To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

[Mudpuppy]

To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

The psychology behind why someone would want to hoax is an excellent topic. There has been enormous debate in this forum, especially during the times a hoaxer shows up, concerning why one hoaxes but I don't believe an actual thread has been started. I began an article last fall on hoaxing but never finished it. I do think the psychology behind it all is very interesting. I also think it would benefit the members who (and I have fallen into this category at times) can become highly aggitated at being strung along.

Just as an aside to our new members, at one point this forum welcomed hoaxers with the stipulation that once exposed, they would agree to come clean and be welcomed into the community as a member. But that seemed to invite nutbags from every corner to us and our members invested much time, emotional energy, and sometimes, money or time from families to expose them. It is my belief that it turned the forum into nothing but a witch hunt type of thing where everyone sat around bored waiting for the next idiot to hoax and be caught. The members became quite skilled at catching them, and the hoaxers seemed to become more ignorant of how to hoax. Exposing hoaxers sort of lost steam and the rules were somewhat revamped. We now state very clearly in the rules, that we do not tolerate hoaxers. I, for one, am glad we took this new turn. None of the hoaxers I've ever seen in forums have ever held a candle to the John Titor saga.

And that brings me back to a few of Apogee's points in the John Titor debate thread. I believe that the reason some of us are still talking about John Titor (although hoaxing is not exclusive to John Titor) is because we have been around the hoaxer block (many in this forum alot longer and more experienced than I) and there has never been any other hoaxer to even come close to Titor's story. You could call him the Uber Hoaxer if you want......but hoax or not...........he has never fully been proven a hoax. If you look at the psychology behind why people hoax, you will not find any of those things in any of John's posts.....at least, I have not. All are welcomed to research hoaxers and hoaxing and post their findings here. I think it's a great topic and appreciate one of our newest members, Apogee, suggesting it as a great topic for debate.

Excerpt from Apogee's post that fits here nicely:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

Its easy with hindsight to simply write Adamski off as a crackpot, -as indeed he was - and I take your point about how he never made any Titor-style predictions. But what I'm really getting at is how much is really known today about exactly why a hamburger salesmen would want to claim alien contact when next to nobody up till that point had done so?

There may be a long history of exposing hoaxers on this board and it may be argued that Titor doesn't seem to fit the profile of one in terms of motivation, but surely its a fact to say that when you are dealing with psychological motivations, the ins and outs of people's minds are as complex and myriad as can be imagined. The bottom line is that most hoaxers simply enjoy being at the centre of something, the kind of positive reinforcement derived from feeling special or unique when they are seen as the keepers of a special experience, secret or knowledge: a degree of almost mystical importance in the eyes of the believers. An importance that would make the taunts of nay-sayers tolerable. And I fail to see any reason why the guy behind Titor's mischief is any different. He (or they) just happen to have a strong political agenda and followed the rules of good-hoaxing well.

Caros Allende's techniques were very similar when he made his original, teasing contact with Dr Jessup, also back in the fifties. The Philadelphia Experiment and all its new marvellous forms on the net can be traced easily back to this one individual's mind games. And he was clever with it, too. Telling the good doctor just enough to make him believe there was something to his claims of inside knowledge, mixed with just enough truth and half-truth to make it all seem just possible. A really good hoax, set in motion in this manner can very soon reach a sort of critical mass of interest which then allows it to be almost self-perpetuating.

The Philadelphia Experiment absolutely had me hooked as a kid. As an adult, I see now that there was nothing whatsoever to it but the unverifiable claims of a few questionable individuals. The myth-making capacity of human nature did the rest. But there are many, many believers out there clutching at any straw that might make it still true. A truly successful hoax!

The only thing that thus far sets Titor apart from the usual doobies who claim wild stuff and places him in the Allende league, is that unlike most - he did his homework and knew when to quit.

I for one don't believe, as many here seem to, that Titor never put a foot wrong and that his so-called predictions are working out. He, to my mind, just played a good hand of sprinkling open-to-interpretaion extrapolation from known trends (and I include his nukes in Iraq statement) through his posts. I do, however, believe that like Allende and - indeed like Adamski- he knows that if you get the balance of plausible and fantastic just right, enough people will believe to fulfill your needs (whatever they may be).

I know also that if I were the perpetrator of this Titor business I would be thoroughly enjoying this internet monster I'd created. And that would be motivation enough!

I suppose you're right to adopt the 'no capital punishment to save the one innocent man' tact. But unfortunately, from my point of view, Titor looks like a life sentence for many, many credulous people.

So the sad thing is, I imagine that fifty years from now, when Titor has moved, like Adamski, into the 'ridiculous' file, he will still, just as Adamski still does, have a handful of the faithful to hold his torch.[/b]

 

[Apogee]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

Thanks Mud Puppy,

A whole new thread to explore this stuff properly!
Very cool.

