🛡️ Debate John Titor: Real Time Traveler or a Hoaxer?

Roth Joint

Junior Member
John Titor Debate!

It seems that one of John Titor's strongest "predictions" is about to come true: the collapse of Western stability, the coming crisis for Europe... in 2005!

JT: "...Western stability, which collapses in 2005."
"The West will become very unstable..."
"Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West..."


Has the EU reached breaking point?
Monday 30th May 2005

Could the European Union collapse? The question, dismissed a few
years ago as the stirrings of Europhobic fantasists, is now
pertinent. National governments across the continent are struggling
for authority and credibility. Econ-omies are struggling for growth
and dynamism. The confidence and certainties of the post-Second World
War settlement are being eroded. The British disease of animosity
towards European institutions has spread.

The desperate struggle to approve the constitution in countries which
had been the bedrock of the project is not the cause, but the
manifestation, of the crisis. The first sign that something was awry
came in 2001, when Ireland voted No to the Nice Treaty. A country
which until that point had only benefited from membership gave it a
resounding thumbs-down. The minutiae of that particular treaty was
not the issue in that referendum. The Irish simply wanted to make
their anxiety known, and it was an inchoate list comprising anti-
foreigner sentiment, opposition to abortion, support for Sinn Fein
and/or generally giving Bertie Ahern a good kicking.

As Francois Mitterrand remarked: "When a government consults its
people on a particular question through a referendum, the answer it
gets is often aimed at a different question." For the French this
time around - and don't forget how they nearly rejected Maastricht in
1992 - it is a resistance to the chill winds of globalisation and
fears of the end of Gallic exceptionalism. For the Dutch, the strains
over immigration have been evident for some time. The constitutional
treaty is no panacea. It contains very little that is objectionable,
but not much more that is commendable. It is essentially an oversize
(852-page) management manual with a mission statement at the front.

The treaty will, to some degree, streamline the workings of the three
institutions that comprise the EU - the European Commission, the
meetings of the member states that are the council, and the
parliament. It creates an EU foreign minister, a good thing, although
in Javier Solana the organisation already has one in all but name. It
is, as the French resistance rightly points out, more of an Anglo-
Saxon cobble-together than anything the founding fathers would have
agreed to.

Europe's problems extend far beyond the fate of this document. The
spectacular rejection of Gerhard Schroder's SPD in state elections in
Germany attests to discontent with one variant of social democracy.
The impending demise of Messrs Chirac and Berlusconi suggests that
centre-right solutions in France and Italy are similarly not finding
favour. Should that bring a smile to the face of the recently re-
elected Tony Blair? Hardly. Leaving aside the legitimacy or otherwise
of his victory, Blair is an equally denuded figure in EU
chancelleries. Iraq saw to that, more particularly his craven support
for the Bush administration's attempts to divide Europe into "new"
and "old". What was done so wantonly will take years of assiduous
diplomacy to undo.

And yet the task of keeping "Europe" afloat will fall to the very man
who has failed to reconcile that very project to his own people.
Britain has played a desultory role in the EU - late in arriving and
truculent in participating. Blair will assume the EU presidency in
the summer at the least propitious of moments. The last Blairite
presidency, in 1998, was long on stunts (speech on platform as
Eurostar arrives at Waterloo Station, that kind of thing), short on
substance. This time will have to be different.

What matters is not the fate of constitutions or institutions, but
providing a means for Europe to thrive, or at least survive, in the
face of the dual threat of Chinese and Indian economic might and
American military hubris. There is simply no future for us - the UK,
France, Germany or any other EU member - in going it alone.
Integration per se is not the solution. Clever integration, on
economics, diplomacy and defence, is.

Will Europe's leaders be up to the task? The omens are not good.
While the French kick up rough over the admission of Turkey, the
Brits defend their indefensible budget rebate, negotiated 20 years
ago by Margaret Thatcher and her handbag. Trading it in for some
serious progress on the Common Agricultural Policy would be a deft
piece of negotiation. But of course we won't. The shrill cries of
Euroscepticism have, as ever, intervened.

