Bedtime for Democracy

[Zoomerz]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

Below is an extract from the "legislation" enacted by congress allowing the feds to review the Schaivo case:

SEC. 7. NO PRECEDENT FOR FUTURE LEGISLATION.

Nothing in this Act shall constitute a precedent with respect to future legislation, including the provision of private relief bills.

The entire legislation can be viewed at:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo.../bill31905.html

I might be misreading that Sec 7 reduces the chance that this case can set precedent? Paul?

Z-

 

[StarLord]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

If I may, I feel that Jedi has come up with the answer that we are seeking. That would be the immediate euthanisia of ALL non productive politicians. Good for the country, good for you and good for me.

Who knows, it is possible that a good percentage would never know that they had been euthanised in the first place. If their track records are any indication for being good for something, or good for nothing.

Putting the 'walking dead' out of OUR misery is a good thing.

 

[Grayson]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"JediStryker\")</div>

Dammit, Michael Schiavo is NOT interested in the dignity of his wife!

Michael Schiavo is 6\'-3\\" tall and weighs 250-pounds. Here is reported evidence of abuse concerning Terri: Terri\'s medical records show multiple broken bones. When she collapsed in 1990 he failed to perform CPR. He has had her medical records sealed -- even from Terri\'s parents. Seven months after receiving $1.3-million for Terri\'s medical care, Michael prohibited antibiotics for infection which could have killed Terri (1993 & 1995). Despite medical records and witness reports that Terri is responsive, Michael has not allowed therapy since receiving the cash. He has prevented swallowing tests, despite medical testimony that Terri can be taught to eat. Ordered caretakers not to clean Terri\'s teeth (five teeth removed in 2004). Since 2000, refuses to allow Terri to leave her room. Refuses to fix her wheelchair. Orders the window shades down at all times in Terri\'s room, denying natural sunlight. Removed family photos from Terri\'s room, denies flowers, won\'t allow her to hear music. Won\'t allow visitors unless approved by him. Denied visits by her parents for eight-months. Denies all requests for Terri to attend nursing home functions and refuses to allow therapeutic animals to visit, knowing she is an animal lover.[/b]

I NEVER said that he was... I was implying that his may not be the tale we side with, but can we still countenance the interference of Government at this level.

 

[PyRo99]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

Its like the Wheel of Fortune with the United States Government, you never know when they'll spin but they always win.Let us remeber Mrs. Shiviao, but never forget. For she is being used as but another stepping stone for the United States Government to take over America. Only this time, they've used the smoke and mirrors of the Emotion set. Cry away, I'm not indifferent for the situation, but personally it is NOT Congress's role to decide whether or not the woman should live.

Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, clearly Micheal is impeding upon this. However, it is not the United States Government desicion to impede upon the States'. Let us not be reminded of our history, the Articles of Confederation. Even when we ratified the Constitution, we were still uneasy about the Government poessing too much power, and what is apparent now?

It seems as though we've reverted back to a Monarchy. However were under the illusion that we are a democracy, and we strive to fight for our freedoms. Meanwhile, while soldiers die we're losing those liberties on the home front. But, you know we've gotta catch those damned terrorists, at whatever costs.

Does this mean that I can go plead to Congress for them to intervene in the courts for whichever matter? This is a STATE matter, not a Capital Hill's judgement. I don't care what you say, it isn't Congress's matter. CONGRESS, is the Branch of Goverment called the LEGISTLATIVE branch. They CREATE the Laws. Are we in need of a United States Government class? It is the Judiciary Branch to INTERPRET the Laws, and the Executive to INFORCE the laws.

Everyone is greedy, hell everyone needs money now-a-days. You need money for everything, Terri Schivao is a lost case, I'm sorry. 10 years on a feeding tube in hopes of a medical miracle? I would let her cross over, lord knows shes better off there. Who da hell would want to sit through a freakin' World War? Given the chance I'd take the cross over, but its not my turn.

She should be put out of her misery. Would you rather he have to go back to Micheal?

EDIT: What I said I said to you in private. Keep it that way. -Jedi

Pyro

 

[sosuemetoo]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Zoomerz\")</div>

I might be misreading that Sec 7 reduces the chance that this case can set precedent? Paul?

Z-[/b]

Zoomer,

I'm not Paul and he might have a different opinion. I read Section 7 and have read many opinions regarding this.

The way I understand this, this is for Terri only. This isn't a test case, this is a case with many questions. We have a woman who cannot speak for herself, a husband that is suspect, and two loving parents who want their child to live. Time has run out for this woman. Time is against her.

Mom

 

[vinny]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

Hi all ,I work in a hospital. I have seem first hand people in vegitative states. You have a very poor idea of the morals and motives of staff in institutions. That crack about wanting a feeding tube because staff are too lazy to feed the woman was the last straw. Doctors and caregivers do not work in isolation. This woman has been hospitalized for many years. If there was any hope of her recovery the medical staff would not be following the husbands wishes. She would aspirate ,if food was feed to her by mouth (go into the lungs) All that is happening is a prolonged dying process is being played out. Give credit to the staff. This woman has recieved excellent care or she would not be alive after 15 years. Families can be quite dilusional , and see what they want to see. A little twitch that is just randon movement takes on a significance to them. Do I think her husband is not a nice guy, who knows. Is the reaction of the family members involved unusual. You betcha. There is some big time guilt going on here and the welfare of the patient has nothing to do with it. In my experience very disfuncitonal people act like the family members involved here. Too bad everyone is getting sucked into this mess.

