Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

[StarLord]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

Don't forget, we DO have someone in our midst, Darkbreed, who is going to do just that in either central america or south america, I can not remember which. I believe he is going to continue his Fathers work concerning Atlantis and Hidden Pyramids in the mountains there. Sure wish I could go, sounds like an adventure of a lifetime and a real good way to loose 25 lbs wether you want to or not.

 

[Harte]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"gl100\")</div>

As you say, the vimanas are a very interesting collection of stories and the mythology is intriguing to say the least. Within the texts there may indeed be glimpses into ancient technology. The problem is that much of what is written about these texts is framed within current 20th century interpretations provided by self-promoting pseudo-researchers such as Cremo and Van Daniken. I have also noticed that there is some doubt as to the antiquity and authenticity of some of the manuscripts.[/b]

I must agree completely with you here. If the stories in the Vimanas described actual events, it would be (to say the least) astounding. I have not heard of any of the manuscripts being in dispute or under any doubt regarding antiquity though. They do place Man on Earth in the millions of years. This would be enough of a problem for me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"gl100\")</div>

Have you come across any sites that discuss the manuscripts in their proper context and without all of the hype and misinformation associated with the ?Atlantis is rising on the shoulders of a crystal skulled Elohin channeling lizard god? crowd? [/b]

I have come across several sites that debunk Cremo and his pard. I really haven't looked into the Vimanas much myself. They are only ancient writings and there's (so far) not much of a movement toward "proving" their literal truth. So much more (other) poppycock is out there with charlatans raking in the dough, supposedly "proving" this or that about the high-tech ancients that I don't put much effort into the Vimanas. There are enough real fires of idiocy out there that need to be extinguished. Also, like you say, it is sometimes hard to research this stuff on the internet. Almost all the scholarly info on the Vimanas that's out there comes, of course, from Hindu scholars. The sources themselves must also be researched, as is shown by the connection between Cremo and the International Society for Krishna consciousness which you so graciously supplied to us.

BTW gl100, have you read my post on the Annunaki on the Conspiracy Cafe site? There are some very useful links in my post to websites some of which contain useful links themselves. I'm not getting much response there. I'll probably end up putting it over here too.

Harte

 

[Harte]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>

Don't forget, we DO have someone in our midst, Darkbreed, who is going to do just that in either central america or south america, I can not remember which. I believe he is going to continue his Fathers work concerning Atlantis and Hidden Pyramids in the mountains there. Sure wish I could go, sounds like an adventure of a lifetime and a real good way to loose 25 lbs wether you want to or not.[/b]

I guess I missed that from Darkbreed. I know he is mightily knowledgeable on the mesoamerican past. I'm sure he will do well.

Harte

 

[gl100]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

BTW gl100, have you read my post on the Annunaki on the Conspiracy Cafe site? There are some very useful links in my post to websites some of which contain useful links themselves. I'm not getting much response there. I'll probably end up putting it over here too.

Harte,

Had the opportunity to read your Annunaki material.Truly an outstanding post. I have always been amazed at the ability of people like Sitchin and Van Daniken to reap fame and reward from theories based on dubious research and ludicrous conclusions. I truly believe we are reaching a point where historical research is lauded not for its analytical insight but rather for the ?courage? to fly in the face of conventional wisdom. Truth is no longer the benchmark by which to judge these works. They are judged simply on the innovative way these ?researchers? achieve their acrobatic leaps of logic. No span is too great and no chasm is too vast for these people to overcome. If there is no historical or scientific bridge, build one. Their objective is to get from one side of an argument to another. How the bridge is constructed is of no consequence. I had a welder that used to work for me years ago. His philosophy was ?If you can walk across it, I can weld it!? While it was a confident statement full of admirable determination, I found it rooted in very questionable judgment. This is the pervasive philosophy I see in the works of these so-called researchers. Contrived, erroneous data can fill a logical gap as efficiently and certainly quicker than tedious empirical data. It is the conclusion that most will remember anyway. How you get there is of no consequence.

The more incredulous your claim, the less you have to rely on providing actual proof. Throw the reader some out of context, historical data and you have a disciple for life. Look at the current furor over the Da Vinci Code. Put the words fact on the flyleaf and you too can spawn an entire sub-culture and cottage industry devoted to your works. Incredible.

