Debate Did John Titor prevent the Y2K event?

TimeTravel_00

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Temporal recon, it is possible that JT's predictions failed due to his intervention in our timeline due to the absence of the Y2K tragedy, or the timeline divergence caused by the inaccuracy of the base model C204.
 
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Temporal recon, it is possible that JT's predictions failed due to his intervention in our timeline due to the absence of the Y2K tragedy, or the timeline divergence caused by the inaccuracy of the base model C204.
Hello TT_00, sorry for the delay, a lot seems to be going on at the moment.

First of all, I am extremely impressed that you do not take for granted that the C204 is a perfect machine. I recommend you continue to question the Conventional Wisdom.

As for your theory that his "predictions" failed due to his intervention in our worldline, we should be extremely careful in our assumptions. At no point, ever, did John admit to any intervention or "fixing" of Y2K, ever. Furthermore, he never claimed to change any of our histories. The idea that Titor fixed Y2K is a convenient theory that has no foundation or evidence that supports it. So, the premise of this question/theory is not supported. This premise is understandable though because it gets bandied about as a viable theory (which it is) and eventually, once this theory gets repeated often enough, the details of where it came from becomes clouded and lost and eventually becomes accepted dogma/Conventional Wisdom.

I'm curious, why do you assume that Y2K happened on his worldline? ...again, be careful of your assumptions on where you derive this idea.

And to answer your theory less obtusely, no, his "predictions" did not fail due to any perceived action by him or other TT'ers (yes, there are others).

As Ever
TR
 

Samstwitch

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At no point, ever, did John admit to any intervention or "fixing" of Y2K, ever. Furthermore, he never claimed to change any of our histories...
Let us rephrase that. John alluded to the idea that he changed the outcome of Y2K on our Timeline...for whatever reasons, his presence here, his interactions with his grandfather, the information he gave him...all of that caused Y2K not to happen...and in that sense John 'fixed' Y2k.

If John Titor was a real Time Traveler (and I believe he was) then his presence and interaction here certainly did change our history, and he alluded to it several times.

As you have already stated, you do not believe these things...and I will not try to convince you of anything regarding John Titor as you are already familiar with his writings. On that note, we must agree to disagree and leave it at that.

However, I'm posting the information below for other Members, to confirm what I'm saying. John left many CRYPTIC CLUES about many things. I believe what I have listed below are Cryptic Clues that elude to the idea that he changed events on our World Line; he changed our histories, he changed the outcome of Y2K.


BELOW: Referencing John's Internet Posts in the book published by his mother: John Titor: A Time Traveler's Tale

1) PAGE 91

Q: Why do you keep telling us about the war? How do you know that will even happen in our world line? Something may have already changed and it won't happen.

JOHN TITOR: Yes, you are correct! However, I am not confident things are different enough for you to avoid the conflict. You may also consider the possibility that a world with no war is far less desirable in the long run...

2) PAGE 83

JOHN TITOR: [Excerpt] Would I be any more believable if I told you I had just stopped a horrible event and you won't hear about it because it didn't happen?

3) PAGES 140-141

(John is answering questions from posters and talks a lot about scenarios where the past could be changed. He uses Pearl Harbor as an example. Too much here to type out in this Comment, but here's an excerpt.)

JOHN TITOR: [Excerpt] I don't want the responsibility of being expected to know who lives and who dies. I know it would change me for the worse. Besides, how can you be sure my "inaction" now isn't a result of something I've already screwed up and I'm trying to fix it?

Personally, I think John is referring to Y2K and the aftermath that follow on his World Line, i.e., the Presidential elections (I think there may have been an uprising over the fraudulent elections when Bush took the White House) and/or whatever else, which eventually led to a Civil War on his World Line. But no Y2K or uprising happened on our World Line...and I believe it all changed, because of John's presence and interactions here. I think the whole changing-of-events scared the crap out of him...and I think that was part of the reason (a secondary reason) of why he posted information online and interacted with people.

4) PAGE 77

JOHN TITOR: Yes, the Pearl Harbor example relates to Y2K. Have you considered that I might already have accidentally screwed up your world line?