 

[JediStryker]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

Vinny,

In this case, there is serious evidence that the husband does NOT have the best interest of his spouse in mind. I would normally defer to your experience in this issue, however, I have read so much that indicates that Terri is NOT in a PVS that I seriously question the facts in this issue.

Normally I would also defer to the courts judgement, as they tend to know more than we do in these cases. However, again, there is so much information being disseminated in this issue that points to the parents being right here that I am going to err on the side of life.

 

[sosuemetoo]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

Vinny, I was hoping that someone in the medical field would post in two threads we have going regarding Terri

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"vinny\")</div>

If there was any hope of her recovery the medical staff would not be following the husbands wishes.[/b]

I went through the depositions in this case. The way I understand, as soon as Michael received the settlement, he moved Terri to a hospice facility. Before her move, she was able to take "babyfood and liquids" by mouth. As soon as she was moved to hospice, Michael ordered the feeding tube.

At that time, could the medical staff fight Michael on this? Would they have gone against his wishes?

Also, after the move to hospice, Michael cancelled all speech and physical therapy. Would the staff had gone against his wishes and done it anyway?

After the move to hospice, Michael demanded that windows be closed and Terri not be taken out of her room. Would the staff gone against his wishes and done it anyway?

I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

 

[Zoomerz]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

Sosuemetoo;

The way I understand this, this is for Terri only. This isn't a test case, this is a case with many questions. We have a woman who cannot speak for herself, a husband that is suspect, and two loving parents who want their child to live. Time has run out for this woman. Time is against her.

First of all, I really do sympathize with the parents in this case. What parent wants to see their child die? For that matter, what loving husband does? I have spent the better part of 3 days listening to BOTH sides of this debate, and yes, it certainly is a complex situation.

While true that Terri cannot speak for herself NOW, in the eyes of the Forida state court, 19 judges....let me say that again, 19 judges....painfully heard the merits of this case. 19 judges heard EVERY testimony from EVERY witness. We have not. Not you, not me, not any of the posters on this forum....

In all 19 cases the judges rulings were the same. In the court's eyes, enough testimony corroborated the fact that Terri's desire was that she not be kept alive in this state. I hear much talk that "we don't know what Terri wants, so....". Well, the fact is, we DO know, through exhaustive testimony.

There are 2 reasons we don't want to believe that she wants to die. First, the husband's "motives" are very questionable (although in another sense, so are the parent's MHO), and secondly, our "pro-life" beliefs lead us to question a person's right to die at all.

Today I heard an interview with the court-appointed medical advocate for Terri during 12 of the 15 years this has been going on. He spent *countless* hours with her, at her bedside, and his explicit function was to determine whether or not she was a) truly in a VS (vegitative state), B) was responsive to ANY stimulous (not reflexive, but reactive), and c) showed ANY signs of improvement over time. His answer in each case was no. He is also well aware of the parent's hopes, and feels their *hopes* and *love* for her have led them to a "whatever it takes to keep her alive" posture. They have misinterpreted her reflexive actions as responsive, in an attempt to hold on. Personally, having gone through something similar twice (once with my 8 month old son, and more recently with my Father), I can easily see that happening.

Now please don't misunderstand me, I am pro-life, and believe in the absense of having the expressed desire of Terri, we should (as Bush suggests), "err on the side of life". However, the court (again after exhaustive testimony), has determined that IT WAS TERRI'S WISH NOT TO LIVE IN THIS CONDITION. All 19 judges sided NOT WITH THE HUSBAND, but with Terri, and ruled in favor of honoring HER wishes. Unfortunately, because many people feel the husband is being opportunistic and has selfish motives, that the court's decision is "siding" with him. That just isn't the case if you look at the decisions themselves.

Now comes the Congress, politicizing and legislating where they don't belong. Setting a precedent that is sure to be repeated as necessary. Of all of this, I believe this part to be the most vile. Which one of you truly believes any member of Congress gives a rat's a** about Terri Schaivo? No. They are politicizing simply to enhance their own political agendas. All this "moral high ground", it's good to be seen on the conservative side of things these days isn't it? Makes me sick to my stomach. I'm with Paul, impeach them all, and let's start over.

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded SoSueMeToo, and I understand your feelings. As far as the 7th section, I've come to find out that these "individualized" laws are quite common. Laws that apply only to individuals or groups of individuals. For the life of me, I can't remember the name given to them. However, precedent certainly can, and does get set when they occur, and this is not good. Not good at all.

MHO, and sympathies to Terri's family. I think they should honor the opinions of everyone that has been directly involved in the decision process up until now, and let her go. It is her wish to go.

Z-

 

[JediStryker]

Re: Bedtime for Democracy

Today I heard an interview with the court-appointed medical advocate for Terri during 12 of the 15 years this has been going on. He spent *countless* hours with her, at her bedside, and his explicit function was to determine whether or not she was a) truly in a VS (vegitative state), B) was responsive to ANY stimulous (not reflexive, but reactive), and c) showed ANY signs of improvement over time. His answer in each case was no. He is also well aware of the parent's hopes, and feels their *hopes* and *love* for her have led them to a \"whatever it takes to keep her alive\" posture. They have misinterpreted her reflexive actions as responsive, in an attempt to hold on. Personally, having gone through something similar twice (once with my 8 month old son, and more recently with my Father), I can easily see that happening.

If this is the case, then I would go back to my original stance. I think it's something between a husband and his wife and no one else. I also, then, am frustrated by this use of Congressional power to circumvent judiciary findings, as that is something that Republicans have been frustrated about for years but vice versa; liberal judges legislating from the bench.