What is the Universe?

[Harte]

matter is obviously expanding so retrace it all to 1 point that means the big bang...
but you cant make something out of nothing

In fact, the BBT states exactly that, and explains it fairly well, too.

The universe did come "out of nothing." Literally.

"Nothing" was separated into positive and negative energy, with a sum of zero.

The positive energy resulted in the things we see around us (E=Mc^2) and the negative energy is in storage. We call it "space."

I kid you not, that's the explanation. It actually works out that way on paper, with the math.

Harte

 

[Maddy1]

WOW man you define this word very well !! Superb

 

[Rosco..Jones]

Re: What is the Universe?

Is there any way to know what was there before the big bang ?

If we consider that everything, everywhere, is 100% real, that we are not the figment of our own imagination, then, what's the limit, what is the biggest thing possible, are there other universes contained in some super-universes, contained in other bigger containers and such....

And if there are bigger things than our universe, like I said previously,can our human brain only imagine it, understand it ?

At the moment of the BB the universe existed as a singularity of potential energy(PE), kind of like a charged capacitor.
The potential possibilities for all possible universes was contained within.
With the BB discharge of this PE the potential energy began to become actualized into the 3D forces and matter we find around us.
All possible versions of the universe came into existence simultaneously. We are just one of them.
All possible futures exist and we decide, within limits, which to experience.

I am unclear as to the forces surrounding the BB singularity, the natures of time and gravity particularly.
The universe expands into a 4D realm of possibilities, similar to a light cone diagram.
Any location that is further away than C x the age of the universe exists as impossibilities from our perspective.

Anyway, the answer may be it was just the potential energy of the universe waiting to express itself in the material world.
This was just a shoot from the hip answer and is not intended to be considered to be any more than a passing thought.

 

[Justinian]

I submit to you another theory, well to all of you. Called the microcosm theory. I'm not sure if that's official terminology.. but it'll get you in the right direction. It theorizes that there are universes inside universes. Off of which I came up with my own version of it. Okay, I call it my own, but I'm sure someone can find something that I probably heard subconsciously while I was sleeping and when I woke i thought it was my own original idea. (happens a lot)... So anyways.. in MY theory, take a look at basic atomic structure. Electrons, and protons circling around a neutron. (don't kill me if i got those mixed up.) But.. compare that to.. OH yeah.. the solar system. Spherical objects orbiting around one central object..

So my dillemma in my head has always been.. Man I really hope we aren't a Uranium or Plutonium atom that the larger universe is about to split for their nuclear experiments. Think about that one and tell me it doesn't keep you up for at least a few extra hours tonight.

 

[Rosco..Jones]

Universes within universes is a concept I agree with. I see this as a dimensional relationship, rather than a physical one. Our understanding of the universe will be changing in short order. That is, if the 2012 ascension beliefs prove to be true. Once upon a time, we knew the world was flat. The changing understanding, to the world being spherical, was a quantum change in how the universe was viewed. We learned new physics as a result and learned to understand much of how the physical world works.

The next quantum change will be with the understanding of time, changing from a linear view, to a simultaneous one. This will be a spiritual change, not an intellectual one. The true nature of our being a part of a multidimensional reality will become common knowledge, sooner for some than others. I believe this will raise our awareness, much more than the ending of the Flat Earth to Spherical Earth has done. I, myself, await anxiously for this possibility to be realized.

Just an opinion, based upon my life's experiences and studies.

 

[Justinian]

I won't delve too deep because I'm sure it has been posted before and this probably isn't the place. But Rosco, your comment gleans some similiarities to a theory I had heard on the whole Mayan 2012 calendar deal. That it isn't a physical end, but a spiritual change.

 

[Rosco..Jones]

In the book "Flatland", it tells of a 2D world that is visited by a 3D sphere. Their 2D world only allows them to see the portion of the sphere that intersects their reality. All they can see is a circle. The sphere tries to explain it's 3D nature as existing "above" and "below" their reality. This turned out to be a difficult concept to comprehend.

In our 3D reality, we see the spiritual as existing above and below our 3D world. This would be the 4D side of our reality. When a 4D (spiritual) entity visits the 3D realm, what is seen is only that portion that intersects. Life has a 3D/4D aspect. Our physical bodies are only the portion of our greater selves that intersect with the 3D physical reality.