5) PAGE 56

Q: How do you know our world line and yours follow the same path?

JOHN TITOR: This world line and my own are almost exactly alike.

NOTE FROM JOHN'S MOTHER: John is not being entirely truthful here. As more time went by after Y2K did not happen and the Presidential election, John believed our world line would be very different from his. This did not give him any comfort. He appeared to be more afraid of our future than what would happen as the result of another world war.

My Note: John was only being half truthful. His World Line and ours were "almost exactly alike" before he got here. But his presence here caused serious changes.


I'm curious, why do you assume that Y2K happened on his worldline?
Because John said so several times, but I don't have time to post more references. They are available at JohnTitor.com


IT BOILS DOWN TO...Each person must weigh the information and come to their own conclusion. Most people don't have the correct information and go by hearsay rather than doing the actual research and familiarizing themselves with the actual writings of John.

My comments above are some of what I have come to believe based on John's writings. I will not debate the matter, but I will share the information for those who are interested. :)
 
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Let us rephrase that.
No, Sam. I will not allow anyone to “rephrase” what I explicitly said. I will not “rephrase” it, but I will restate it:
At no point, ever, did John Titor ever admit to changing our world line purposefully by “fixing” our Y2K problem for us. Nor did Titor ever admit to telling his Grandfather anything about his future or the future of the United States.
We may infer these things, which is a reasonable strategy in attempting to uncover the truth of the story and to test out hypotheses.

But making inferences and then declaring conclusions based on inferences and (as you call it) allusions and “cryptic clues” is a recipe for disaster and tail-chasing. This is the very definition of “jumping to a conclusion” and is a large reason why so little headway has been made towards unraveling the Titor story (until COATT) for the past 13 years.

At this point, your declarations and conclusions that John saved us from Y2K are just as damaging to analysis as Darby and his hangers-on damages the analysis by trying to debunk the John Titor story.

If you or anyone else is to learn the actual truth of the time travel question and the role that the John Titor posts play within the larger context, you must start with verifiable facts and base your conclusions on those facts. Then you can branch out to the fun, what if scenarios.

I will fully admit that teasing out facts from this story is challenging, but not impossible. Likewise, if/when you make statements based on your interpretation of “cryptic clues” and John’s allusions, you must explicitly state that they are your opinions based on reasonable assumptions. I ask that you do this for others reading these posts at a later date. It is widely accepted that you are an authority on the Titor posts. Act like it. It's ok to say, "I don't know..." Nobody will think less of the Titor expert if she doesn't know everything about the topic. All they WILL see though is the Titor authoriy declaring the Titor fixed Y2K. You are doing a disservice to others by saying things like this.

John alluded to the idea that he changed the outcome of Y2K on our Timeline
An allusion is not an explicit and externally verifiable fact. He may have spoken about Y2K but he never said he fixed it for us

...for whatever reasons, his presence here, his interactions with his grandfather, the information he gave him...all of that caused Y2K not to happen...and in that sense John 'fixed' Y2k.
If we are to believe that John spoke to his own grandfather, there are two possibilities: either he did or he did not tell his grandfather his own future. Either way, his interaction with his grandfather would have changed the grandfather’s future to varying and reasonably predictable ways.
All things being equal, he likely only told his grandfather enough to obtain a 5100 (if even THAT part of the story is true). Again, this is only informed opinion on my part. It is definitely NOT based on anything John said in the posts.

Sam, you have made a similar argument before, which I asked you about, but you did not elaborate.
Why were you specifically and personally involved in correcting the Y2K bug if Titor fixed it in 1975?

According to your theory, you claim that Titor fixed the Y2K bug for us, or caused it to be fixed by informing his Grandfather about the issue, yet at the same time, you have stated that you were involved in the Y2K fix. How do you reconcile these two disparate statements? Is it possible that either one of these two possibilities is not true? You can personally attest through direct experience that you did assist in fixing the Y2K bug. So, if Titor’s grandfather or Titor himself fixed the bug, what exactly were you fixing then? I fail to understand how you are able to maintain this theory in light of your own direct experience.