Empirical research is no longer the coin of the realm. Reminds me of a comedian I heard years ago who said it amazed him how KISS could have 10,000 groupies and yet Jonas Salk probably couldn?t get laid.

 

[Harte]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"gl100\")</div>

Harte,

Had the opportunity to read your Annunaki material.Truly an outstanding post. I have always been amazed at the ability of people like Sitchin and Van Daniken to reap fame and reward from theories based on dubious research and ludicrous conclusions. I truly believe we are reaching a point where historical research is lauded not for its analytical insight but rather for the ?courage? to fly in the face of conventional wisdom. Truth is no longer the benchmark by which to judge these works. They are judged simply on the innovative way these ?researchers? achieve their acrobatic leaps of logic. No span is too great and no chasm is too vast for these people to overcome. If there is no historical or scientific bridge, build one. Their objective is to get from one side of an argument to another. How the bridge is constructed is of no consequence. I had a welder that used to work for me years ago. His philosophy was ?If you can walk across it, I can weld it!? While it was a confident statement full of admirable determination, I found it rooted in very questionable judgment. This is the pervasive philosophy I see in the works of these so-called researchers. Contrived, erroneous data can fill a logical gap as efficiently and certainly quicker than tedious empirical data. It is the conclusion that most will remember anyway. How you get there is of no consequence.

The more incredulous your claim, the less you have to rely on providing actual proof. Throw the reader some out of context, historical data and you have a disciple for life. Look at the current furor over the Da Vinci Code. Put the words fact on the flyleaf and you too can spawn an entire sub-culture and cottage industry devoted to your works. Incredible.

Empirical research is no longer the coin of the realm. Reminds me of a comedian I heard years ago who said it amazed him how KISS could have 10,000 groupies and yet Jonas Salk probably couldn?t get laid.[/b]

gl100,
A well thought out and well stated post. But please don't be so pessimistic. I think you're into this pseudohistory too deep. Ordinary people don't spend their days online posting reptilian overlord crystal skull crap. That is why most of the sites you see appear to assume that everybody believes this sort of trash out of hand and matter-of-factly. The average Joe doesn't give one whit one way or the other and the average Joseph (the educated average Joe) laughs at it. Scientists have neither the time nor the resources necessary to debunk things that shouldn't even be considered true on the face of it. I suspect that you are like me, angry to have once been misled by the Sitchens and VonDanikens of the world, and trying to strike back. Most of the people (IMO) that spend time trying to undo the damage pseudohistorians do fall into this class, or are archaeologists without grants.

Harte

 

[shane]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Harte\")</div>

archaeologists without grants. [/b]

So the overwhelming majority of archaeologists fit into this category, then.

 

[shane]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

Please forgive me for the unspecific nature of my previous comments. I was unsure of whether it would be wise to divulge the source of my information, as knowledge of that source could dissuade others from seriously looking into the questions I raise. I see now that, regardless of the consequences, I must ascribe credit to the source.

About a year ago, I began having dreams in which I observed a figure of roughly double my own height, encased in a body of pure white light. The light was quite bright, and I remember thinking it odd that my eyes did not burn to look upon it in the first few of these dreams. For around a month, the figure never spoke or gave any sign of attempting communication. It simply stood there, a glowing form against a backdrop of dark void. During this time, I was having these dreams twice a week on average and always awoke afterward with a strange sense of calm. Something told me not to question it or fight it, to welcome it.

After this, the dreams stopped for about two weeks, and I began to miss them deeply. My curiousity had been raised, and I had been left without any answers, without even proper questions to ask in the first place. I began meditating on my memory of the dreams before I went to sleep at night, hoping to somehow call them back and gain some answers from that mysterious figure. Finally, the dream returned to me, and I can remember it as clearly as I can remember my breakfast this morning - two Eggo blueberry waffles with peanut butter and maple syrup in dubious amounts.

As the figure stood before me once more, pulsating within the void, silent as always, I decided to speak. It had never occured to me before that I could initiate communication with this figure, but my curiousity must have driven me to that realization. I started simple. I asked its name. The figure spoke with a very high pitched voice that resonated quickly, as though it was producing sound on two distinct frequencies with one only slightly higher than the other - sharp, as it were. The word reverberated through me, "ee-ah-no-kay."

Feeling a little more brave upon having received an aswer, I asked, "What are you?"

