Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

[Zoomerz]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

NICE FREEKIN' POST PHANTOM! You're my hero

War is not "humane". If we have to fight it, lets have the will to win, and be done with it. Lets feed em Stauffer's lasagne for a week...and take away the toilets!

Let our soldiers out of jail. All they did was their job, and did it well.

Z-

 

[CaryP]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

I'm not looking to get into a fight here. But the torture scandal goes way beyond having some naked guy laughed at by a woman, or putting panties on some guys head.

There are several instances where prisoners have been beaten to death or died from injuries inflicted during an 'interrogation" session.

There are several instances where the children of prisoners were abused in the presence of their parents.

There are a number of instances where prisoners have been raped (boys and females) by our military and "intelligence" personnel.

There are a lot of instances where prisoners have suffered permanent injuries from the abuse/torture they received.

This does not even begin to cover the mental/emotional damage inflicted through the humiliation of prisoners religion/religious beliefs. Yeah, okay some of it looked like college pranks and wasn't close to SEER training (whatever that is) but these people didn't VOLUNTEER to be there. They were picked up by our military and held against their wishes. Now, I'm all for kicking ass and taking names if we're at war with an enemy. I don't condone torture. The world does not condone torture. That's why there are international treaties that make torture a war crime.

And then again, who's our enemy that we're still "at war" with? The "turrurists" and "them evil doers"? Okay, what country is that? And don't hand me that "it's better to fight them on the streets of Baghdad, than on the streets of America" crap. Hell, the Iraq war has been the biggest recruiting poster for the jihadists, and better than anything they could have come up with on their own. Being over there and showing our ass and brutality isn't being seen as the "liberators" we were supposed to be.

What's really not being said about the torture scandal, is how many of these people have been detained, tortured and released without ever being charged with anything. The majority of these prisoners are not hardened jihadists, or terrorists. They just got caught up in the wrong place and wrong time. But think of it this way. Would it be okay if some foreign govt. took you out of the country, held you in captivity for 3 to 4 years, humiliated you, beat you? Only to find out they were mistaken, and you really didn't have anything to do with what they picked you up for? Everybody cool with that? I damned sure am not.

I'm not saying that terrorists should be coddled. I'm saying that most of the people being held and tortured ARE NOT TERRORISTS. They don't know jack about the WMDs (cause there are none), the battle plans of the insurgents, or if Saddam had anything to do with 9/11 (he didn't). But hey torture long enough and they'll make some sh1t up. Right? And it'll be fun and we can take lots of pictures for the folks back home. Yeah, that sounds like the plan.

The tactic of casting a big net and then selectively releasing the "fish" while beating the hell out of ALL of them is just begging for a war crimes tribunal down the road. It's not America's tradition to use torture (at least in a publicly endorsed and systemic manner). That's what facist regimes do.

As far as the troops not having a choice, I disagree. Everyone has a choice. Yeah, not following orders might have brought some heat, but not as much as what some of the sacrificial grunts are getting. Was it an excuse of "I was just following orders" for Nazi soldiers who tortured and/or executed prisoners at death camps? No. They were held accountable.

So, let me be clear. I would give no quarter to a "legitimate" terrorist. Execute 'em on the spot is fine with me. Just be damned sure they are a "legitimate" terrorist guilty of some horrible crime. Beating, raping, humiliating and torturing innocent people just to see if they know anything is/should be illegal IMO. The wholesale demonization of any group (in this case Muslim Arabs) is the recipe for genocide. Not exactly what we as Americans (hell, how about civilized human beings) are supposed to be about. Giving a green light to the systemic torture policy as practiced by the Bush admin. and military brass "cuz them A-rab muslim evil doers" "deserve it" in general is just wrong. Torture is wrong. Wholesale demonization of a race or religion is wrong. Cut it any you want. But jumping on the "kill em all, let God sort em out" bandwagon is exactly what the neocons are counting on. Don't be part of their game, and expect to remain part of what I'd call humanity.