Understanding this concept is similar to the 2D Flatlander's attempting to understand the 3D reality of the sphere. The predicted ascension/spiritual awakening would be our learning to grasp the understanding of our 4D nature. This would change how we are able to interact with our 3D environment. I do see this as a strong possibility of how a spiritual evolution may occur. These ideas are only talking about possible futures. I am both curious and anxious to see what our experienced reality has in store for us. Wait and see is what we do in the meantime.

 

[dave11]

Re: What is the Universe?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Maltuvius\")</div>

WHO SAY'S THAT THERE WAS A BIG BANG THAT STARTED THE UNIVERSE?

How do we know but by the words of men that, that was the way the universe was created? The BIG BANG is just a calculated guess by a bunch of men and women sitting around exercising thier brains trying to come up with an idea to tell all of the rest of us who have asked that question how did it all begin. I believe in God and his SON Jesus Christ and what the Bible has taught me about where man came from and where man is going. And that God created the universe and all things in it. I believe that when Jesus comes
back to set up his Kingdom on Earth that all the questions that we willl want to know the answers to will be revealed to us in an instant. Now all that i have said here is of course my opinion and may be the opinion of somebody else also. [/b]

Maltuvius,
Let us assume that God created the universe then. If you could have been there standing next to God, what would you have seen when he uttered the command Let There Be Light? I submit to you that the sight would appear very similar to what is known as the Big Bang. It seems to me that the more they study the origin of the universe, the closer the scientists come to Genesis.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Maltuvius\")</div>

How do we know that there is anything beyond our solar system? Are we absoluty certain that what we see in our earth bound, and space based telescopes are real beyond our solar system. Just because we see it dos'nt
mean it is there. What if the things that we see are just what our minds want to see. Yes we can look up into the sky at night and see billions of little points of light that our mind say's those are stars and galaxy's. But what if these things that we see and are convinced in our minds are real, are really nothing more than what the Creator wants us to believe in order to keep us from dispare in thinking that our little solar system is the only real thing out there? Now this is just my opinion, but what if. :huh:[/b]

How do we know that anything exists? I may be a figment of someone's imagination. We have five senses to tell us about the world and all of them are wired directly into our brains. No picture appears on the inside of our eyes, what you see you are seeing entirely in your mind. Sounds don't come from our ears, sounds are the result of our brains' interpretation of the modulations of a tiny vibrating bone in our ear. Similarly with smell, feel and taste. All of these senses can be completley halted given the right type of accident or surgery, without the loss of life, so we really don't know anything except what's in our heads, and that might not even be us that knows it.
In this context, all we can do is assume that what we observe is real, or else just assume otherwise and cease to observe anything. So for the purposes of everyday existence, we make the first assumption. This is why we can assume that what we observe beyond our solar system is real. The objects we view (most of them) are sources of electromagnetic radiation, which can be detected and measured by our instruments here on Earth. Theories about what these objects must be make good sense and fit in with all other theories about how things work, even fitting in with what we can observe and discover right here on Earth, where we can "reach out and touch" our results, so to speak.

So, since we must assume that we exist (we have no evidence either way), and we must assume that what we see around us here on Earth exists (things like the Holy Bible, Bethlehem, the Rocky Mountains), it is then at least reasonable to assume that what we see beyond our solar system also exists. We may be wrong, but I suspect that if we are, we're wrong all the way, not just about existence beyond the solar system.

Harte

What is the Universe?



I hear that hubble has taken pictures of as long ago as 15 billion years ago - around the birth of the universe, and the Big Bang Theory is still commonly believed as how the (I would say "our" universe, but I feel that to be usuriously arrogant.) universe was formed.

My Question is simply this:

If there was something that made a huge explosion causing the universe to constantly expand, gobbling up or taking up more and more space (used loosely to describe what was physically around the universe in it's larval stage), then first, what is the universe taking space from; second, what was the cause of that first explosion; and third, exactly what exploded in the first place? In other words, what did the "universe" start out as (before the big bang), what was it sitting in (or hanging in, whatever the case might have been), and what was it's ignitor.

After thinking about this for awhile, egregiously working at a US Postal Service Remote Encoding Center...LOL, it seems also to bring up another theory about mass, and many more questions to accompany it like:

Is there anything currently outside our universe?