If John Titor was a real Time Traveler (and I believe he was) then his presence and interaction here certainly did change our history, and he alluded to it several times.
This I can agree with. By merely being present on this world line, his interactions with everyone he met while here changed history in some way or another. But not every interaction will result in earth shattering changes to our history. For example, if John were to visit a restaurant and orders the last fish sandwhich, this means that there is one less fish filet than what “should” be available had he NOT appeared on this worldline and ordered the fish sandwhich. So, by his action, he causes another customer to go without a fish sandwhich because John ate the last one. Does this change history? Of course it does. Does it matter? Of course it doesn’t. One might ponder how these insignificant changes are measured, recorded, and determined to be consequential or not. That would be an interesting line of inquiry, which I am currently working on.

As you have already stated, you do not believe these things...and I will not try to convince you of anything regarding John Titor as you are already familiar with his writings. On that note, we must agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Again, please do not put words in my mouth. I do not "believe" that Titor was a Time Traveler; I know it. I come to this certainty through objective observation, reasoning and critical thinking which uncovered a mountain of evidence which led to my certainty.
So, for the cheap seats: John Titor is/was/will be an actual time traveler. He is only one example of the technology's use (there are others).

To reiterate: I am merely stating (in my previous post to TT_00 and now) that over the last 13 years many out there have declared their opinions and theories as settled fact, which is NOT true. I merely ask that any statement not specifically supported by actual data to be identified as such (e.g. “I’m not sure, but I think…” or “Well, my opinion is…” or “My theory on x is that John….”) Your declarations that John solved Y2K for “us” (who’s us?) is overly simplistic and smacks of what I would expect from a Hollywood movie easily wrapped up in a 1 hour and 40 minute screenplay. Real life is much more complicated than you give it credit for.


BELOW: Referencing John's Internet Posts in the book published by his mother: John Titor: A Time Traveler's Tale….
Here you provide excerpts from A Time Traveler’s Tale to bolster your theory. I commend you on providing this, though I would be extremely careful on what you consider an unimpeachable source of accurate information regarding the posts. Don’t you find it interesting that ATT used the Oliver Williams “version” of the posts to use for their book? Why? Has anyone asked this question before? Has anyone actually compared the Oliver Williams posts to what was actually stated by John in 2000?


JOHN TITOR: Yes, you are correct! However, I am not confident things are different enough for you to avoid the conflict. You may also consider the possibility that a world with no war is far less desirable in the long run...
I am glad you provided this statement by John. Let me ask the forum something:

In this very post (and I believe one other), John mentions that the war would be good for us. Or, that we would be “better off” with 3 billion less people on the Earth.

Has anyone who subscribes to the “John saved us from Y2K” theory bothered to wonder
1) why John felt the war would be good for us (which implies death and suffering),
2) why John felt that 3 billion less people would be a good thing,
and yet,
Y2K just had to be stopped?
Are you saying that John made a judgment call in saying that the people in 2000 deserved to live, but those in 2015 do not? Considering John is a real time traveler, do you think as a professional, he would take it upon himself to make this judgment? Is there any statement he made that would argue against him making this who lives/who dies decision?

Has nobody asked this question?

Frankly, after so much time (13 YEARS!) of so-called analysis of the Titor posts, I find it very difficult to take some of you seriously. I have to wonder, how far behind "schedule" are we for taking so long with this?

JOHN TITOR: [Excerpt] Would I be any more believable if I told you I had just stopped a horrible event and you won't hear about it because it didn't happen?
You assume he is talking about Y2K here. What evidence do you have of this?

JOHN TITOR: [Excerpt] I don't want the responsibility of being expected to know who lives and who dies. I know it would change me for the worse. Besides, how can you be sure my "inaction" now isn't a result of something I've already screwed up and I'm trying to fix it?

Personally, I think John is referring to Y2K and the aftermath that follow on his World Line, i.e., the Presidential elections (I think there may have been an uprising over the fraudulent elections when Bush took the White House) and/or whatever else, which eventually led to a Civil War on his World Line. But no Y2K or uprising happened on our World Line...and I believe it all changed, because of John's presence and interactions here. I think the whole changing-of-events scared the crap out of him...and I think that was part of the reason (a secondary reason) of why he posted information online and interacted with people.
Why? WHY do you assume that he is talking about Y2K? He didn’t even mention it indirectly here. Though, credit where credit is due, you correctly label your beliefs here as your own.

