telling the whole truth?</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Sam, you have no <u>basis</u> for which to make a comparison except for the statements made by Titor and “K” who is purported to be his mother and who is purported to have written ATT. There is no independent information for any of these things. </span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">As I demonstrated above, John said no such thing, <em>ever.</em> What I expected you or TT_00 to say was that the <em>faxes</em> said Y2K happened on his world line. I would remind everyone reading these words that, while the faxes mirror some of the Titor posts, they were never signed by Titor. There is no evidence to show that they were written by the same man/men.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">That being said, I will <em>agree</em> that the faxes <u>likely</u> were written by the same man/men, it’s just that there is no <em>evidence</em> for it. So, I accept that this is a properly labeled assumption on my part and I am willing to throw that assumption out if/when new data comes available. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">It must be said that as long as we mislabel and misidentify our assumptions as conclusions, the truth will always elude us. </span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">This is exactly correct, Sam. Unfortunately, you yourself are unwittingly <em>contributing</em> to the misapprehensions of others by declaring your beliefs that John saved us from Y2K as conclusions. This is just as bad as Darby weakly debunking the Titor story with his own assumptions.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">I hold you and anyone that people turn to for answers to a higher standard. Your words have weight, Sam. Be careful with what you say and how you say it. I am apt to believe your influence is stronger than you believe.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">As Ever</span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Temporal Recon</span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="temporal recon, post: 69095, member: 2826"] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]No, Sam. I will not allow anyone to “rephrase” what I explicitly said. I will not “rephrase” it, but I will [I]restate[/I] it:[/FONT][/COLOR] [CENTER][B][COLOR=#ff0000][FONT=arial]At no point, [I]ever[/I], did John Titor ever admit to changing our world line purposefully by “fixing” our Y2K problem for us. Nor did Titor ever admit to telling his Grandfather [I]anything[/I] about his future or the future of the United States.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][/CENTER] [CENTER] [/CENTER] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]We may [I]infer [/I]these things, which is a reasonable strategy in attempting to uncover the truth of the story and to test out hypotheses.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]But making inferences and then declaring conclusions based on inferences and (as you call it) allusions and “cryptic clues” is a recipe for disaster and tail-chasing. This is the very definition of “jumping to a conclusion” and is a large reason why so little headway has been made towards unraveling the Titor story (until COATT) for the past [B][I][COLOR=#ff0000]13 [/COLOR][/I][/B][B][I][COLOR=#ff0000]years[/COLOR][/I].[/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]At this point, your declarations and conclusions that John saved us from Y2K are just as damaging to analysis as Darby and his hangers-on damages the analysis by trying to [I]debunk[/I] the John Titor story.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]If you or anyone else is to learn the [I]actual truth [/I]of the time travel question and the role that the John Titor posts play within the larger context, you [U]must[/U] start with verifiable facts and base your conclusions on those facts. [I]Then [/I]you can branch out to the fun, what if scenarios. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]I will fully admit that teasing out facts from this story is challenging, but not impossible. Likewise, if/when you make statements based on your [I]interpretation[/I] of “cryptic clues” and John’s allusions, you must explicitly state that they are your [U]opinions[/U] based on reasonable assumptions. I ask that you do this for [I]others[/I] reading these posts at a later date. It is widely accepted that you are an authority on the Titor posts. Act like it. It's ok to say, "I don't know..." Nobody will think less of the Titor expert if she doesn't know everything about the topic. All they WILL see though is the Titor authoriy declaring the Titor fixed Y2K. You are doing a disservice to others by saying things like this.[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]An allusion is not an explicit and externally verifiable fact. He may have spoken [I]about [/I]Y2K but he [B][COLOR=#ff0000]never[/COLOR][/B] said he fixed it for us[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]If we are to believe that John spoke to his own grandfather, there are two possibilities: either [U]he did[/U] or [U]he did not [/U]tell his grandfather his own future. Either way, his interaction with his grandfather would have changed the grandfather’s future to varying and reasonably predictable ways.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]All things being equal, he likely only told his grandfather enough to obtain a 5100 (if even THAT part of the story is true). Again, this is only [I]informed opinion[/I] on my part. It is definitely NOT based on anything John said in the posts. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Sam, you have made a similar argument before, which I asked you about, but you did not elaborate. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial][I]Why were you specifically and personally involved in correcting the Y2K bug if Titor fixed it in 1975?[/I] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]According to your [U]theory[/U], you claim that Titor fixed the Y2K bug for us, or [I]caused[/I] it to be fixed by informing his Grandfather about the issue, yet at the same time, you have stated that you were involved in the Y2K fix. How do you reconcile these two disparate statements? Is it possible that either one of these two possibilities is not true? You can personally attest through direct experience that you did assist in fixing the Y2K bug. So, if Titor’s grandfather or Titor himself fixed the bug, what exactly were you fixing then? I fail to understand how you are able to maintain this theory in light of your own direct experience.