Did an entity cause that universe birthing explosion?

Did that entity cause any other universe birthing explosions?

Is the universe really the biggest thing we have the capacity to believe in?

What is the largest thing anyone can think of?

What is the smallest thing anyone can think of (Do we really think we've found it)?

Is it at all possible that there is no "Biggest" or "Smallest" thing and that the size of "things" is truly infinite either way?

Does our perspective limit our belief?

Is our perspective the only thing limiting our existance?

Are we truly the figment of our own imaginations?

Are we truly only physically existant in nature?

What is the nature of our existance?


Honestly, I could go on and on and on and on..LOL...couldn't we all?

Anyway, some speculation on these questions would be greatly appreciated, if for nothing else than entertainment value, but possibly even evolutionary growth.

I was in possession of one of Michiu Kaku's (spelled correctly) books once, yet just as soon as I started reading it, something more interesting (I thought) came across art bell's radio show, and I completely forgot about it, but has anyone heard of he's thought about or anyone else ever addressed any of these questions?

Great! Here's comes another night of googling my arse off!...later


.
.
.
OF COURSE!

I've found something already here...


Actually Darkbreed found it...here it is.

MICHIO KAKU on Parallel universes, BBC

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MICHIO KAKU talks parallel universes​

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Read More​

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Marco: How do you see the experimental confirmation on superstring theory ? How long will it remain an unproven theory?
Dr Michio Kaku: The direct proof of superstring theory may lie far in the future, However, indirect measurements may come fairly soon. Most science, in fact, is done with indirect experiments. For example, we have never visited the Sun but we know that is made out of Hydrogen because we have echoes from the Sun called sunlight. Similarly, we hope to find echoes from the tenth dimension. For example, in Geneva Switzerland, a large Hadron Collider will be turned on and we hope to find particles or super-particles which would be the next lowest vibration of the superstring. Furthermore, dark matter which makes up 90% of the Universe maybe made up of super-particles .

Keith Marsden: Could I exist in a parallel universe and if so would my life take a different course?
Dr Michio Kaku: There are many kinds of parallel universe. If we speak of quantum parallel universe then there may be resemblance to our Universe, except with one quantum difference. For example, if a cosmic ray went through Hitler's mother's womb and Hitler was never born, we could be one quantum event away from a parallel universe without World War 2. However, if the parallel universe is in another dimension then the laws of Physics themselves will change and atoms maybe unstable. And two kinds of matter exist - in those universes, Physics may look entirely different from our own.

Josh Conway: How important is time to the M-Theory?
Dr Michio Kaku: M-Theory is defined in eleven dimensional space time with ten dimensions of space and one dimension of time. So M-Theory only has one time. However, there is some speculation that F-Theory may contain two dimensions of time and ten dimensions of space. So that there would be two times in a twelve dimensional universe. However, F-Theory is only held by a minority of physicists.

Mike Garman: Your theory explains the start of our Universe, but where do the membranes come from that started it?
Dr Michio Kaku: We believe that a multiverse of universes exist like bubbles floating in Nothing. Each bubble forms as a quantum fluctuation in Nothing. We feel that as this bubble forms its matter is dominated by strings and membranes which create musical notes which we see as particles of the universe.

Ross McManus: Can dark matter and black holes be explained using the M-Theory?
Dr Michio Kaku: Partially yes. In M-Theory, black hole solutions exist not only as a remnant of a dying star; they also exist as subatomic particles. So there is an unity between black holes and elementary particles. Also, the next vibration of the string includes a photino or particle which may make up most of the dark matter in the Universe. So dark matter maybe a higher musical note on the string.

Pieter Verhoeven: What is meant by \"Bubbles of Nothing\"?
Dr Michio Kaku: Boiling water is a purely quantum mechanical event. If water molecules were like billiard balls, water would never boil. Water boils and a tiny fluctuation occurs in water. Similarly, universes maybe created all the time, even as we speak, due to fluctuation in Nothing. In other words, universes maybe for free and Big Bangs, happen all the time like in boiling water.

Peter Wentworth: What are the possibilities for a second Big Bang collision? Is it theoretically possible?
Dr Michio Kaku: There is some speculation that gamma-ray bursters release the greatest amount s of energy since the Big Bang. There is some speculation that they maybe powerful enough to open a hole in our bubble Universe, so that our Universe buds into two universes, creating a baby universe which leaves the mother universe. However, until M-Theory becomes better understood we cannot prove that baby universes can be created from our Universe.