 

[sinister]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

one thing i've noticed by being around the internet for a little while, was that hoaxers generally can't let go of the situation they've created. I have never seen a time where eventually the person came back either to 1) expand and go further with the hoax or 2) to rake in what they consider 'credit' for what they did. When money isn't involved, the only purpose of a hoax can be to relish in the actual deception. A hoaxer, as I've seen, will have a hard time breaking themselves away from the hoax they've created.
I suppose the hoaxer might be content in simply observing the mess they've created, but from what I've seen there always has to be an end to it. Either full acceptance, or full dismissal.
There's no reason to drag Titor into every thread, so I apologize, but I would have to agree that this is one of the reasons I'm supremely confused about Titor.

 

[Apogee]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Sinister\")</div>

I suppose the hoaxer might be content in simply observing the mess they've created, but from what I've seen there always has to be an end to it. Either full acceptance, or full dismissal.
There's no reason to drag Titor into every thread, so I apologize, but I would have to agree that this is one of the reasons I'm supremely confused about Titor.[/b]

Perhaps in the Titor case, he still involves himself by debating (for or against!) himself under another guise. It sounds like a quite delicious idea, being in the midst of all that speculation and passion and be the only one to know the truth!

I think you're right though, generally hoaxers screw up by returning to the scene of the crime in more obvious ways.

In Britain recently there was an interesting programme called 'A Very British UFO Hoax' in which a movie special effects company were hired to build and fly a working flying saucer. The result (flown over a carefully selected strip of countryside) was interesting. Most of the witnesses interviewed by a suspiciously prompt TV crew afterwards clocked it was a hoax as a result. But some of those who saw the object added details that had not been present on the mock-up and one or two even said there had been two.

Interesting, how some people are prone to being foled whilst others can smell a rat a mile off.

 

[Mudpuppy]

To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"sinister\")</div>

one thing i've noticed by being around the internet for a little while, was that hoaxers generally can't let go of the situation they've created. I have never seen a time where eventually the person came back either to 1) expand and go further with the hoax or 2) to rake in what they consider 'credit' for what they did. When money isn't involved, the only purpose of a hoax can be to relish in the actual deception. A hoaxer, as I've seen, will have a hard time breaking themselves away from the hoax they've created.
I suppose the hoaxer might be content in simply observing the mess they've created, but from what I've seen there always has to be an end to it. Either full acceptance, or full dismissal.
There's no reason to drag Titor into every thread, so I apologize, but I would have to agree that this is one of the reasons I'm supremely confused about Titor.[/b]

Hi sinister

Don't apologize about dragging Titor in.....he actually fits in many categories and rightly so in this one concerning hoaxing. You are also correct that there is an element about hoaxers, much like arsonists, who like to take a step back and look at their creation to see how it develops....it's a kind of psychotic "high" and stimulates that part of the brain that releases endorphines. The thing with Titor is that he had a very specific writing style and if you have ever communicated with anyone online for very long, you get a "feel" for them....can almost recognize them under different names just from the way they post or chat. So far, and I have yet to be everywhere, I haven't seen any similar postings or hoaxers. He could be just sitting in the wings reading and lurking. Maybe that's enough for him. If so, eventually he may come out into the open....maybe not.
And then again, there is the other possibility....he is a time traveler and did, indeed, go back to another time. Only "time" will tell. :lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

Perhaps in the Titor case, he still involves himself by debating (for or against!) himself under another guise. It sounds like a quite delicious idea, being in the midst of all that speculation and passion and be the only one to know the truth!
?
I think you're right though, generally hoaxers screw up by returning to the scene of the crime in more obvious ways.[/b]

Well, there was speculation for awhile that Darby, the moderator over at Anomolies was really JT. [Darby stop laughing so hard). I always thought that would have been somewhat ingenius because he is the biggest naysayer JT has around. How sublime....to create a character and then create a site to host his postings after Art Bell's forum went down, and then debate all 20,000 members for five years and be on the opposing side of your own creation.......interesting.......and complex.