"Red lines", once the preserve of the UK, are now invoked by all
governments as they seek to indulge their voters and "get something
out of Brussels". A mean spirit has taken hold. A club once so
popular that countries clamoured to join is now having to justify its
very existence.

Taken from: http://business.scotsman.com/economy.cfm?id=558622005

Europe in disarray as Italian economy in crisis

Sun 22 May 2005

AMACABRE competition appears to have broken out across the Continent
ahead of the French vote on the EU constitution: which of the
Eurozone's economies are in the deepest trouble and could spark a
Europe-wide crisis?

Earlier this year it looked as if Germany was the real source of the
Eurozone's woes. Unemployment climbed to more than five million, and
even allowing for statistical blips, there is little doubt of a
widespread lack of confidence among consumers and business.

But the real basket case may be neither Germany nor France. According
to the Economist it is Italy that is in the deepest trouble. Figures
earlier this month showed the Italian economy fell back into
recession in the first quarter of the year. The latest OECD report on
Italy argues that the country's slow economic growth mainly reflects
its structural failings. With the traditional option of devaluation
now closed as Italy is part of the euro bloc, there are growing
worries of a serious crisis in the public finances as tax revenues
fall behind.

These outcomes are an appalling advertisement for the agenda of
integration that drives the EU constitution. Together these three
economies account for 70% of Eurozone GDP. And the Eurozone continues
to be the weakest performer in global comparisons of growth......

Taken from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1489171,00.html

No votes for Europe's new constitution:

Alarm grows at prospect of French and Dutch no votes

David Gow in Brussels
Saturday May 21, 2005
The Guardian

European Union leaders desperately appealed yesterday for a yes vote
in the French and Dutch referendums on the new constitution, warning
that rejection of the treaty in either country would be a "failure for
Europe" that would set the EU back 20 years.

In London Jos? Manuel Barroso, the European commission president,
said: "I believe that in case there was a no in either of those
countries it would be perceived outside of Europe as a failure for
Europe. People will say: 'Those Europeans cannot even agree about a
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Keep your eyes on Europe's political and economical situation, keep your eyes on Israel and it's Arab neighbours and keep your eyes on China.

Because Titor's world is developing itself...

John Titor:

** ...."political situations are dependant on Western stability, which collapses in 2005."
<span style='font-family:Arial'>** \"It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering belief...but you will find that out yourself in 2005.\"</span>
** "Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West as a result of degrading US foreign policy and consistency."
** "The West will become very unstable which gives China the confidence to "expand"."
** <span style='font-family:Arial'>\"</span><span style='font-family:Arial'>Wavering western support for Israel is what gives Israel's neighbors the confidence to attack.\"</span>
** <span style='font-family:Arial'>\"</span><span style='font-family:Arial'>Western instability during the conflict leads to the attack in 2015\"</span>
<span style='font-family:Arial'>** \"The war is a result of faulty politics and desperation from Western leadership during the US civil war. Yes, I suppose you could stop it.\"</span>


Voters in 2 nations may reject EU constitution
May 28, 2005


The French referendum Sunday and another one three days later in the Netherlands have unexpectedly turned into a crisis for the architects of the European Union. Voters in both countries appear ready to reject the 448-article draft that is supposed to serve as a constitution for the EU's 25 member nations.

Thus far, 10 member nations have approved the constitution, but only Spain did so by referendum. The others ratified it in their national legislatures. The draft must be accepted by every member nation before it becomes law.

Opinion polls over the past month have consistently shown the "no" camp with a steady lead in the range of 51 percent to 54 percent. The only hope for constitution supporters is that a quarter of voters say they are undecided.

The opposition comes in all political stripes, such as:

? Dissident socialists who fear the new constitution will end France's welfare state.
? Catholic nationalists angry that the document makes no mention of God.
? Trade unions that fear it will export jobs to eastern Europe.
? Radicals who argue that the document is a plot for the corporate takeover of Europe.

The "yes" camp says such a union will offer strong economic competition to China, India and the United States.

At stake: The treaty would take effect Nov. 1, 2006, if ratified by referendum or parliamentary vote in all 25 EU nations.