Sorry if I went off here. I'm not mad or offended at/by anyone. It just kind of shocked me that the intelligent members here are "Yeeha'ing" the illegal and systemic torture policy endorsed and practised by the current corrupt regime. I don't want to get into anyone's politics, that's not my point. And this post is directed to anyone in particular. Hopefully, it may provoke the reader to think about just what is really going on. I'll STFU for now.

Cary

 

[Zoomerz]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Cary;

You have no fight from me on "legitimate" abuses. I'll quote you below so we're clear:

There are several instances where prisoners have been beaten to death or died from injuries inflicted during an 'interrogation\" session.

There are several instances where the children of prisoners were abused in the presence of their parents.

There are a number of instances where prisoners have been raped (boys and females) by our military and \"intelligence\" personnel.

There are a lot of instances where prisoners have suffered permanent injuries from the abuse/torture they received.

With the exception of the last one, I would wholeheartedly agree with you that these should be punished. Perhaps my reasoning might be a little different, but the outcome the same. None of the above do anything to further our intelligence goals, except the last. I believe it is our *duty* to deter our enemy in any way that we can to reduce their willingness to fight. Rape does not do that, beating someone to death does not do that, and humiliation (making children watch) does not do that. Those only serve one end, the perverted person's doing it.

However, I see little difference between shooting someone in the head and tearing out their fingernails one by one in regards to dealing with an enemy. Both inflict "permanent injury", and both accomplish our goal in:

a) reducing the enemies ability to fight, and
B) gaining valuable information that reduces our enemies ability to fight.

Sometimes in war bombs explode, ripping people's arms and legs off, but leaving them alive. I don't consider this to be *humane* either. But we don't prosecute our soldiers for doing that. No, that's considered "fighting fair". Sorry, I don't buy it.

Most of the cases I have heard of that have resulted in innocent American troops (who were validly carrying out orders and "doing their job") being tried for what I consider to be "trivial" violations (not at all what you describe above). These particular occurrences are ridiculous, and the soldiers hurt by this prosecution should be released immediately (MHO).

On to other parts of your post, most of which I completely agree with you on:

Whether or not we should be in the war at all is a great point, and I happen to agree with you that we should not be. But if we're gonna fight a war (just or not), I say we fight it to win, and stop putting our troops in harm's way by reducing their ability to fight.

Detainees - Another "non-battlefield" issue. I really don't know how I feel on this subject (just trying to be honest about it). I do see your points, and can't argue with them.

Was it an excuse of \"I was just following orders\" for Nazi soldiers who tortured and/or executed prisoners at death camps? No. They were held accountable.

Actually, I know of no "enlisted" rank Nazi soldiers that "followed orders" and were brought up on war crimes charges. Yes, officers who ordered the actions and higher-ups that created the policies were prosecuted. Also, enlisteds that carried out their own actions were as well I'm sure.

Respectfully, please tell me why Lt. Pantano is guilty of anything? Tell me why Capt. Maynulet has been convicted? And you know we could go on and on over this type of witchhunt.

I'm not arguing our sense of decency as human beings. I'm arguing our warped sense of justice and the wrongful "fingerpointing" of GOOD AMERICANS that are unjustly prosecuted. How many GOOD AMERICAN PATRIOTS will be killed because we caused a "split second hesitation" while they tried to figure out whether or not their actions were *moral*??? There just doesn't seem to be any amount of common sense being applied to our efforts. No discernment of truth at all.

I guess in summary, my point is, I don't see how we can continually cite the true injustices that our government is committing against our enemies, without presenting the true injustices that are being perpetrated on our innocent, loyal American soldiers. If you think about it, our positions are NOT opposing. They just present different aspects.

Otherwise, again, I couldn't agree more with you that we (as a country) need to take the high moral ground in protecting human rights of all peoples. The atrocities you speak of are just plain wrong.

MHO

Z-

 

[StarLord]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Many years ago, if we had decided to bomb the friggin hell out of Haiphong Harbor in the very begining forcing the Viet Cong to come to the peace table, the war would have never lasted as long as it did, nor would we have lost as many good men as we did.

As for the other countries that had vessles in that harbor, a simple appology and a pointing out that it may be unwise to park your property where we are about to bomb would have sufficed imho.