Nice comment by Starlord below from another thread. (I'm not sure how to move one post over without losing it so I'm going to copy and paste it in this thread)


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>

?
Apogee, Welcome,
?
To say that this board was fraught with Hoaxers at one time is putting it mildly.
Most intelligent people cannot understand why folks would come here to waste their time and lie. That is, folks that may not have spent enough time on the undernet.
?
There you will find almost every lie known to mankind and then some and you get an inkling of why there are people that are so very lonely they would debase themselves to the point of lieing. ?
?
Perhaps that's just it, the man or folks that made up titor knew just when to quit. You may be aware as well as I that the longer one prevaricates, the better your memory has to be....
[/b]

Here is a brilliant post by one of our members from another thread. Although it is not completely about why people hoax, it's a halarious post to would-be hoaxers. I think it also fits nicely in this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"August\")</div>

Although the title of this thread might seem humorous, I am dead serious. ?
?
My ideas regarding the creation of a proper hoax are twofold: First, the hoaxers who visit us--and I am sure one is born each minute--will at least give us a better challenge. Second, both the believers and the non-believers will help me create a yardstick to measure both the real timetravelers and the hoaxers. ?
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And I welcome real time travelers to contribute to my ideas and others to increase the value of this user's guide.
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Dear future hoaxers,
?
So you have decided to create a hoax, have you? Excellent. For some reason unknown to us you have decided to lie to strangers on the internet. This community finds this behavior reprehensible, but we are glad you are not wasting your money on real therapy. Please spend this saved money wisely.
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The following guidelines will help you create a wonderful lie for all to behold.
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1. Prepare yourself emotionally. This will be a difficult ride for you. Many people will not believe you, and even those that do believe you will exhaust you emotionally. Put all \"real\" relationships on hold as they will deteriorate from your utter lack of emotional stamina during the hoax.
?
2. Prepare your story to the absolute end. You will eventually want to disappear from this community as you will \"return\" to your time. Make sure you have all the facts of your character readily available. Biography. Family. Music tastes. ?
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3. Study physics and math at least a little. Let's face it: a Jet pilot and a Firefighter both know at least a little bit about the science behind their jobs. Know just a little bit about yours.
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4. Study history, sociology, and politics in full. You cannot \"predict\" the future for us if you know nothing of the past. Understand as best you can \"how things happen\" in societies and political systems. Many hoaxers underestimate this part of preparation and it quickly undoes them.
?
5. Use basic English. Don't make language an issue during the hoax. There are many more language and communication majors on university campuses than there are physics majors. And that statistic transfers to this forum: don't find yourself locked in debate with 10 language students when you can limit yourself to one physics student.
?
6. Do not want to be believed. This is a dead giveaway. Do not even mention it unless someone proclaims their disbelief to you. Pretend that belief of your compatriots in the forum is the last thing on the planet. You just are here. You are a timetraveler: you need to prove nothing.
?
7. Pretend you are a tough guy (or gal). Do not pretend you are anything else other than a tough guy with the right stuff. Now this is based on the supposition that the only time travellers visiting us will be professionals--I can't imagine a future with civilians taking holiday trips to the past. That said, we don't need you to be military but at least disciplined as such. And cold nerves. Have you ever listened to the voice of a professional pilot solving big problems while in the air? Azimov's Andrew Harlan is a good example.
?
8. Know your motivations thoroughly. The only thing you are going to get from this community is interesting social time in the safety of the internet. Anything else is better gotten in person. Think about what gets a time traveler out of bed in the morning. Don't start the hoax until you know this fully.
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9. Make photos of equipment readily available. I know how frustrating actually constructing the props will be. But it is necessary and a fair request from this community. John Titor basically said, \"Hi, I am from the future. Would you like to see pictures of my machine and parts of the manual?\" and you must live with this fact. Pictures must be a part of it.
?
10. Kiss your free time goodbye. Assuming you are one of the down-trodden workers or students in our society (only such accompanying pain would make you want to lie to strangers), you have limited free time after an 8 to 10 hour workday. (If you have a trust fund, why aren't you skiing in Aspen?) So you must answer questions in your free time and let me tell you there will be a lot of questions. So put the remote down, make a sandwich and some good strong coffee, and slide up to the computer desk. ?
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After reading these, you may decide that it is too much work. And I agree with you. Will the thrill of having strangers believe you are someone that you are not solve the problems you are facing? Will it make the pain go away? Probably not.
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If you still want to go through with the hoax, and have some concerns over one or more of these guidelines, feel free to PM me. And I will give you my focused attention. [/b]

....and one more excellent post by Paul Lyon (just some additional history/info for new members):

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Paul Lyon\")</div>

If anyone remembers the most extravagant hoaxter, Boris from the other forum, it should be obvious to him what happens when one is encouraged to spin the yarn out into other dimensions and timelines; eventually, even the hoaxter himself can't remember the line between his fiction and reality.
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For those who weren't there: Boris claimed to have been from 2,000 years in the future, and another planet, and came to Florida and to us on a device using his voicebox as an engine. He based his story on a novel he wrote, which according to when you talked to him, was either based on a true story or was the story itself. Many, many members of the other board apparently believed him, including the managing staff.
?
Eventually, his thread had to be restarted because of the amount of attention he received, and it all finally toppled from its own weight. It seems that the final judgment on him was that he was making it all up (what a revelation!) but that he meant well and spread a good \"message\" of love and goodwill.
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The reason I bring this up is that this is what you will get sooner or later if you encourage these characters: a huge, grotesque, fantastic hoax, that can take over the board-- that, at the very least, can absorb the attentions of many members.
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The \"game\" that many seem to enjoy is probably now pretty much exhausted. Only someone with no familiarity with the site would try to foist another future-boy tall tale on us; in fact, he would gain immediate credibility just by virtue of the fact that he would be brash enough to try it after so many have fallen. It would make him look rather innocent-- which is what August's protocols recommend, I think.[/b]