[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]This I can agree with. By merely being present on this world line, his interactions with everyone he met while here changed history in some way or another. But not every interaction will result in earth shattering changes to our history. For example, if John were to visit a restaurant and orders the last fish sandwhich, this means that there is one less fish filet than what “should” be available had he NOT appeared on this worldline and ordered the fish sandwhich. So, by his action, he causes [I]another[/I] customer to go [I]without[/I] a fish sandwhich because John ate the last one. Does this change history? Of course it does. Does it matter? Of course it doesn’t. One might ponder how these insignificant changes are measured, recorded, and determined to be consequential or not. [I]That[/I] would be an interesting line of inquiry, which I am currently working on. [/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=arial]Again, please do not put words in my mouth. I do not "believe" that Titor was a Time Traveler; I [U]know[/U] it. I come to this certainty through objective observation, reasoning and critical thinking which uncovered a mountain of evidence which led to my certainty. [/FONT] [FONT=arial]So, for the cheap seats: John Titor is/was/will be an actual time traveler. He is only one example of the technology's use (there are others). [/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]To reiterate: I am merely stating (in my previous post to TT_00 and now) that over the last 13 years many out there have declared their opinions and theories as settled fact, which is NOT true. I merely ask that any statement not specifically supported by actual data to be identified as such (e.g. “I’m not sure, but I think…” or “Well, my opinion is…” or “My theory on x is that John….”) Your declarations that John solved Y2K for “us” (who’s us?) is overly simplistic and smacks of what I would expect from a Hollywood movie easily wrapped up in a 1 hour and 40 minute screenplay. [I]Real life[/I] is much more complicated than you give it credit for.[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Here you provide excerpts from A Time Traveler’s Tale to bolster your theory. I commend you on providing this, though I would be [I]extremely [/I]careful on what you consider an unimpeachable source of accurate information regarding the posts. Don’t you find it interesting that ATT used the Oliver Williams “version” of the posts to use for their book? Why? Has anyone asked this question before? Has anyone actually [U]compared[/U] the Oliver Williams posts to what was [I]actually stated by John in 2000?[/I][/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white]I am glad you provided this statement by John. Let me ask the forum something:[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white]In this very post (and I believe one other), John mentions that the war would be good for us. Or, that we would be “better off” with 3 billion [I]less[/I][/COLOR][COLOR=white] people on the Earth. [/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Has anyone who subscribes to the “John saved us from Y2K” theory bothered to wonder [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]1) why John felt the war would be good for us (which implies death and suffering),[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]2) why John felt that 3 billion less people would be a good thing, [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]and yet, [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Y2K just [I]had [/I]to be stopped? [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Are you saying that John made a judgment call in saying that the people in 2000 deserved to live, but those in 2015 do not? Considering John [I]is [/I]a real time traveler, do you think as a professional, he would take it upon himself to make this judgment? Is there any statement he made that would argue [I]against [/I]him making this who lives/who dies decision?[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][I][B][COLOR=white]Has nobody asked this question? [/COLOR][/B][/I][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Frankly, after so much time (13 YEARS!) of so-called analysis of the Titor posts, I find it very difficult to take some of you seriously. I have to wonder, how far behind "schedule" are we for taking so long with this?[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]You [I]assume[/I] he is talking about Y2K here. What [U]evidence [/U]do you have of this?[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Why? WHY do you assume that he is talking about Y2K? He didn’t even mention it indirectly here. Though, credit where credit is due, you correctly label your beliefs here as your own.[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Same thing here. [/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]John’s statements were made [I]after [/I]Y2K didn’t happen on this world line. How is it even [I]remotely [/I]possible that our world line and his are “almost exactly alike” when something as devastating as Y2K did NOT happen here? [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Just for argument's sake, let's pretend that Y2K did happen on this worldline and that "many" people "died on the highways trying to get to warmer weather" as the fax states. How many is "many?" [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Again, just for argument's sake, let's say 1 million people. Are we to believe then that with the death of 1 [I]million [/I]people, our history and his are still almost exactly the same? How many family trees were cut down by this event? Is John "alluding" here that the grand sum of 1 million people's life experiences matters so little as to have almost no impact on his history at all? How little do you think you contribute to history's future course? Do you really estimate your contribution (and that of others) so little?[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Or, is it possible that John is being less than forthright? How do we know that Y2K happened on his world line? He never said that it didn't. We only have [U]unsigned[/U] faxes to support this view.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Ultimately, you must ask yourself, what is more [I]likely?[/I] That the lives of 1 million people don't matter a whit, or that John might not have been telling the whole truth?[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Sam, you have no [U]basis[/U] for which to make a comparison except for the statements made by Titor and “K” who is purported to be his mother and who is purported to have written ATT. There is no independent information for any of these things. [/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]As I demonstrated above, John said no such thing, [I]ever.[/I] What I expected you or TT_00 to say was that the [I]faxes[/I] said Y2K happened on his world line. I would remind everyone reading these words that, while the faxes mirror some of the Titor posts, they were never signed by Titor. There is no evidence to show that they were written by the same man/men.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]That being said, I will [I]agree[/I] that the faxes [U]likely[/U] were written by the same man/men, it’s just that there is no [I]evidence[/I] for it. So, I accept that this is a properly labeled assumption on my part and I am willing to throw that assumption out if/when new data comes available. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]It must be said that as long as we mislabel and misidentify our assumptions as conclusions, the truth will always elude us. [/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]This is exactly correct, Sam. Unfortunately, you yourself are unwittingly [I]contributing[/I] to the misapprehensions of others by declaring your beliefs that John saved us from Y2K as conclusions. This is just as bad as Darby weakly debunking the Titor story with his own assumptions.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]I hold you and anyone that people turn to for answers to a higher standard. Your words have weight, Sam. Be careful with what you say and how you say it. I am apt to believe your influence is stronger than you believe.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]As Ever[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=arial]Temporal Recon[/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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Did John Titor prevent the Y2K event?
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