The voice spoke again, and this time I noticed that the sound resonated in unison with the light sorrounding the figure. "I am what has become of civilization. I am ee-ah-no-kay."

I didn't quite understand this, and I didn't know where to go with my questions. Ignorant as I was, I simply stood there. I awoke with the same sense of peace I remembered from the previous dreams. I got up, dug a notebook out of the mess that was my room and wrote down what the figure had told me - first the pronunciation: ee-ah-no-kay, then a guess at a more proper spelling: Eanokeh.

It was some time, I would say a bit less than a month, before I saw the figure again (I really wish I had kept a better account of these dreams and dated them, but hindsight is 20/20). I used this time to do some research on the single clue I had been given. The closest semblance of the word Eanokeh with any signifigance that I could find was Enoch. There are references in biblical text both to a character named Enoch and a city later erected with the same name. Both of these biblical items are indicative of the advanced nature of civilization before Yahweh destroyed it all with the great flood.

I'm not a religious man, and I've never had great interest in judeo-christian myths, but this seemed too much to ignore. Was this figure a ghost from some ancient city that had somehow been destroyed without leaving a trace? My first answer to this question was, "Obviously not." To believe in ghosts is enough of a stretch. To believe that such a tremendous settlement as Enoch is made out to be could leave behind no physical trace of its existence today is far too much.

Desperate for clues, I turned to the closest parrallel of Genesis that I know of, the epic of Gilgamesh. The refference in the first tablet to the Eanna temple was a curious one. Perhaps I was grasping at straws, but the similarity between the words Eanokeh, Enoch and Eanna were all I had. With some further research, I learned that Eanna was actually thought to be the original name given for the city of Uruk. Now at least I had some link, however flimsy, to a civilization I knew to have existed.

I have always found it strange that Babylonian society had developed so quickly, forming a written language and methods of social organization with no parrallel on a seemingly unrealistic timescale. Of course, I had never heard any acceptable theories explaining this societal growth spurt, and I had never been able to form an acceptable theory of my own. After having abandoned my interest in ancient Babylonia some years ago, I took it back up with a passion.

The next dream of note to this explanation was far different than any previous. I found myself standing in front of what I could only assume was the Sphinx. If not the sphinx, then it was certainly some other giant statue of a sphinx out in the middle of the desert. The structure was not corroded, as it is in modern pictures, but it was not painted either, as it is assumed to have been when built. Between the paws of the imposing beast, a huge archway stood open.

I entered the archway and found myself descending a long flight of stairs. I remember thinking that it was suprisingly cool in the passageway, much unlike the bright desert outside. The stairs brought me to a large room supported by unnadorned pillars, in the center of which stood Eanokeh. The figure turned its back to me and walked into the next room. I followed him through a circular chamber much larger than the previous room and into a long tunnel. Along the walls of the tunnel I noticed what seemed to be beams of flowing light. The beams were yellow in hue and pulsated with the same frequency as Eanokeh's white luminescent form. It was in this tunnel that he turned toward me once more and spoke.

"All is bound by a cycle."

This was the last time I saw Eanokeh through my dreams, but I have spoken with Eanokeh since. I have discovered that, sometimes, I can call the figure into my mind through meditation. I do not wholly trust this method of conversation for the same reason I can not fully trust the dreams I once had. All of this could be my mind playing elaborate tricks on me, but I feel a greater signifigance behind all of this.

In the conversations I have had with Eanokeh, it claims not to be an individual but, rather, the collective incarnation of an entire civilization. Eanokeh makes it clear that this civilization once covered the Earth and had what seems to be very advanced technology, though what they have shown me of this technology seems much different in nature from our own. That is, the basis of their civilization, technology and philosophy seem to be wholly seperate from that of modern man. When I ask why there are no traces of their technology that have been found today, Eanokeh merely states that they have ascended.

Unfortunately, I have to go. I will do my best to explain further at a later time, and I welcome any questions you may have for myself or for Eanokeh.

Edit: This post was a lie. It was intended to be the beggining of a rather elaborate hoax loosely based on some of my real experiences and theories, but I didn't have the heart to go through with. Harte's Stargate reply gave me a good laugh though. Sorry, Harte, for being a bit rude to you in this thread. I felt that I needed to express indignation toward those who didn't bite to look like I was truly offended. This, of course, was to influence those who were apt to believe. Sorry to everyone here for being dishonest with you. Thanks for putting an end to my hoaxing spree.