The charter:
The constitution guarantees freedom of speech and religion, shelter, education, collective labor bargaining and fair working conditions. It enshrines the EU flag -- a circle of 12 golden stars on a blue background -- designates Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" as the EU anthem, and makes the euro the official currency. The constitution provides for an EU president to be chosen by EU leaders for a maximum 5-year term.

If France rejects it: The treaty that led to the draft constitution says EU leaders are to discuss what to do if, by October 2006, four-fifths of member nations have ratified it, but one or more others have "encountered difficulties" getting it accepted. Countries may be asked to vote again.

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

I find this a trifle disturbing..


WASHINGTON - The Bush administration asked a federal appeals court Friday to restore its ability to compel Internet service providers to turn over information about their customers or subscribers as part of its fight against terrorism.

The legal filing with the 2nd Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in New York comes amid a debate in Congress over renewal of the Patriot Act and whether to expand the FBI's power to seek records without the approval of a judge or grand jury.

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

As far as the government goes, I think they have been up to alot of no good. Let's take the new reports of banks getting hacked. I suspect that the government is the culprit behind this. They do these things to make the public feel unsafe. That gives them the opportunity to swoop in and pretend to save the day. While they are issuing you your "US ID cards" to protect you, they are the original threat in the first place.
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

There is one big thing about Titor's future that I really don't look forward to if he was real. The way he said his society looked back on ours with disappointment. Wouldn't most people from today be a part of his society (considering who survived). Plus it's not like his "we are so much better than those in 2005" society would last very long. Human nature would eventually take it's course again. People will get greedy and try to take control over others. The whole process will start all over again. A small few will feel like it's their destiny to rule over a majority and step forward just to cause more harm to mankind. So to me Titor's words about us being such a bad past will be his future. Give or take a few generations and their descendants will become us.
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

I agree with you DWOMT. For me, in a weird way, I long for it. Not the fighting or anything. Just the slow down of life. Mine stays so busy that I never get to rest. Some of it is have to, some of it I bring on myself. But can you imagine a life much like they had in the past? You grow your own food, spend time with your family, sit on the porch and put up your feet. I don't know. I don't want anything bad to happen to anyone. I do not wish that. I just think that civilization needs to take a step back. We have become too imbalanced. Maybe that's what he's talking about.
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

That's another thing virtualgirl, Corporate America has pretty much enslaved the American population. That's what's harming our kids and the family unit. People are so busy and are being forced to work such odd schedules (nights, weekends, holidays, etc) that it's hurting families. Kids don't see their parents much anymore, and that's leading kids into drugs and gangs. I would give anything for life to go back to the way they had it in the old days, but unfortunately a "painful rebirth" has to take place for that to happen.
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<span style='color:#202020'>Titor was right... the collapse of European stability in 2005:

** ....\"political situations are dependant on Western stability,
which collapses in 2005.\"
** \"It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering belief...but you
will find that out yourself in 2005.\"
** \"Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization
of the West as a result of degrading US foreign policy and
** \"The West will become very unstable which gives China the
confidence to \"expand\".\"
** \"Wavering western support for Israel is what gives Israel's
neighbors the confidence to attack.\"


<span style='color:#202020'>Europe is Collapsing
View: Nevval SEVINDI

We are just about to enter, but Europe is falling apart. It's a
Turkish attitude to put off things for a long time; and by the time
we reach peak levels the conditions change.

Just at the time we are leaning against the EU door, something we
have not been very willing to do in the last 40 years, and whose
process we did not speed up, the paints of the door are falling off,
so to speak. Europe is on the verge of a collapse. Why?

\"No\" is the most likely outcome of the French referendum on May 29.
According to researches, it is about 52 percent. The [Jacques] Chirac
administration has created an environment of a confidence vote for
itself by overstraining the \"yes\" votes. This counterinteraction that
will produce political instability, is the beginning of objection to
the enlargement of Europe. The referendum debate generally has been
on Turkey. France does not want to settle within a new conjuncture
and does not want new members. By saying \"no,\" France rejects the
essence and institutional structure of Europe, forms the main axis of
the EU project along with Germany. The collapse of the French leg
will also drag the Netherlands along with it. How will an EU with a
broken backbone claim to be a continental power?
More at: </span>http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=1212

<span style='color:#202020'>Europe: Is the dream falling apart?