JOHN TITOR: Yes, the Pearl Harbor example relates to Y2K. Have you considered that I might already have accidentally screwed up your world line?
Same thing here.

JOHN TITOR: This world line and my own are almost exactly alike.
John’s statements were made after Y2K didn’t happen on this world line. How is it even remotely possible that our world line and his are “almost exactly alike” when something as devastating as Y2K did NOT happen here?
Just for argument's sake, let's pretend that Y2K did happen on this worldline and that "many" people "died on the highways trying to get to warmer weather" as the fax states. How many is "many?"
Again, just for argument's sake, let's say 1 million people. Are we to believe then that with the death of 1 million people, our history and his are still almost exactly the same? How many family trees were cut down by this event? Is John "alluding" here that the grand sum of 1 million people's life experiences matters so little as to have almost no impact on his history at all? How little do you think you contribute to history's future course? Do you really estimate your contribution (and that of others) so little?
Or, is it possible that John is being less than forthright? How do we know that Y2K happened on his world line? He never said that it didn't. We only have unsigned faxes to support this view.
Ultimately, you must ask yourself, what is more likely? That the lives of 1 million people don't matter a whit, or that John might not have been telling the whole truth?

NOTE FROM JOHN'S MOTHER: John is not being entirely truthful here. As more time went by after Y2K did not happen and the Presidential election, John believed our world line would be very different from his. This did not give him any comfort. He appeared to be more afraid of our future than what would happen as the result of another world war.

My Note: John was only being half truthful. His World Line and ours were "almost exactly alike" before he got here. But his presence here caused serious changes.
Sam, you have no basis for which to make a comparison except for the statements made by Titor and “K” who is purported to be his mother and who is purported to have written ATT. There is no independent information for any of these things.

I'm curious, why do you assume that Y2K happened on his worldline?

Because John said so several times, but I don't have time to post more references. They are available at JohnTitor.com
As I demonstrated above, John said no such thing, ever. What I expected you or TT_00 to say was that the faxes said Y2K happened on his world line. I would remind everyone reading these words that, while the faxes mirror some of the Titor posts, they were never signed by Titor. There is no evidence to show that they were written by the same man/men.
That being said, I will agree that the faxes likely were written by the same man/men, it’s just that there is no evidence for it. So, I accept that this is a properly labeled assumption on my part and I am willing to throw that assumption out if/when new data comes available.

It must be said that as long as we mislabel and misidentify our assumptions as conclusions, the truth will always elude us.

IT BOILS DOWN TO...Each person must weigh the information and come to their own conclusion. Most people don't have the correct information and go by hearsay rather than doing the actual research and familiarizing themselves with the actual writings of John.
This is exactly correct, Sam. Unfortunately, you yourself are unwittingly contributing to the misapprehensions of others by declaring your beliefs that John saved us from Y2K as conclusions. This is just as bad as Darby weakly debunking the Titor story with his own assumptions.

I hold you and anyone that people turn to for answers to a higher standard. Your words have weight, Sam. Be careful with what you say and how you say it. I am apt to believe your influence is stronger than you believe.

As Ever
Temporal Recon
 

Samstwitch

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As you have already stated, you do not believe these things...and I will not try to convince you of anything regarding John Titor as you are already familiar with his writings. On that note, we must agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Again, please do not put words in my mouth...
To be clear, I was not putting words in your mouth. You said in your post: "At no point, ever, did John admit to any intervention or "fixing" of Y2K, ever. Furthermore, he never claimed to change any of our histories. The idea that Titor fixed Y2K is a convenient theory that has no foundation or evidence that supports it..." that statement is what I was referring to.

TR, you and I do not agree on many things regarding John Titor. As I said before, I will not Debate or argue my opinions with you. Likewise, I will not beat my head against a brick wall either.