When I look back into history and view all man's inhumanity towards his fellow man during a war, I am reminded of the fact that war is just about the worse that it can get here. Some regimes had particular ways of dealing with their enemy, like castrating every single male, regardless of age, thereby aleviating the waste of future thought regarding enemies left behind.

Others, wreaked such havoc and destruction utilizing every known attrociety and then some, upon their chosen enemy that by sheer shock at what one people did to another, the will to fight let alone deal with that enemy even though the country that was invaded could have stood a illequiped army that out numbered the invading force by some 6 or 8 to one.

From one extreme to another, wars have been waged on this planet for thousands of years some for 'a good cause' and others just plain and simple greed. I am by no means condoning torture on any type of people for what ever reason. However, you must admit that the people we are fighting against have absolutely no honor, nor have they seen fit to pay too much attention to the Geneva Convention's directives.

I don't see too much in the way of World Outcry in their direction have you? Were we singled out because most of us can read better or are any closer to God and will of course understand that it's a horrible travesty to make some prisoner sit naked with his underware on his head while a dog sits in attendance? Oh Please.

While it may be ok for some to point out the fact that some lunatic in office got us into this mess in the firstplace under the guise of controlling the oil from that place thereby aleviating any other need for thought, I have to disagree on principle to some of those inhumane charges that have been flung in our face from what ever source it came from. My answer to that is SO FRIGGIN WHAT.

Lets document, put down on paper every single incidence of this inhumane treatment, the particulars and who was involved, what exactly happened and why. Let's tabulate this for BOTH sides. I am afraid that I would have to include those small incidences of, oh, beheadings, torture and mutilations, immolation while still being alive, being murdered after surrendering, hanging of burnt-mutilated-bodies, filming of beheadings and transmitting them for the sake of their cause, I always felt that this was a nice touch and surely proved how kind and civilized a folks could be. not to mention that new technique of blowing yourself up just at the right moment to make sure you get to take as many people with you when you explode, man is that special or what?

So let's count on both sides and see who has been the worst transgressor in being inhumane to whom? Any gusses on who outshines who?

Where was the World Out Cry when this stuff went around?? As far as our treatment to those poor, poor individuals, did we kill any of them, any beheadings, mutilation on our part? No?

Never mistake the whole for the few. Yes, some few fools have stepped out of line, but again SO WHAT? This is a WAR. Regardless of WHY we are there, our men are there putting their asses on the line for you and me 24/7.
So, if a few overzealous people have overstepped their instructions, reegardless of their rank, this ain;t a friggin tea party nor is it a social.

It's War.

 

[K@t 5]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Cary, this is one that I whole-heartedly agree with you on. As children (and parents) we constantly heard the quote, ?Two wrongs do not make a right?. I think in this instance this is very needed.

Whether you like it or not, we as Americans have placed ourselves on a pedestal, trying to prove to the world that we are morally above this type of behavior. Through the past we have made mistakes, yes, but this particular scandal is one our darkest acts yet.

In the event that anyone has forgotten, maybe we need to review the first two crusades that were waged upon these people. Each time, they ended in failure at a great expense to the common people. Never before have they given up ? what makes you believe they will this time? Throughout time, we have been mortal enemies. They believe we are infidels, we believe they are heathens. Each side is convinced of their opinion. Without a change in thought and attitude, on both sides, there can be no resolution. With each war that is waged upon these people, it becomes more and more apparent that there will not be.

As far as the troops not having a choice, I disagree. Everyone has a choice. Yeah, not following orders might have brought some heat, but not as much as what some of the sacrificial grunts are getting.

This is the one spot where I disagree with you. There is something that comes into play here that a lot of people have ignored, and quite frankly, I?m rather surprised that they have. In times of war, any lawful order that is deliberately disobeyed, can and most likely will, be seen as an act of treason. Treason is punishable by death. The commanding officer can choose to have the soldier executed on the spot. There is a reason why officers carry pistols as opposed to rifles. This means do not pass go, do not collect $200. There is no trial; the person accused does not get a chance to plead their case. The line between lawful and unlawful is also very vague. As soldiers, you are told at the very start that it is not in your best interest to disobey an order during wartime.