John Reyes: Dr Kaku, how can one travel in time when time does not exist? And if it did, would you know which way to point your ship?
Dr Michio Kaku: Time is like a river. It bends and flows around the Universe. Time may also have whirlpools and also may fork into two rivers. In this way, time travel might be possible. However, you have to have the Plank energy to create a time machine or the energy of a Black Hole. That is far beyond our technology.

Dr: Do eleven dimensions mean there are other life forms of any kind?
Dr Michio Kaku: We do not know if life-forms can exist in another dimension. However, atoms as we know them may not be stable in other dimensions. If we replace Newton's Inverse square law with an inverse tube law then solar systems and atoms fall apart. However, new forms of matter may exist in higher dimensions.

Viva Wright: Is there the possibility that unconscious knowledge is transferred between universes?
Dr Michio Kaku: At the present time, physicist believe that consciousness is confined to the human brain so telepathy between universes may not be possible. However, the problem of consciousness in a quantum-theory is still an unresolved problem. M-Theory is still a quantum-theory.

Nick Rimmington Do you think this theory may explain why the rate of expansion of the universe is increasing?
Dr Michio Kaku: Nobody knows how to calculate dark energy which is causing the Universe to accelerate. The best hope is M-Theory, but no-one knows how to solve M-Theory or the Big Bang. Maybe one of the viewers of this programme will be inspired to use M-Theory to explain the accelerating Universe.

Adam Kirsch: If space is the 5th dimension what are the 6th or 7th?
Dr Michio Kaku: If the fifth dimension vibrates, then ripples on the fifth dimension are visible as light. If the other dimensions vibrate, then the ripples are seen as the nuclear force, so the forces of the universe can be viewed as ripples in hyper-space.

Christopher Sayer: Can a new membrane be created from two membranes colliding?
Dr Michio Kaku: When two membranes or two strings collide, they create new membranes and new string. The diagrams which tell us how membranes and strings collide are like the Feynman diagrams that we see in quantum-theory. Our bodies are symphonies of vibrating strings and membranes. The Chemistry of our body is a consequence of the collision of these membranes and strings.

Simon Lawrence: If the Universe is constantly expanding, when does this sign the end of our known Universe?
Dr Michio Kaku: Our Universe will die in ice rather than fire. Our Universe eventually, trillions and trillions of years away from now, will reach near absolute zero making intelligent life impossible. Therefore, we may have to escape into hyper-space if we are to survive the death of the Universe.

Tom Brown: In theory, is it possible to use the space between the Universes, leaving and re-entering, in order to travel many light years within our Universe, but without time having passed?
Dr Michio Kaku: Einstein's equations give us a possibility to leap into hyper-space through a worm-hole to reach another universe. However, we don't have enough energy to open up such a hole and we don't know how stable such a hole might be.

Brian Whaley: If time has only one dimension how can one deal with the issue of how \"fast\" time passes - and the difference between \"time of day\" and time as duration?
Dr Michio Kaku: M-Theory is only mathematically consistent with one dimension of time and ten dimensions of space. M-Theory is mathematically inconsistent for any other combination.

Sam Jenkins: if our Universe is contained within a \"bubble\", what makes up the surface?
Dr Michio Kaku: The surface of this bubble is the Universe itself. People often ask where did the Big Bang take place? The Big Bang did not take place on the surface of the bubble, it took place inside the bubble, i.e. in hyper-space.

Phil Williams: What is hyper-space?
Dr Michio Kaku: Hyper-space is space beyond three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Historically, scientists thought that hyper-space could not exist, now we believe that in hyper-space there is enough room to unify all fundamental forces. Four dimensions of space time are too small to unify the four fundamental forces

Chris Norrie: Do you believe in infinity?
Dr Michio Kaku: There are many types of infinity. The age of our universe may increase without limit because our universe is accelerating. In space, however, our universe may be finite in hyper-space but infinite in three dimension just like a bubble. So the farthest object in the universe would be the back of your head.

