The illusive Nature of Time

Joined
Oct 18, 2019
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402
It's not about me "liking' what you wrote.
It's about your complete detachment from observed reality.

Personally, I don't care at all if you want to live in a fantasy. I respond to nonsense such as yours because I don't "like" the idea that somebody else could be mislead by your obvious foolishness.

this is all you have to say? The only person in a fantasy here is you, the person that can't even justify that there senses are not or being manipulated is the person who is foolish and living in a care free world. Some statements about clocks ticking does not dig you out of the hole you did not realize you fell into, you are not acting like a scientist, you are not relying cool rational analysis.

Sorry, no. Time dilation happens every, single time a particle is accelerated in a particle accelerator. Particles with very short half lives come into existence and last longer before decay than they would without the acceleration. In fact, in the case of some observed particles, scientists actually rely on time dilation to slow the particle's clock so they even have time to observe it.

what was I refering to? Your senses not that. what does that prove? Peoples senses were used to observe the tools, to build the tools, even to think of the concept of gravity, to see the measurement, are the senses accurate, relying on theories determined by senses does not answer the question, are yours senses accurate, which is a very basic thing which science does not address in any theory by the way you should know if and you by some small chance disgree qoute the sciencefic method and give some good sources this time which I doubt since I studies science for years, you can't just ignore to feel better and verbally smear people that bring up the question, its unpreffessional and a slave to your emotions.

If there were no time dilation through gravitation, then you need to explain why clocks on GPS satellites run faster than clocks on Earth. Every reading has to correct for this error.

tools are tools, tools can break down or just be influenced by something other then you think is influencing that, its just logic.

Regarding the rest of your drivel, solipsism doesn't explain anything. Of course, if you'd prefer that there be no explanation (as I indicated earlier,) then solipsism is your only possible position.

The rest, well all you have done is qoutes some scientific THEORIES that have no relavence as a response to questioning weather your senses can be manipulated or not. The theories are well described and understood yet they are theories that are created and tested using a limited amount of tools that you can't measure the accuracy of in a limited amount of space, do the so called laws of physics apply outside this solar system? I don't know, scientists don't know, you don't know.

please elaborite instead of saying all these things that you are not providing reasons for, how is solipsism drivel? Are you just going to keep saying that think its an actual proof until the other party can't say anything anymore because you keep trying to pass of insults and irrelavent statements as proof?
Obviously observed reality could be a fantasy because so far you have not bothered to try to disprove that, you might call that "nonsense" but if insults are the only proofs you can prove you are misleading yourself and cannot be helped; debates are the process of providing relavent proofs for or against. First, "shouldn't" a scientist or somebody that studies the scientific method recognise the inherent flaws of that system which not a philosophy that is meant to be used to prove that the observations are accurate, of course going on the assumption that your senses are not being alter which the person who wrote that philosophy specifically stated, which you should determine what is supposed to be obvious for yourself. That is not science's domain, other philosophies provide proofs for or against, instead of qouting from scientific theories that have no relavence qoute the actual philosophies for or against. It seems you do not know even the names of these philosophies yet hope that I am incorrect and try to convice yourself of that, well you know nothing of those philosophies so you have not questioned that much.
People who question a little are small, people that question their questions are medium, people that question everything are large.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
402
senses = data, data = certain enterpetation by consciousness, do not know the process therefore do not know if the data is being manipulated, certainly consciousness has that ability, read about aristotles
senses = the starting point on which to form a hypothosis.

response: that is one way to define senses, another is data gained from eyes ears nose taste buds touch and so on.

data = the extrapolation of information from testing.

response: another way to define data, example soundwaves, they are meaningless until given meaning by your brain

science is not a substitute for actual logical philosophy

Then the opposite must be true.
how so?
response: the root of science is an assumption that science has not addressed and cannot and is has admited that it cannot address and the assumption is needed, is what you see accurate in anyway? science is a way to "make sense of what you see" with a certain degree of perceived accuracy, but is not a substitute for the philosophy for or against.


you need to train you mind to synthesize and understand the data which can take some time.

correct, synthesis is indeed the highest form of learning. The ability to synthesize in only limited by one's ability to climb the heirarchy of learning.(Bloom's taxonomy)


if everything was just space and mass and there is a beginning... how

if you take hydrogen, helium and a few other gases, put them together,then apply significant energy, guess what happens? Proteins form. After that, you can apply regular old water and now you've created
the potential to form life. If life then mass moves. Actually the gases move anyway.



response: is there an end, what do you need to take to get hydrogen, helium and a few other gases, things are infinitely divisible so can be out of out of an infinite amount of physical things. Beginning in what way? Gases move but why? what causes whatever causes it to move to move? is energy physical?