You demand answers to innumerable questions...but you have never answered questions that I have asked of you. (I will not elaborate further here, as I already have in previous discussions.)

Likewise, if/when you make statements based on your interpretation of “cryptic clues” and John’s allusions, you must explicitly state that they are your opinions based on reasonable assumptions. I ask that you do this for others reading these posts at a later date.
As I said in my previous post..."My comments above are some of what I have come to believe based on John's writings. [Aka, that means In My Opinion, IMO.] I will not debate the matter, but I will share the information for those who are interested."


It is widely accepted that you are an authority on the Titor posts. Act like it. It's ok to say, "I don't know..." Nobody will think less of the Titor expert if she doesn't know everything about the topic. All they WILL see though is the Titor authoriy declaring the Titor fixed Y2K. You are doing a disservice to others by saying things like this.
You write as if you are the authority above all. You are not. You write to me in a condescending tone. Please be respectful in your posts.

To readers interested in learning more about John Titor, some answers may be found in my posts on this thread: I Am An Expert On John Titor. Feel Free To Engage Me In Conversation | Paranormalis
 
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I will not Debate or argue my opinions with you.
I am not debating your opinions, Sam. I am stating, unequivocally, that you are conflating conclusions with opinions.
This is to the detriment of newcomers to the story who are attempting to figure out just who this John Titor fellow was and if he was real.

You demand answers to innumerable questions...but you have never answered questions that I have asked of you. (I will not elaborate further here, as I already have in previous discussions.)
No Sam. I have asked no questions of you or this forum that would further my understanding of the John Titor story. Frankly, and I mean this with all due respect to you as someone who is also in search of truth:
you cannot help me.

There is more to the Time Travel question than the posts of John Titor. The Titor posts are a good starting point for the larger questions, but not a destination in and of themselves.

The only questions I have ever made in this forum is essentially:
"What is taking so long?"


To be clear, I am not attacking you, Sam. Your search for the truth is admirable. I am merely pointing out that there are still newcomers to this story who are trying to determine if John Titor was real or not. You underestimate your influence as a "Titor Expert." People look to you for wisdom and knowledge. Be judicious in your statements and tedious with the facts . If you continue to mix up your opinions and interpretations with what was actually stated, you unwittingly muddy the waters for new inquiry. How many people will die of starvation because Darby convinced them that Titor was a hoax? His irresponsible statements have doomed those poor folks to death. Don't make the same mistake. Your statements carry weight. Remember this.

As Ever
Temporal Recon
 

Samstwitch

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I am not debating your opinions, Sam. I am stating, unequivocally, that you are conflating conclusions with opinions.
This is to the detriment of newcomers to the story who are attempting to figure out just who this John Titor fellow was and if he was real.
That is your opinion, which you are entitled to. I am also entitled to my opinion, and we are NOT in agreement on many things related to John Titor.

You demand answers to innumerable questions...but you have never answered questions that I have asked of you. (I will not elaborate further here, as I already have in previous discussions.)
No Sam. I have asked no questions of you or this forum that would further my understanding of the John Titor story...
Excuse me...in your Post #43 above, you asked me numerous questions! I never accused you of asking questions to "further" your understanding of the John Titor story. I said:

You demand answers to innumerable questions...but you have never answered questions that I have asked of you. (I will not elaborate further here, as I already have in previous discussions.)


You asked me "innumerable" questions in Post #43 (and on other threads and in Emails regarding John Titor). Now you are posting MISINFORMATION by twisting my words.

You underestimate your influence as a "Titor Expert." People look to you for wisdom and knowledge. Be judicious in your statements and tedious with the facts...
If you continue to mix up your opinions and interpretations with what was actually stated, you unwittingly muddy the waters for new inquiry.
Once again...You write as if you are the authority above all. You are not.

As I said in my previous posts..."My comments above are some of what I have come to believe based on John's writings." I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION.


If you continue to mix up your opinions and interpretations with what was actually stated, you unwittingly muddy the waters for new inquiry.
I do NOT mix up my opinions and interpretations with what was "actually stated" by John Titor. I always post his exact "quotes" and then give my own opinions.

