If the Universe Spun

[denbo88]

Re: If the Universe Spun

I was thinking about how much every generation tends to revere and respect modern science, no matter what period from the past. But all they were doing was interpreting science according to the paradigm of the day. Thats what they have done for hundreds of years, to the amusement of later generations. Why should this generation of "scientific understanding" be any different to later generations? Every generation is so smug about what they know, but 200, 300, 400 years from now, future generations will read our science textbooks after dinner on quiet winter evenings for amusement, not knowledge. Why should we hold science so dear, so sacred in light of history? Have not the shamans, the mystics, and prophets given us anything valuable? Have they not taught us that there is another way to enlightenment?

 

[Zoomerz]

Re: If the Universe Spun

Denbo;

I think a good summation of this debate would be so say that you "believe", and I don't. I too have theories about life, and almost any other topic, as do you. That's fine.

Neither of us discounts experiential evidence. The difference is, you choose to interpret a theoretical explanation as fact, and I don't. You are correct that science continually re-evaluates itself, it's methods, and it's conclusions. It does so freely and without possessiveness. In fact, it does so by design and constant challenge. The old sciences you claim are continually debunked are theories, not facts. Theories are meant (by design) to be debunked or proven correct. My personal experience and sense of logic leads me to accept this methodology. It doesn't always make me right, but I have found it to be a much more accurate and assuring platform to live my life by. I respect your right to live by faith and belief.

For thousands of years man "believed" the earth was flat, because that was his experience and interpretation. Science proved that wrong, and I could throw many more of those at you (and prove them scientifically) than you could throw back. It does no good.

I thought of another good analogy that helps explain my point that interpretations of the causes and effect of experiential evidence can be very misleading....A magician (as we know) uses various techniques to fool the viewer. To the viewer, when the magician puts the woman into the box and levitates it, then poof, he opens the box and the woman is gone, the "experience" is that he made her disappear. Of course, we all know he didn't. There was a trick involved.

Science would demand to know how the trick worked. Science would seek to understand the cause and effect in definable terms. Until it could do so, it would develop "theories" as to what actually occurred. However, to the viewer, it would simply look as though the woman actually disappeared, and there would be some that would go home "believing" that that's the only explanation. After all, they saw it with their own eyes.

Anyway, I respect your right to believe. I will continue to call your beliefs "theories", and you will continue to believe they are facts. That's fine with me.

Regards!
Z-

 

[StarLord]

Re: If the Universe Spun

Denbo, Zoomerz

Now we are approaching a pivotal point in the road where it splits. For those of us that are used to playing in a 'flatlander' sandbox, we have all sorts of words, expressions and vocabulary to describe every facet of the sandbox experience. Concepts and theories can be traded in a flash because of this mutual understanding and links to understood words.

Suddenly, we have a experience outside of that 'sandbox' it is just as real, but the lack of spoken concepts that make sense to others that actually capture what was experienced rushes at us like a unmaned freight train. Not only this but there is another pecadillo regarding experiences of theis sort, for some reason the vocabulary we do find that tries to capture even some of the nuances fall horribly short AND oftimes is misconstrued do to semantics.

Now for the real fun, everything we know is wrong. All our cherished and highly polished foundations and laws of science and logic that serve us so well here, have no bearing nor place outside of our 'sandbox'.

 

[Zoomerz]

Re: If the Universe Spun

Star!

But didn't Denbo's pre-cognition, or TT-provided vision of the future happen within our sandbox? After all, we're not presuposing that it did, are we? I can agree with him that it happened, however I'm a bit more cautious in concluding that TT into the future is a fact because it did.

I'm also not discounting any of the possibilities. Heck, what would the word "virus" have meant to someone in 400bc? A different sandbox. However, acknowledging there are unknown sandboxes out there does not lead me to any conclusions, other than there are other sandboxes out there!

Z-

 

[BubbuClinton]

Re: If the Universe Spun

Zoomerz said:

For thousands of years man \"believed\" the earth was flat, because that was his experience and interpretation. Science proved that wrong, and I could throw many more of those at you (and prove them scientifically) than you could throw back. It does no good.

Zoomerz, I am OK with you making analogies and stuff and I understand your point about science and experience. However, I don't believe man actually believed the world was flat for thousands of years. That idea was actual established in a 19th century novel that became an "urban Legend". All of the current evidence of trade patterns, old maps, and ancient customs show that Man understood the Earth was round.

Perhaps a better analogy would be the belief that the earth was the center of God's creation that was held for hundreds of years by the Catholic Church. It took brave scientists like Galileo to break the mold and suggest a new paradigm. An now it is a given fact that I am the center of the universe. (Just kidding) you get the point.