Patrick Clarke: Are there infinite particles with the same x,y,z & time values as those in my body?
Dr Michio Kaku: Well, in M-Theory there are an infinite number of particles. Each one represents a musical note on a string or membrane, so the atoms of our body are like those of a string. Chemistry is the melodies on these membranes and the universe is a symphony of vibrating membranes and string.

William Joseph: Does M-theory say anything about the idea that the speed of light in our universe may be slowing down?
Dr Michio Kaku: M-Theory reproduces all of Einstein's theory and more. Therefore, the speed of light in a vacuum never changes.

Tony Hall: Does ?string theory</a> incorporate number theory in its structure?
Dr Michio Kaku: String theory</a> has gobbled up many branches of Mathematics which has astounded mathematicians. However, there is one branch of Mathematics that seems beyond the reach of string theory</a> which is number theory. For example, we do not find Fermat's last theorem in string theory</a>.

Jean: Could black holes be routes from our Universe to the other parallel universes? Could than be why nothing comes out of them?
Dr Michio Kaku: Yes, there is a theory that says that universes may have children, via a budding process in which a universe splits into two smaller universes. However this is just a theory, and we will have to wait until M-Theory is further developed to decide whether universes can have children.

Patrick Clarke: Is the Big Bang where all eleven dimensions have a value of zero?
Dr Michio Kaku: In one solution of M-Theory, our Universe is a four-dimensional ball floating in eleven dimensions. In the other seven dimensions, there could be other bubbles floating. One theory says that the nearest bubble to our Universe maybe one millimetre away from us. This theory will be tested in Geneva in a few more years.

Nigel: Does the rate of vibration of membranes offer a possible connection between them?
Dr Michio Kaku: Large membranes may resemble universes like our own floating in eleven dimensional hyper-space. However, tiny membranes can be viewed as subatomic particles whose vibration and interaction give us the laws of Chemistry. Therefore M-Theory unifies subatomic particles and universes.

Trici Shaw: What is the \"F\" from F-Theory?
Dr Michio Kaku: F for F-Theory stands for Father. M for M-Theory may stand for Mother, Mystery or Membrane.

Alan Trevitt: If universes are parallel to each other, why does gravity run in only one direction i.e., downwards?
Dr Michio Kaku: Gravity is caused by the working of space time. Therefore, if we have two bubbles close to each other they will distort the space time surrounding them and feel each others gravity. Therefore, dark matter may be the presence of a neighbouring universe that we cannot see.

Alex Greybrook: How was hyper space discovered?
Dr Michio Kaku: The Greeks tried to prove 2000 years ago that hyper-space was impossible. However, Vernhard Riemann proved in the 1870s that hyper-space was possible. Then Kaluza in 1921 showed that universes may exist in hyper-space.

Richie Lunt: Although atoms are stable in our dimension would this be this case in others?
Dr Michio Kaku: Atoms in other dimensions may be unstable because the inverse square law does not hold. However, two forms of stable matter may exist in hyper universes, which are not based on atoms. But, physicists do not know any more than this.

Funky Monkey: Why are the other parallel universe's membranes different shapes. Shouldn't they be the same? Does what happens on the inside effects the universe's physical shape?
Dr Michio Kaku: Membranes can come in many sizes and many shapes. For example, a zerobrane is a particle, a onebrane is a string, a twobrane may be a membrane and a threebrane maybe a universe.

Zhou Fang: M-Theory may be shown to be mathematically possible, but would we ever be able to prove that it is actually the case?
Dr Michio Kaku: Experimentally, we hope to find super particles in the next few years with our atom-smashers. However, I believe that if we are smart enough we could solve the theory and then derive all the laws of Chemistry and Physics. That to me would be a proof that M-Theory is correct. So, those experiments are not really necessary. Theory is enough.

Ross Campbell: Where did the energy required to produce membranes in the first instance come from?
Dr Michio Kaku: The amount of energy necessary to create a bubbled universe is zero. Matter has positive energy, but gravity has negative energy. The sum of the two might be zero. This means that bubbled universes can be created all the time. So the Universe is for free.

Kevin Wan: If the fabric of the Universe is being stretched, does this also mean that the membrane is also being stretched? If so, when will the stretching cease?
Dr Michio Kaku: In one theory, our Universe is a membrane. We live on the skin of this membrane which is constantly expanding because of dark energy. We think this expansion is accelerating and may go on for ever without limit.