How many people will die of starvation because Darby convinced them that Titor was a hoax? His irresponsible statements have doomed those poor folks to death. Don't make the same mistake. Your statements carry weight. Remember this.
Incredible accusations...that my postings could doom people to die of starvation in the future! :rolleyes:

It appears that you are trying to discredit me. Your posts are borderlining on personal attacks.
 
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You asked me "innumerable" questions in Post #43 (and on other threads and in Emails regarding John Titor). Now you are posting MISINFORMATION by twisting my words.
My apologies, Sam. You are correct in stating that I did in fact end numerous sentences above with question marks. Yes, these are questions, but they were meant in a rhetorical sense in the hopes of elevating the level of discourse, to inspire those reading here now and later to possibly change the paradigm in which they place the Titor posts. I will be more careful next time. At no point did I expect you to actually answer questions such as:

-Why were you specifically and personally involved in correcting the Y2K bug if Titor fixed it in 1975?

-How do you reconcile these two disparate statements?

-Is it possible that either one of these two possibilities is not true?

-Does this change history?

-Does it matter?

-Has anyone actually compared the Oliver Williams posts to what was actually stated by John in 2000?

-Don’t you find it interesting that ATT used the Oliver Williams “version” of the posts to use for their book?

-Has anyone asked this question before?

-Y2K just had to be stopped?

-Are you saying that John made a judgment call in saying that the people in 2000 deserved to live, but those in 2015 do not?

-Considering John is a real time traveler, do you think as a professional, he would take it upon himself to make this judgment?

-Is there any statement he made that would argue against him making this who lives/who dies decision?

-Has nobody asked this question?

-I have to wonder, how far behind "schedule" are we for taking so long with this?

-What evidence do you have of this? (this may sound like I'm asking you for information, but I'm not. I understand that this is your opinion, I am merely illustrating here (rhetorically) that you are concluding this based on opinion and not an explicit statement by JT.)

-How is it even remotely possible that our world line and his are “almost exactly alike” when something as devastating as Y2K did NOT happen here?

-Are we to believe then that with the death of 1 million people, our history and his are still almost exactly the same?

-How many family trees were cut down by this event?

-Is John "alluding" here that the grand sum of 1 million people's life experiences matters so little as to have almost no impact on his history at all?

-How little do you think you contribute to history's future course?

-Do you really estimate your contribution (and that of others) so little?

-Or, is it possible that John is being less than forthright?

-How do we know that Y2K happened on his world line?

-Ultimately, you must ask yourself, what is more likely? That the lives of 1 million people don't matter a whit, or that John might not have been telling the whole truth?
The vast majority of the above questions were not meant for you personally, Sam. They were meant for the forum as a whole to get people to change their frame of reference regarding the Titor statements made in 2000-2001. How could I possibly expect you to know these answers? Again, they were rhetorical.

Once again...You write as if you are the authority above all. You are not.
There is only one person in this conversation who has identified themselves as a Titor expert, Sam.

In a recent interview I did (full transcript available at Conviction of a Time Traveler ) I state that my own inquiries into the Titor story (and beyond) have been nothing but a constant realization and reassessment of what I thought I knew. I am no expert, Sam; far from it.

I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION.
Of course you are, Sam. I would never try to convince you otherwise. My only small request would be that, as your standing as a Titor Expert on this forum, that you might identify your opinions as such. That's all.

How many people will die of starvation because Darby convinced them that Titor was a hoax? His irresponsible statements have doomed those poor folks to death. Don't make the same mistake. Your statements carry weight. Remember this.
Incredible accusations...that my postings could doom people to die of starvation in the future! :rolleyes:
Incredible indeed, but that's not exactly what I meant. How could I predict what your statements might do? I was merely drawing a parallel between the irresponsible statements by Darby over the last 13 years (you don't really think he thinks Titor is a hoax, do you?) and the likely damage his statements have done to your own statements and the possible (though unpredictable) results of your own statements.

It appears that you are trying to discredit me. Your posts are borderlining on personal attacks.
No Sam. I hold you in the highest regard. If my requests for factual rigidity are perceived as attacks, I apologize. They are not meant to be so.

