Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

[dancho]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

Originally posted by StarLord@Dec 3 2004, 04:12 PM

dancho,

Agreed on the victimless crime part. What did you have in mind about those that refuse to respond like adults? I am interested in what you think should be done. You can't have just one party being responsible.

​

I don't have any kind of problem with Christian morality. The words of Jesus ring out to us over the centuries. But there are always a bunch of nasty barbarians, just over the horizon, waiting for us to "drop our guard." So what, then, must we do? The only path that holds any hope is to retain our human values and agree to honor the dignity of every human being (even the bad ones) and resist the impulse to engage in Roman-type revenge and brutality. Every person must sacrifice (financially, at least) to build a society in which the idea of "rights" is understood as intended by the founding fathers-- to extend to every person in the interest of mitigating the power of an otherwise all-powerful government. We must temper our legal system with mercy. Otherwise, we may as well just give up and become like the worst of the criminals-- not a society at all, but just the biggest and baddest gang in a world of gangsters. This is not easy but oceans of blood cry out to us from the past. This is our obligation to our children-- not to merely keep them "safe" but to be truly just and not give in to hate. Our children will damn us if we hand them a world where the rule of the iron fist has been emplaced and where the true teachings of the great spiritual masters have been cast aside out of fear. The truly heroic path into the future will lead us to surrender some of our safety in the interest of freedom and in the interest of justice. If we try to hold on to our "safety" with blood-thirsty intensity we will, eventually, end up in a state of collapse, with no "safety" at all.

 

[Darkwolf]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

I don't have any kind of problem with Christian morality. The words of Jesus ring out to us over the centuries. But there are always a bunch of nasty barbarians, just over the horizon, waiting for us to \"drop our guard.\"

The problem here Dansho is that there really are barbarians over the horizion. If we do drop our guards, they will kill us. That simple. I say that we should go over the horizion and kill them first.

Every person must sacrifice (financially, at least) to build a society in which the idea of \"rights\" is understood as intended by the founding fathers-- to extend to every person in the interest of mitigating the power of an otherwise all-powerful government. We must temper our legal system with mercy.

I agree, however rights and mercy don't mean that you don't punish criminals. The crime rates in this country only started to skyrocket when we went from thinking of punishment to thinking of "rehabilitation". Rehabing criminals simply doesn't work, sometimes punishment does if it is immediate and a real penelty.

 

[dancho]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Dec 3 2004, 07:14 PM
I agree, however rights and mercy don't mean that you don't punish criminals. The crime rates in this country only started to skyrocket when we went from thinking of punishment to thinking of \"rehabilitation\". Rehabing criminals simply doesn't work, sometimes punishment does if it is immediate and a real penelty.

​

C.S. Lewis was a proponent of the Christian argument that "punishment" (like flogging) upheld human dignity since it maintained that the individual criminal should "pay a debt" for committing a crime. He preferred this approach to "humanitarianism" where the criminal is treated as a "sick" person and looses his or her "rights." Lewis argued that the only way for a person to be a criminal and to maintain their dignity was to be punished (aka "scourged") and thereby "pay what they owe" as a free person, with a free will. This, and other medieval notions are "near and dear" to the hearts of many people who are not really familiar with the "great debate" that got rid of public flogging and the other such devices.

I'm finally beginning to come to an understanding about what I have been reading-- coming from a variety of people all over the internet. It's saying that the "old ways" are best. It's a call for a return to a more medieval way of life. A desire to abandon the modern and return to a simpler time when things were rough but certain, and God ruled in His heaven.

I'm not sure that I disagree with this. When I was in the military, they tried to avoid the "chew 'em out" school of old-time, brown shoe discipline. They used the "humanitarian approach" and I must say that it did not work very well. I would tend to agree with Lewis and with Darkwolf (if I understand you correctly) that there is a loss of dignity associated with being declared "malfunctioning" (as opposed to just plain bad) and I would tend to agree that a correctional system based upon payment for crime and forgiveness of debt upon such payment sounds pretty appealing.

So I think that we agree, in a way. (Everyone sing Cumbaya!)

It's just that Lewis and the Christian tradition absolutely insist that the rights of a criminal be respected, and the whole point of "paying one's debt" to society is to restore the criminal to full citizenship, because forgiveness is the foundation of Christianity and and someone who "pays for their crime" is forgiven.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a medieval "punishment" AND loss of rights. "Loss of rights" is part of the modern, humanitarian system wherein criminals are treated like "sick people" and rehabilitation is the goal. "Punishment" is part of the old tradition where the dignity of the individual is upheld in order to facilitate the salvation of said individual.

An approach where people are stripped of their rights, dignity, physical safety and punished forever is just cruel and sadistic. Of course, if that's what's you're into, then keep in mind that if you "sow the wind you'll reap the whirlwind."