no object can cause itself to move and the only way a beginning could occur is if the object caused itself to move

everything moves in space...everything. There is always force. Therefore there is always cause.

response: what causes there to be force, if you mean force is on object hitting another to create movement, there nothing can cause itself to move when it is not moving when something is only mass. If you mean something that is not mass that is a property of something that has mass that causes inherent movement or temporary movement then yes; in science an electromagnetic field could be that. Then again everything needs a cause to be the way it is, energy cannot cause something to be the way it is without something causes energy to be the way it is, and every cause needs a cause or there is no cause. scientifically is that correct?
I have to read so much for work that I never get to read for fun. I do like Isaac Asimov though!


work? what type? read caves of steel, the naked sun, and some of the robots of dawn.
Watched rick and morty?
what other topics do you want to discuss that are fun?
 
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Harte

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
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https://webhome.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Philosophy/axioms/axioms/Why_Solipsism_is.html
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2011871?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
Solipsism - Conservapedia

Also, I already told you you'd have to explain observed phenomena that match perfectly with Relativity in a non-relativistic theory.
Time dilation happens every, single time a particle is accelerated in a particle accelerator. Particles with very short half lives come into existence and last longer before decay than they would without the acceleration. In fact, in the case of some observed particles, scientists actually rely on time dilation to slow the particle's clock so they even have time to observe it.

If there were no time dilation through gravitation, then you need to explain why clocks on GPS satellites run faster than clocks on Earth. Every reading has to correct for this error.
I note a conspicuous absence of any explanation whatsoever.
Multiple predictions made by Relativity in the early 1900's have been observed over the last century, including the most recent observation of gravitational waves.

So, there's a lot more than time dilation by gravity and by acceleration that you're gonna have to explain without Relativity.

Of course, you won't. You can't.

Harte
 

Einstein

Temporal Engineer
Joined
Dec 24, 2004
Messages
3,587
https://webhome.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Philosophy/axioms/axioms/Why_Solipsism_is.html
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2011871?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
Solipsism - Conservapedia

Also, I already told you you'd have to explain observed phenomena that match perfectly with Relativity in a non-relativistic theory.


I note a conspicuous absence of any explanation whatsoever.
Multiple predictions made by Relativity in the early 1900's have been observed over the last century, including the most recent observation of gravitational waves.

So, there's a lot more than time dilation by gravity and by acceleration that you're gonna have to explain without Relativity.

Of course, you won't. You can't.

Harte
Hi Harte

I see you're still picking on the young folks that don't know you're spouting bullshit. Relativity is bullshit! And anyone that says otherwise is full of shit too. Gravity doesn't bend light. The atmosphere of the sun is what is responsible for the bending of light. We can see the phenomena here on earth at every sunset and sunrise. Anyone notice that we can see an atmospheric lensing of the sunlight on the horizon which magnifies the size of the sun due to the sunlight being bent like a glass lens would do all because of the curvature of the earths atmosphere? Of course we are actually seeing the sun minutes before actual sunrise and minutes after actual sunset due to this lensing effect. I'm calling out Occam's Razor to debunk light being bent by gravity. The sun's atmosphere extends outwards of a million miles. Funny how no one here on earth can produce a lab experiment proving gravity bends light in a laboratory setting. But we all know magnifying glasses do.

As for gravity waves traveling at the speed of light? If they did then the delay time would have caused all planets in all solar systems to fall into their respective stars. That would have happened billions of years ago. None of us would be here today if that were true. Just more bullshit.

What about GPS? The military does not use relativity math to keep their satellites synchronized with earth clocks. Mainly because it doesn't work. They just send up synchronizing pulses to the satellites at regular intervals to keep everything working. The accuracy using that method allows for a precision location measurement down to a millimeter accuracy. The interval between synchronization pulses is classified.

I'm challenging the scientific community on their time dilation bullshit too. Have you noticed that time dilation measurements are only done on charged particles in the lab setting? We don't have a method yet to accelerate matter in the uncharged state to light speeds to verify if regular matter time dilates at those speeds. Just 100% bullshit.

Rule of thumb! If relativity predicts it, it's bullshit!
 