However, as to the debate at hand, you are both wrong Just kidding again, lighten up. Timetravel has nothing to do with spinning universes. Look at the quantum physics point of view. All things exist at all times and your decisions pass you through life in a linear manner as you make decisions. It is probably humans that are linear and not the universe, we just perceive it incorrectly because we refuse to build with tinker toys and only play with sand in our box.

Bubbu

 

[Harte]

Re: If the Universe Spun

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"BubbuClinton\")</div>

Zoomerz said:

Zoomerz, I am OK with you making analogies and stuff and I understand your point about science and experience. However, I don't believe man actually believed the world was flat for thousands of years. That idea was actual established in a 19th century novel that became an \"urban Legend\". All of the current evidence of trade patterns, old maps, and ancient customs show that Man understood the Earth was round.

Perhaps a better analogy would be the belief that the earth was the center of God's creation that was held for hundreds of years by the Catholic Church. It took brave scientists like Galileo to break the mold and suggest a new paradigm. An now it is a given fact that I am the center of the universe. (Just kidding) you get the point.[/b]

How about this one. 200 years or so ago, if you said that a rock fell from the sky, scientists would have laughed you out of town.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"BubbuClinton\")</div>

However, as to the debate at hand, you are both wrong Just kidding again, lighten up. Timetravel has nothing to do with spinning universes. Look at the quantum physics point of view. All things exist at all times and your decisions pass you through life in a linear manner as you make decisions. It is probably humans that are linear and not the universe, we just perceive it incorrectly because we refuse to build with tinker toys and only play with sand in our box.

Bubbu [/b]

Bubbu,
What exactly does quantum physics have to say about time travel? I am not aware of any "all things exist at all times" portion of the theory. Enlighten us if you will. Please include references if possible.

Harte

 

[Zoomerz]

Re: If the Universe Spun

Sorry everyone for having taken this thread off-topic. I'm still learning not to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong!

Z-

 

[Harte]

Re: If the Universe Spun

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Zoomerz\")</div>

Sorry everyone for having taken this thread off-topic. I'm still learning not to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong!
Z- [/b]

Z,
The way I see it, you didn't take the thread off topic. That was done by denbo88. He started the thread on firm scientific ground,

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"denbo88\")</div>

I have been reading Michio Kaku's new book, Parallel Worlds and he mentions something that I never came across before.

He points out that many things around us spin from tops, to hurricanes, planets, galaxies and quasars. but the universe itself does NOT spin.
\"When we look at the galaxies in the heavens, their total spin cancels out to zero. (This is quite fortunate, because, as we see in chapter 5, if the universe did spin, then time travel would become commonplace and history would be impossible to write.)\" P. 95.

Can't wait to get to chapter 5.[/b]

but then he collapsed into a belief system:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"denbo88\")</div>

I don't want to get bogged down with theory when experience tells us clearly that it is possible. I prefer to approach this problem from another angle rather than theory. I guess you could call it the \"Existential Approach\".[/b]

You merely called him on it.

Harte

 

[Zoomerz]

Re: If the Universe Spun

I know H, but I've certainly said everything I need to say, and it seems the focus of the topic changed because of it, so I've said enough. He doesn't agree.

Z-

 

[BubbuClinton]

Re: If the Universe Spun

Back in 1957 H. Everett suggested that all available choices exist. J. A. Wheeler and D. DeWitt following that lead suggested that all available choices are indeed realised at measurement and that the universe splits into copies of equally real universes, each containing one of the possible choices. Of course there are those that dispute this and claim it was just a mathematical tool to keep quantum mechanics viable. But I like to think that things work like this.

An explanation that I heard on TV (where all valid data comes from) postulated that we are moving through our choices and perhaps we choose the path that we are moving through. Then possibly we can chose to move backward. Also De Javu is just a memory shared with our otherselves.

I have often related this to Hopi Indian believes of the great singularity, where we all were once part of a great light that slowed down to individual wave lengthens to experience life in the form of matter. If this where the case, if we are eternal beings and the purpose of life is to experience things, then we would want to experience all things, thus experience all possible out comes. But with experience comes understanding, so perhaps linear decisions have an impact on or future out comes and understands. Its a little deep, but so is quantum physics. We are problem just dead matter anyway.

As for time travel, this where all of the time thread discussions come from. If you travel back on a certain thread and make a change, you in reality would simply just be moving to another thread and not affecting the thread you started on. Thus JT would say that nothing he did in this time thread could affect him in the future.

For light reading:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time-travel-phys/


There are a lot of ideas about how do time travel, such as wormholes. I remember hearing some postulate that when we die, the white tunnel people experience is actually a microscopic wormhole created in the body that your spiritual self passes through. I will have to test it some day way in the future.

Quantum theory like everything else is still in its infancy. It has spawned string theory and membrane theory all of which are very interesting to consider. I like the theory that all black holes link parallel universes and the Universe is riddled with black holes.

I hope this points you in some directions for reflection.

Bubbu

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