Pimmy: Have any major \"flaws\" or \"gaps\" been found in M-theory so far which makes it unable to explain something?
Dr Michio Kaku: So far, M-Theory has withstood every mathematical challenge. In the past, previous attempts at a theory of everything could be shown to be mathematically inconsistent. M-Theory is the only theory which seems to be mathematically consistent. However, there are many solutions to M-Theory, one of which may be our Universe. No-one has found that one solution yet.

Adrian: I've heard that in other universes time might flow backwards! Is this true?
Dr Michio Kaku: Not long ago, Stephen Hawking thought that time may go backwards. If the Universe pulsated then during the contraction he thought that time might run backward. However, he has since admitted that he was wrong. Therefore, most physicists do not believe that time will reverse itself in our Universe. If there are time machines, you might be able to reverse time in a small area, but not for the entire Universe.

Trekkie: Is there a possibility of a 12th dimension?
Dr Michio Kaku: In F-Theory the physicists at Harvard University have proposed a universe with two-times, so that you would have to have two watches on your wrist to tell you what time it is. However, most physicists today do not take F-Theory seriously although it seems compatible with M-Theory. This is still a mystery.

Rob Wood: How does M-theory explain quantum entanglement - is it via the collapsed dimensions?
Dr Michio Kaku: Quantum entanglement is a problem for all quantum theories including M-Theory. Quantum entanglement says that the Universe is non-local and that information may travel faster than light,. However, no useful information can be sent faster than light by means of quantum entanglement so there are no paradoxes in time.

Bernard Hunt: Is time just the human awareness; a thing that isn't really a dimension?
Dr Michio Kaku: Space time is an arena on which matter can exist. Therefore, time is a co-ordinate that measures the passing or evolution of an object. Some people have said that time does not exist, which confuses the perception of time with time as a co-ordinate on this arena.

Max Guglia: Apart from empirical speculation, what could be the benefits for humanity of proving the M-Theory?
Dr Michio Kaku: In the short term, nothing. But when Newton worked out the Force of Gravity, he helped to set into motion the industrial revolution. When Faraday worked out electricity and magnetism he set into motion the electric age. When Einstein wrote down E=MC2 he unleashed the nuclear age. Now, we are on the verge of a theory of all forces which may, one day, determine the fate of the human species. Centuries from now, M-Theory, I feel, may eventually determine the destiny of all intelligent life in the Universe. Horizon Host: Here's our special guest with a final word:
Dr Michio Kaku: I am proud to be part of this BBC documentary, on the cutting edge of my field - M-Theory. It is absolutely essential that scientists speak to the public about the exciting and revolutionary developments rocking the foundations of modern Physics. Hopefully, one of you viewers will be inspired by this programme to become a physicist, who will eventually complete the M-Theory and answer questions like: 'Is time travel possible?' 'Can we journey to another dimension?' and 'What happened before The Big Bang?'

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I would love to sit down and talk to Michio Kaku for hours and hours. I'm sure I'd never be able to talk or ask enough questions, but he's definitely got some interesting points.

Nice goin' Darkbreed. I can't believe no one's read it yet?

Here's the link to what Darkbreed posted...

timetravelforum.net

 

[Dulux]

Sorry Lagnar, ahead of time, I kind of skimmed through the first message.

I actually talked about this awhile ago...

But I know it's only a theory, and I've come up with a new one recently, that the universe isn't actually expanding, but space itself is... if you believe the illusion haha. Every element created from stars, after they explode, only get smaller, and therefore humans could 6ft tall in this solar system- the star explodes, then humans colonize that space, and are like 3ft tall compared to what they used to be- BUT in their world, they measure themselves as 6ft tall. know what I mean? As in, size is actually irrelevant, and the space is so endless that it only exists in a speck. hahaha confusing. But I could go all day on these wild theories. Basically though, if the universe isn't exploding and imploding like a beat, then it's constantly exploding and getting smaller and smaller, only to spread out farther and farther for ever, with out any way of telling if space itself is actually expanding at all, and everything is just staying the same size in what appears to be an illusion of size. o_0 yea... I just lost myself on that one... -Just a theory though, nothing believed.

 

[dave11]

i dont believe anything is expanding , if it was there would have to be something outside of the universe in order for the exspansion to take place , another universe ,within a universe perhaps ,i think its an endless void ...