NaturalPhilosopher

Active Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
834
Hi Harte

I see you're still picking on the young folks that don't know you're spouting bullshit. Relativity is bullshit! And anyone that says otherwise is full of shit too. Gravity doesn't bend light. The atmosphere of the sun is what is responsible for the bending of light. We can see the phenomena here on earth at every sunset and sunrise. Anyone notice that we can see an atmospheric lensing of the sunlight on the horizon which magnifies the size of the sun due to the sunlight being bent like a glass lens would do all because of the curvature of the earths atmosphere? Of course we are actually seeing the sun minutes before actual sunrise and minutes after actual sunset due to this lensing effect. I'm calling out Occam's Razor to debunk light being bent by gravity. The sun's atmosphere extends outwards of a million miles. Funny how no one here on earth can produce a lab experiment proving gravity bends light in a laboratory setting. But we all know magnifying glasses do.

As for gravity waves traveling at the speed of light? If they did then the delay time would have caused all planets in all solar systems to fall into their respective stars. That would have happened billions of years ago. None of us would be here today if that were true. Just more bullshit.

What about GPS? The military does not use relativity math to keep their satellites synchronized with earth clocks. Mainly because it doesn't work. They just send up synchronizing pulses to the satellites at regular intervals to keep everything working. The accuracy using that method allows for a precision location measurement down to a millimeter accuracy. The interval between synchronization pulses is classified.

I'm challenging the scientific community on their time dilation bullshit too. Have you noticed that time dilation measurements are only done on charged particles in the lab setting? We don't have a method yet to accelerate matter in the uncharged state to light speeds to verify if regular matter time dilates at those speeds. Just 100% bullshit.

Rule of thumb! If relativity predicts it, it's bullshit!
poor einstein, stuck in a mobius loop
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
402
https://webhome.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Philosophy/axioms/axioms/Why_Solipsism_is.html
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2011871?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
Solipsism - Conservapedia

Also, I already told you you'd have to explain observed phenomena that match perfectly with Relativity in a non-relativistic theory.


I note a conspicuous absence of any explanation whatsoever.
Multiple predictions made by Relativity in the early 1900's have been observed over the last century, including the most recent observation of gravitational waves.

So, there's a lot more than time dilation by gravity and by acceleration that you're gonna have to explain without Relativity.

Of course, you won't. You can't.

Harte
well you have not addressed anything that I said, you are implying that you are correct until I provide proof otherwise yet. I am beating around the bush, how can you explain that what your observe the data that your senses send to your mind is accurate; can you explain the phenomena that you observed is what you think it is in the first place. Science relies on the assumption that your senses are an accurate representation of the outside world, qouting science does not get you anywhere as science itself rests on the assumption that what you perceive is not warped or a false perception. If you choose not to easly to deduce this then read about the inventor of the scientific method and the scientific method itself, the inventor states that science rests of that assumption and in any highschool or colledge you will be told the same thing. Science is obviously the study of your observations of information provided by your senses, literally only analyses that to restate. your visual information are not proofs that visual information is accurate because they are only visual information, and science is just the study of that. Logic determines the answer not theories only based of mere observation. Why is what the information send to your consciousness by yours senses accurate, could the data be altered along the way, could something be fooling your senses? There are philosophies for or against, but to debate this question you need to be debated the question, read about those philosophies the logical reasoning.
 

Harte

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
3,672
well you have not addressed anything that I said, you are implying that you are correct until I provide proof otherwise yet.
You are the one with the claim. it IS on you to prove me wrong and not the other way around. It's your assertion. It's your onus to provide the theory/evidence.
Note your own claim:
This is where I digress from the special relativity theory. Einstein essentially says that time is relative. I get that, however by agreeing, there is an unprovable assumption that needs to come with that construct. We must assume that there are varying and arbitrary methods to measure time. There simply isn't any. If there were, it still isn't any good because there's no inherent method available for comparison. Hence the phrase,"coordinated universal time".

To be honest, your postulate on time stopping with motion stopping can only be theoretical. Motion doesn't arbitrarily cease. Otherwise we should ask for our money back from 6th grade when inertia was introduced.

In your football argument with black holes, the ball in fact, would travel at the speed of it's wavelength * monumental speed of the black hole's gravity regardless of where you watch from. Since a human has different measurements than a football, your frame of reference would absolutely change. You can't reduce your analogy of measuring (relative) time as if you were holding coffee in a moving car.
See, here's how this works. You made a claim that all the evidence points against. I asked you to back it up, while I provided a small part of the evidence that says you're wrong, along with simple examples of the phenomena.

Stamping your foot and saying "Nuh uh" is not a counterargument. Your personal preferences cannot apply when there are real, observed, and measured phenomena that support the mainstream view of Relativity.

If you can't bring yourself to believe in gravitational or acceleration time dilation, then you're gonna have to produce at least the rough outline of some model of how the universe works, because you have claimed the current one, for which there exists reams of evidence, is invalid.

Harte
 

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