Here's a link:

http://members.aol.com/plweiss1/crime.htm

... and a quote from Hunter S. Thompson:

"This may be the year when we finally come face to face with ourselves; finally just lay back and say it -- that we are really just a nation of 220 million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns, and no qualms at all about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable."

Hunter S. Thompson
Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail
November 1972

 

[Mai]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

In the past year, I've had the opportunity to visit several civilian and military prisons over here. I think the system is in a sort of limbo. They say they want to rehabilitate the convicts, and that's why they have all these social workers and addiction specialists and educational programs. On the other hand, they don't make sure the convicts make use of these opportunities, or monitor their condition while in prison.

Most correctional systems in the West say they want to "rehabilitate" the prisoners, but they don't go all the way. Personally, I believe that criminals need a multi-disciplinary, structred treatment program to even have a chance at re-integrating into society (I'm talking about real criminals here, not some kid who smoked MJ and wound up behind bars) and becoming "reformed citizens". But I have yet to see one prison system in which the administration really give the prisoners everything they need to change. Instead, tehy get stuck half way between the "punishment" and the "rehabilitation" approaches.

I think the punishment method may be appropriate for smaller crimes and the smaller criminals. But those with criminal careers need either a real, decent treatment program, or a life-long "punishment". Doing both will only lead to failure and recidivism, as it does now.

I like the idea of making prisons self-sufficient. It would take the load off of the government (or at least most of that load) and it ma benefit the convicts, beyond the obvious benefits of having food to eat and clothes to wear.

StarLord: You asked about the conditions in foreign prisons. here, the main problem is overcrowding. Since Oct. 2000, the prison system has been flooded with "national security prisoners"-- Arab-Israelis and Palestinians who have been arrested for terrorist activities. Many prison units have been convered into "security units". In each and every one of the prisons I visited, there were always some prisoners who had to sleep on a mattress on the floor because there just wasn't enough room. Hygiene is also pretty bad. Prisoners here seem to be able to keep more personal property in their cells than in other countries (based on what I know), and they can also cook in their cells if they get permission. If you have anymore questions about the prison system here, feel free to ask.

 

[fishmonger]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

Originally posted by Timmy G@Dec 2 2004, 01:51 AM
I would be interested to hear input on this topic. The thread is about Civil Rights Enforcement. On the other side of the coin, this post is about how our government is going too far in violating them.

There appear to be many intelligent ppl on board here - if anyone can (or cares to ) help me out here; Don't the same rules, which apply to people being held for war crimes also apply to US citizens ~ via ~ the Patriot Act?

The stance that John Asscroft has taken is that if they prisoners aren't in the US, they have no constitutional rights, i.e. Guantanamo Bay.

As to intelligence, the entire focus of the Bush Admin is ignorance, fear, racism, and homophobia. Intelligence has no place in what is going on.

 

[Jesus_Bush]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

This country is getting more ridiculous by the minute ..


When the two plainclothes Loudoun County sheriff's investigators showed up on her Leesburg doorstep, Pamela Albaugh got nervous. But when they told her why they were there, she got angry: A complaint had been filed alleging that her 11-year old son had made "anti-American and violent" statements in school.

"It was intimidating," she said. "I told them it's like a George Orwell novel, that it felt like they were the thought police. If someone would have asked me five years ago if this was something my government would do, I would have said never."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer

 

[StarLord]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

The quicker they coral all those seditious 11 year old scofflaws and set them straight, the sooner this country becomes more confused than it was ever thought possible.

I myself have been keeping an eye on several 8 year olds at the local supermarket, there is just no telling where their covetous glances at the bubblegum machines will lead to.

 

[dancho]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

America. R.I.P.

How's that? :devil:

 

[Jesus_Bush]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?...=localnews&om=1



Coming soon to Howard County: 24-hour video surveillance cameras in public places, monitored by the county police.

"There's a real big brother aspect to it," said Stacey Mink, development director for the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland. "There's something creepy about being looked at all the time."

"We think security cameras don't really provide an extra measure of security," she said. "And they are an attack on privacy rights."





http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-1...l-id-card_x.htm


Legislation sets stage for uniform driver's licenses
By Donna Leinwand, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON ? The anti-terrorism bill to be signed by President Bush on Friday opens the door for people across the nation to have similar driver's licenses, a plan that is fueling a debate over whether security concerns will lead to what amounts to a national identification card.

 

[Timescholar]

Bush Admin Lax on Civil Rights Enforcement

I live in Baltimore (which already has the said cameras). I don't feel any different, since I'm not doing anything wrong. It's those who are doing things like robbing banks, or assaulting people that need to be worried.