So as you can clearly see Apogee (and all those who are more logically minded)....you are not adrift in a hopeless Titor sea of illogic and gullibility on this forum. There are plenty who feel the same way you do.

 

[Apogee]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Mudpuppy\")</div>

So as you can clearly see Apogee (and all those who are more logically minded)....you are not adrift in a hopeless Titor sea of illogic and gullibility on this forum. There are plenty who feel the same way you do.[/b]

Hooray for the humour and the level-headedness of all those posters!

I can now return ( reassured, my mission complete) to my mothership and hence to my own time - happy in the knowledge that not everyone in the early part of the 21st Century is vulnerable to mind control...

Only joking!

 

[Maggot7]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

I hate hoaxers I hate them

 

[Mudpuppy]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

Hey Apogee,

I have to post this just for you. I know you will get a kick out of it since you are pretty keen on the whole hoaxing thing. This is an older post made over at TTI and reposted by Journe at Time Travel Portal. It's really halarious if you think about. It's a hoaxer (at least we think he's hoaxing-hehehe) posting as the real John Titor (hoaxer??-jury still out) claiming to be a hoaxer!!!!! And the really funny thing is that the response is pretty much that now he has to prove he is a hoaxer and not the real JT. It boggles the blonde mind. Here it is:


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"JohnTitor\")</div>

I guess I should come clean. Yes I am TimeTravel_0. I was hoping to put this mystery to rest and stop all this madness you people have gone through to try to prove or disprove my existence. My real name is Samson Rodriguez. It all started as an elaborate hoax that me and my friends thought up. I am only in college and would like to apoligize to all of you who have defended me as a real person. My \"time machine\" was nothing more then a few junk items we found in a trash dump where we found all our supplies for the hoax. Again I apoligize for all the work you have put into this and thank you again.
Signing off one last time,
John Titor[/b]

(Sources cited: http://timetravelportal.com/viewtopic.php?t=41 )

and original source:
http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=time_travel&Number=18712&Forum=time_travel&Words=timetravel_0&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=18473&Search=true#Post18712

 

[Apogee]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

As much as I like the thought of Samson coming clean, his disclaimer is too short and inconsistant of the Titor style to be wholly convincing. It does, however, raise those interesting questions again about what would convince us absolutely of the identitiy of the hoaxer at this stage of the game.

For me, the addition of a business lawyer and mysterious and shady Titor marketing to the whole affair is a bit of a giveaway.

Many of those who defend the Titor claims as genuine have pointed to the apparent lack of his 'selling anything'. Well, that no longer applies. Someone, somewhere is making money off this thing. Could it be that the widespread success of their tall-tale took them by surprise and decided to leave Titor's 'legacy' in the hands of his 'family'?

When you look at the hoaxes that have set out deliberately to make cash like the 'Santilli Alien Autopsy' for example, there is an awful lot of money to be made. Santilli became quite minted as the result of that one. 'The Hitler Diaries' sold to a national British newspaper for a six figure sum.

And what about the more cynical but equally plausible idea that the whole Titor thing is a marketing scam. 'Chug' on another board puts it like this:

{QUOTE} "This was an organised and well planned/thought out hoax. Despite the obvious enjoyment of seeing something like this spread across the entire planet I believe (again something quite plausible), that the author(s) purposely chooses the net as a vehicle to convey the highly complex concept of a multi-dimensional universe where every state/possibility occurs & exists to match a product being sold relating to the concept of time-travel.

Do some research, read the William Gibson book i mentioned, and you'll find that marketing companies are not ignorant of using these methods, meme's, indirect marketing, association etc etc.

I believe we?ve too easily dismissed the possibility of Titor being a marketing ploy. I mean apart the extremely intangible benefit of doing one of the most successive hoaxes on the internet there must be a much more tangible reward for the author(s), ie money. Apart from a research scicentist trying to drum up interest in time travel (very inplausible), the sale of a move/book makes far more sense."

 

[Maggot7]

Re: To Hoax or Not To Hoax-that is the question

I don't know that time machine looked pretty good to me u would have to really good at building things to build that and it had the warning stickers on it and all the plans to