It was supposed to be a new way for nations to live and work
together. It's been successful beyond its wildest dreams. But if
France votes No tomorrow it may spell the end of the EU ? or perhaps
a revival of the ideals that started the adventure in the first
place. Iain Macwhirter reports

There is understandable gloom and foreboding this weekend over the
future of the European project. If France and the Netherlands
vote \"No\" to the new constitution, it will likely start a
rejectionist domino effect that will knock on through Denmark,
Ireland and Poland. Europe could be flattened for a generation.
Then again, perhaps this could be the moment when Europe finally
comes to its senses. The French \"non\" will be a crisis, certainly,
but a crisis is also a turning point. Few will mourn the loss of this
less than inspiring document. It could be an opportunity for Europe
to regain some of its idealism and purpose; a chance to remind itself
that the EU is about more than agricultural support quotas.
More at: </span>http://www.sundayherald.com/50032

<span style='color:#202020'>In his final appeal, Mr Chirac warned that a French \"No\" would bring
deep instability to Europe, ultimately weakening France at home and

He made it clear that there was no better Treaty waiting in the wings
if France says \"No\" to this one.

But the polls suggest that many French have discounted that
possibility - and unless they change their minds at the last minute,
are preparing to deliver a knock-out blow to the Treaty and to
Jacques Chirac.
More at: </span>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4585237.stm
Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Are we sure Europe is the unbalanced Western Stability Titor spoke about for 2005? In one of his responses, he mentioned a "Unified European Army". That doesn't sound like a torn and battered Europe to me:

<span style='font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>Russia and China have always had a very strange relationship. Even the news I see now indicates that continued weapons deals to allies, border clashes and overpopulation will lead to hostilities. The West will become very unstable which gives China the confidence to \\"expand\\". I'm assuming you are all aware that China has millions of male soldiers right now that they know will never be able to find wives. The attack on Europe is in response to a unified European army that masses and moves East from Germany. Also, please be aware that from my viewpoint, Russia attacked my enemy who was in the U.S. cities. Yes, the U.S. did counter attack.

Re: John Titor Is Not A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"DWOMT\")</div>
Are we sure Europe is the unbalanced Western Stability Titor spoke about for 2005? In one of his responses, he mentioned a \"Unified European Army\". That doesn't sound like a torn and battered Europe to me:


Titor said:
1) The West will become very unstable which gives China the confidence to "expand". I'm assuming you are all aware that China has millions of male soldiers right now that they know will never be able to find wives.
2) The attack on Europe is in response to a unified European army that masses and moves East from Germany."

The formation of a "Unified European Army" is not restricted to Europe's stability or instability. Especially not when it is formed as a "last resort" in response to destructive developments in the rest of the world.

The instability of Europe will drag the US (as the other part of the West) in it as well. It is in agreement with Titor's statement that "real disruptions in world events" will then begin. Furthermore Titor mentioned the year 2005 several times as the year where it all really begun.

America, meanwhile, remains the leading economic and military power, but its economy is staggering under a massive $900 billion deficit, 7% of gross domestic product, and the disastrous war in Iraq has shattered our confidence in America?s self-professed role as a global policeman. When they toppled Saddam Hussein, it was supposed to show the world that America ruled all, with its smart weapons and skill at electronic warfare. It did precisely the opposite, demonstrating just how weak America really is. The result, in actual fact, is that one largely defenceless Middle Eastern country has tied down the world?s only superpower.

The shifting of these geopolitical tectonic plates makes it even more important that Europe succeeds. Insecurity is once again the defining characteristic of international affairs. Nuclear weapons are proliferating. New trading blocks are busily forming, and economic nationalism is returning. All this is taking place against a background of global instability through climate change, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, and the endemic threat of international terrorism.

The world needs a cool head. Increasingly, Europe is the only place that has it...