Is this happening there? Who knows? However, if you are a common soldier and know that you are expendable, the first thing running thru your head is ?if I don?t do this, no one will know the truth as to my actions.? If you are going to be staring down the muzzle of a gun, chances are self-preservation will kick in.

What I do know, and this is from personal experience, is that the military will do whatever it takes to protect the elite from humiliation or exposure to their crimes. They will sacrifice the little guys with no thought or twinge of guilt.

One other thing I would like to present to all those who are gung-ho about the torture issue; what happens when these people come home (those who have not been punished and who happened to have had a major role in the torture that has taken place)? What happens to these people when they have to be reintroduced into society? Once you travel down that path, it is near impossible to turn back. How many more violent crimes will we see? How many suicides? When the heat of the battle dies down, you either have to face yourself or kill the guilt. The first time someone commits a crime, such as rape, it?s usually accidental and the fear issue kicks in. Each time after that, it not only becomes easier, it becomes necessary ? like a drug. After a while, the act of rape isn?t enough and beatings and death are added to the crime to keep the high. Just remember this, if and when your daughters or wives or sisters or mothers cross the path of one of these men.

I?m not attacking anyone, just as Cary wasn?t. However, like him, I want you to understand what it is that you are condoning.

 

[CaryP]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

For those of you who feel that torture is "so what" and "who cares" this is the kind of crap I've been talking about. This is my third time trying to paste this sucker here, so you'll have to go to the link to read the entire article. I pasted the article's title below.

Cary

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/fisher.php?articleid=5415

US Soldiers Told to 'Beat the F**k Out of' Detainees

 

[K@t 5]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

This coming from the inner circle of a man who tells those around him, "If you're not with me, you're against me."
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

In interviews with a number of White House staffers who were willing to talk off the record, a picture of an administration under siege has emerged, led by a man who declares his decisions to be ?God?s will? and then tells aides to ?**** over? anyone they consider to be an opponent of the administration.

Hmmmm...could this be where the attitude started? :dry:
[/font]

 

[StarLord]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

I am sorry, did I miss the part where they read of the tabulations of how many enemies the americans, beheaded, immolated, mutilated, walked in to a group dinner and blew themselves up taking all kinds of folks with them?

There is avery clear cut line between those that give the orders and those of us that follow those orders. Kat hit it on the head regarding refusing to obey orders during a war. You are so screwed blue if you refuse that not even your priest will be able to sort things out for you. Leavenworth is not a place to be. Nor is your record a thing to sport about if it happens to say Unhonorable Discharge. that is a stigma that can screw you each and every day.

If you want to trash the folks the GAVE the orders, go for it. Don't include the poor noncoms in that game, they are just doing what they were ordered to do.

Be sure to let me know when your are done tabulating all those 'bad' things that were done to the prisoners that COMPARE to all the things that have been done to our men.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Star, K@t.

War is Hell, and no one has ever one one in anything resembeling a humane way. The thing is that once you have gone over that line into war, winning isn't everything, its the only thing. A war is a large expensive streetfight, not a boxing match, and to play by a set of rules that, lets face it, no one follows is to insure that we lose. Moral considerations have no place on a battlefeild, and all attempts to impose a set of rules on warfare have failed the first time and every time they have been tested.
Frankly, if I thought that roughing up some captured enemy would save the lives of some of my buddies, I'd do it without a second thought.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Darkwolf, I was LE when I was in. I agree 1000% when it comes to doing my JOB when I am given orders. Nothing is said about wether I may agree or not agree with my orders, thats none of my business. 2nd thoughts when dealing with orders gets you dead, very dead. Even more so when you have a fireteam under your command.

I see that noone want's to touch the answer regarding the severety of what our forces have had to endure when it comes to inhumane treatment compared to what those poor,poor, put upon prisoners have had to deal with. And oh, gee, can't have a dog there while you question them? Hell and Cookies, I'd dress up in cold cuts and pork adobo, if I thought it would help. There are many ways to skin the enemy that does not entail blowing them up, mutilation, behading, you know, the ok stuff.