 

[Harte]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"shane\")</div>

Please forgive me for the unspecific nature of my previous comments. I was unsure of whether it would be wise to divulge the source of my information, as knowledge of that source could dissuade others from seriously looking into the questions I raise. I see now that, regardless of the consequences, I must ascribe credit to the source.

About a year ago, I began having dreams in which I observed a figure of roughly double my own height, encased in a body of pure white light. The light was quite bright, and I remember thinking it odd that my eyes did not burn to look upon it in the first few of these dreams. For around a month, the figure never spoke or gave any sign of attempting communication. It simply stood there, a glowing form against a backdrop of dark void. During this time, I was having these dreams twice a week on average and always awoke afterward with a strange sense of calm. Something told me not to question it or fight it, to welcome it.

After this, the dreams stopped for about two weeks, and I began to miss them deeply. My curiousity had been raised, and I had been left without any answers, without even proper questions to ask in the first place. I began meditating on my memory of the dreams before I went to sleep at night, hoping to somehow call them back and gain some answers from that mysterious figure. Finally, the dream returned to me, and I can remember it as clearly as I can remember my breakfast this morning - two Eggo blueberry waffles with peanut butter and maple syrup in dubious amounts.

As the figure stood before me once more, pulsating within the void, silent as always, I decided to speak. It had never occured to me before that I could initiate communication with this figure, but my curiousity must have driven me to that realization. I started simple. I asked its name. The figure spoke with a very high pitched voice that resonated quickly, as though it was producing sound on two distinct frequencies with one only slightly higher than the other - sharp, as it were. The word reverberated through me, \"ee-ah-no-kay.\"

Feeling a little more brave upon having received an aswer, I asked, \"What are you?\"

The voice spoke again, and this time I noticed that the sound resonated in unison with the light sorrounding the figure. \"I am what has become of civilization. I am ee-ah-no-kay.\"

I didn't quite understand this, and I didn't know where to go with my questions. Ignorant as I was, I simply stood there. I awoke with the same sense of peace I remembered from the previous dreams. I got up, dug a notebook out of the mess that was my room and wrote down what the figure had told me - first the pronunciation: ee-ah-no-kay, then a guess at a more proper spelling: Eanokeh.

It was some time, I would say a bit less than a month, before I saw the figure again (I really wish I had kept a better account of these dreams and dated them, but hindsight is 20/20). I used this time to do some research on the single clue I had been given. The closest semblance of the word Eanokeh with any signifigance that I could find was Enoch. There are references in biblical text both to a character named Enoch and a city later erected with the same name. Both of these biblical items are indicative of the advanced nature of civilization before Yahweh destroyed it all with the great flood.

I'm not a religious man, and I've never had great interest in judeo-christian myths, but this seemed too much to ignore. Was this figure a ghost from some ancient city that had somehow been destroyed without leaving a trace? My first answer to this question was, \"Obviously not.\" To believe in ghosts is enough of a stretch. To believe that such a tremendous settlement as Enoch is made out to be could leave behind no physical trace of its existence today is far too much.

Desperate for clues, I turned to the closest parrallel of Genesis that I know of, the epic of Gilgamesh. The refference in the first tablet to the Eanna temple was a curious one. Perhaps I was grasping at straws, but the similarity between the words Eanokeh, Enoch and Eanna were all I had. With some further research, I learned that Eanna was actually thought to be the original name given for the city of Uruk. Now at least I had some link, however flimsy, to a civilization I knew to have existed.

I have always found it strange that Babylonian society had developed so quickly, forming a written language and methods of social organization with no parrallel on a seemingly unrealistic timescale. Of course, I had never heard any acceptable theories explaining this societal growth spurt, and I had never been able to form an acceptable theory of my own. After having abandoned my interest in ancient Babylonia some years ago, I took it back up with a passion.

The next dream of note to this explanation was far different than any previous. I found myself standing in front of what I could only assume was the Sphinx. If not the sphinx, then it was certainly some other giant statue of a sphinx out in the middle of the desert. The structure was not corroded, as it is in modern pictures, but it was not painted either, as it is assumed to have been when built. Between the paws of the imposing beast, a huge archway stood open.