As Ever
Temporal Recon
 

Samstwitch

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I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION.
My only small request would be that, as your standing as a Titor Expert on this forum, that you might identify your opinions as such. That's all.

I have done that over, and over, and over again...and you harangued me about my opinions. The evidence is in our previous Posts.

How many people will die of starvation because Darby convinced them that Titor was a hoax? His irresponsible statements have doomed those poor folks to death. Don't make the same mistake. Your statements carry weight. Remember this.
Incredible accusations...that my postings could doom people to die of starvation in the future! :rolleyes:
That's not exactly what I meant. How could I predict what your statements might do? I was merely drawing a parallel between the irresponsible statements by Darby over the last 13 years (you don't really think he thinks Titor is a hoax, do you?) and the likely damage his statements have done to your own statements and the possible (though unpredictable) results of your own statements.

In your previous Post #47, you backtracked the numerous accusations that you made earlier about me, but you made them none the less. It sounds like you are in denial rather than apologizing.

If you want to state your opinions regarding what you think about John Titor, then do so without rendering attacks on me and my opinions.
 

Num7

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No, Sam. I will not allow anyone to “rephrase” what I explicitly said. I will not “rephrase” it, but I will restate it:
At no point, ever, did John Titor ever admit to changing our world line purposefully by “fixing” our Y2K problem for us. Nor did Titor ever admit to telling his Grandfather anything about his future or the future of the United States.
We may infer these things, which is a reasonable strategy in attempting to uncover the truth of the story and to test out hypotheses.

But making inferences and then declaring conclusions based on inferences and (as you call it) allusions and “cryptic clues” is a recipe for disaster and tail-chasing. This is the very definition of “jumping to a conclusion” and is a large reason why so little headway has been made towards unraveling the Titor story (until COATT) for the past 13 years.

At this point, your declarations and conclusions that John saved us from Y2K are just as damaging to analysis as Darby and his hangers-on damages the analysis by trying to debunk the John Titor story.

If you or anyone else is to learn the actual truth of the time travel question and the role that the John Titor posts play within the larger context, you must start with verifiable facts and base your conclusions on those facts. Then you can branch out to the fun, what if scenarios.

I will fully admit that teasing out facts from this story is challenging, but not impossible. Likewise, if/when you make statements based on your interpretation of “cryptic clues” and John’s allusions, you must explicitly state that they are your opinions based on reasonable assumptions. I ask that you do this for others reading these posts at a later date. It is widely accepted that you are an authority on the Titor posts. Act like it. It's ok to say, "I don't know..." Nobody will think less of the Titor expert if she doesn't know everything about the topic. All they WILL see though is the Titor authoriy declaring the Titor fixed Y2K. You are doing a disservice to others by saying things like this.
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This is exactly correct, Sam. Unfortunately, you yourself are unwittingly contributing to the misapprehensions of others by declaring your beliefs that John saved us from Y2K as conclusions. This is just as bad as Darby weakly debunking the Titor story with his own assumptions.

I hold you and anyone that people turn to for answers to a higher standard. Your words have weight, Sam. Be careful with what you say and how you say it. I am apt to believe your influence is stronger than you believe.

As Ever
Temporal Recon
Temporal Recon, you are condescending towards Sam, which she definitely didn't deserve and it's inappropriate on this Forum. She will agree or not with your opinions and theories, but you can't get in here like that and tell her how she is supposed to behave as a Titor expert several times over in the course of this thread. I see that kind of behavior, when repeated and targeting the same person over and over as a form of personal attack.

Everyone is free to share what they understand from the Titor saga. Details, plot holes, crazy theories, anything. People out there are able to take what they want out of those discussions on their own, without your help. You can't tell a knowledgeable member in the Titor department to restrain herself from sharing her opinions/theories based on the sole fact that you don't completely agree with them (or don't see them as true/correct/etc).

I don't doubt the amount of knowledge you posses regarding Titor. I just won't let you harm the continuity of this discussion any further by preventing others from adding their input in the discussion without concerns of having their opinions ripped apart by you. As per the rules.

--Numenorean7
 

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