I entered the archway and found myself descending a long flight of stairs. I remember thinking that it was suprisingly cool in the passageway, much unlike the bright desert outside. The stairs brought me to a large room supported by unnadorned pillars, in the center of which stood Eanokeh. The figure turned its back to me and walked into the next room. I followed him through a circular chamber much larger than the previous room and into a long tunnel. Along the walls of the tunnel I noticed what seemed to be beams of flowing light. The beams were yellow in hue and pulsated with the same frequency as Eanokeh's white luminescent form. It was in this tunnel that he turned toward me once more and spoke.

\"All is bound by a cycle.\"

This was the last time I saw Eanokeh through my dreams, but I have spoken with Eanokeh since. I have discovered that, sometimes, I can call the figure into my mind through meditation. I do not wholly trust this method of conversation for the same reason I can not fully trust the dreams I once had. All of this could be my mind playing elaborate tricks on me, but I feel a greater signifigance behind all of this.

In the conversations I have had with Eanokeh, it claims not to be an individual but, rather, the collective incarnation of an entire civilization. Eanokeh makes it clear that this civilization once covered the Earth and had what seems to be very advanced technology, though what they have shown me of this technology seems much different in nature from our own. That is, the basis of their civilization, technology and philosophy seem to be wholly seperate from that of modern man. When I ask why there are no traces of their technology that have been found today, Eanokeh merely states that they have ascended.

Unfortunately, I have to go. I will do my best to explain further at a later time, and I welcome any questions you may have for myself or for Eanokeh.[/b]

I've got a question for Eanoke. Did you meet Dr. Daniel Jackson either of the two times he was "ascended"?

Harte

 

[shane]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Harte\")</div>

I've got a question for Eanoke. ?Did you meet Dr. Daniel Jackson either of the two times he was \"ascended\"?
?
Harte[/b]

You're funny, Harte, if somewhat rude.

 

[Timebender]

Re: Fringe Archaeology or Hidden Truth?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Harte\")</div>

I must agree completely with you here. ?If the stories in the Vimanas described actual events, it would be (to say the least) astounding. I have not heard of any of the manuscripts being in dispute or under any doubt regarding antiquity though. ?They do place Man on Earth in the millions of years. ?This would be enough of a problem for me.



I have come across several sites that debunk Cremo and his pard. I really haven't looked into the Vimanas much myself. ?They are only ancient writings and there's (so far) not much of a movement toward \"proving\" their literal truth. ?So much more (other) poppycock is out there with charlatans raking in the dough, supposedly \"proving\" this or that about the high-tech ancients that I don't put much effort into the Vimanas. There are enough real fires of idiocy out there that need to be extinguished. Also, like you say, it is sometimes hard to research this stuff on the internet. ?Almost all the scholarly info on the Vimanas that's out there comes, of course, from Hindu scholars. ?The sources themselves must also be researched, as is shown by the connection between Cremo and the International Society for Krishna consciousness which you so graciously supplied to us.

BTW gl100, have you read my post on the Annunaki on the Conspiracy Cafe site? ?There are some very useful links in my post to websites some of which contain useful links themselves. ?I'm not getting much response there. ?I'll probably end up putting it over here too.

Harte[/b]

Harte,
I am entertained by the dubiousness of your attempts to "debunk" so many subjects found here, but you show a drastic lack of research in the following quote,

"I have come across several sites that debunk Cremo and his pard. I really haven't looked into the Vimanas much myself. They are only ancient writings and there's (so far) not much of a movement toward "proving" their literal truth. So much more (other) poppycock is out there with charlatans raking in the dough, supposedly "proving" this or that about the high-tech ancients that I don't put much effort into the Vimanas. "

To correct your own error in an effort to see that such mis-information is not perpetuated, you must know that "the Vimanas" are not "ancient writings", but rather a specific reference to flying machines. The Mahabharata and Ramayana, on the other hand, are "ancient writings" that describe Vimanas, but there are no "writings" called "the Vimanas".
This mis-information inspired the following quote by gl100,
"As you say, the vimanas are a very interesting collection of stories and the mythology is intriguing to say the least."

You have many tough and valid arguments as a rule Harte, but this was such a stretch I had to post the correction before anymore damage was done regarding texts or writings that do not exist.
TB