minuteman project and Waco type events thread

[Darkwolf]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

Bush Prepares for Possible Shutdown of GPS Network in National Crisis
By Ted Bridis December 16, 2004
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NOTEBOOK
The White House is working to give the government the ability to shut down certain portions of the GPS network in case of another terrorist attack; and while a necessary step in securing the nation's defenses, there would likely be a huge impact on the burgeoning use of digital technologies if that step were taken.

There were precious few details given as to what type of event may trigger such a measure, but one can imagine that terrorists could wreak havoc just by having that system triggered.

One example: the Associated Press reported on farmers using GPS technologies to better manage their land. -- Brad King

Other Links
The GALILEO network

White House statement on GPS-GALILEO co-operation

President Bill Clinton's statement on disabling Selective Availability

Protect Critical Infrastructures and Key Assets (PDF)


Related Stories:



AP Technology Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President George W. Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said.

Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters Wednesday at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion (euro3.59 billion) program, called Galileo.

The military increasingly uses GPS technology to move troops across large areas and direct bombs and missiles. Any government-ordered shutdown or jamming of the GPS satellites would be done in ways to limit disruptions to navigation and related systems outside the affected area, the White House said.

\"This is not something you would do lightly,\" said James A. Lewis, director of technology policy for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. \"It's clearly a big deal. You have to give them credit for being so open about what they're going to do.\"

President Bill Clinton abandoned the practice in May 2000 of deliberately degrading the accuracy of civilian navigation signals, a technique known as \"selective availability.\"

The White House said it will not reinstate that practice, but said the president could decide to disable parts of the network for national security purposes.

The directives to the Defense Department and the Homeland Security Department were part of a space policy that Bush signed this month. It designates the GPS network as a critical infrastructure for the U.S. government. Part of the new policy is classified; other parts were disclosed Wednesday.

The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free.

The U.S. network is comprised of more than two dozen satellites that act as beacons, sending location-specific radio signals that are recognized by devices popular with motorists, hikers, pilots and sailors.

Bush also said the government will make the network signals more resistant to deliberate or inadvertent jamming.

Copyright 2004 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

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This one is kind of interasting. How exactly would GPS be that useful in a terrorist attack? Persumably the terrorists already know where their target is. People hiding in the woods, and making a more military type approach to their targets on the other hand....

 

[Judge Bean]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Jan 13 2005, 11:24 PM

Then you are aware of the magnitude of criminal conduct now engaged in by your government.

I am aware of some criminal conduct by the current administration, and I am also aware of partisan interpretations of events by pollitical forces who are trying to gain some of their power back. Which events are you referring to?

​

Just as fascism is a parody of politics, and uses a kind of mockery of political discourse to gain power, so tyranny will often take on the guise and mannerism of the contemporary popular image of political authority and debate to advance its authentic program.

The true source of a tyrant's power, though, is official violence, which can take the form of forcible deprivation of liberty-- lockup and questioning without due process of law. Imprisonment is an exercise of state force. Look to the raw exercise of military power in the guise of law enforcement-- there you will find all of the jackboots, the secret police, the concentration camps, the unrestrained "interrogations," the remoteness from judicial process.

There are the 1942 Internment camps, the chainlink yards erected by the Nixon administration to control protesters, the trudging line of secret detainees being "rendered" by the CIA, and Guantanamo.

 

[Darkwolf]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

The true source of a tyrant's power, though, is official violence, which can take the form of forcible deprivation of liberty-- lockup and questioning without due process of law. Imprisonment is an exercise of state force. Look to the raw exercise of military power in the guise of law enforcement-- there you will find all of the jackboots, the secret police, the concentration camps, the unrestrained \"interrogations,\" the remoteness from judicial process.

Paul, what is happening at Guantanamo is not going to cause any kind of revolution here. Nor do the people held there have any kind of claim to protection under our judicial system. They are enemies, not criminals. It would be when such things are done on our soil that there would be major problems. I'm all for the CIA and the military playing hardball overseas if it keeps the anything bad from happening here. We are facing an enemy who does not play by the rules, any rules. It would be stupid to constrain ourselves to the rules we use for criminals. Its kind of like trying to follow the rules of boxing when facing a street fighter who can get his hands on broken bottles, pool cues, ect.

 

[Judge Bean]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Jan 14 2005, 12:38 AM


...what is happening at Guantanamo is not going to cause any kind of revolution here. Nor do the people held there have any kind of claim to protection under our judicial system. They are enemies, not criminals. It would be when such things are done on our soil that there would be major problems. I'm all for the CIA and the military playing hardball overseas if it keeps the anything bad from happening here. We are facing an enemy who does not play by the rules, any rules. It would be stupid to constrain ourselves to the rules we use for criminals. Its kind of like trying to follow the rules of boxing when facing a street fighter who can get his hands on broken bottles, pool cues, ect.

​

The rule of law under the Constitution, which the president swears his duty to uphold and defend, requires his executive action to comport with the standards imposed on the investigation and prosecution of criminal suspects throughout the realm and under our jurisdiction. All persons who find themselves accused of wrongdoing under the laws of the United States, federal and State, are entitled to the protections of the Constitution: you admitted as much yourself.

Persons accused or suspected of crimes in our advanced system of justice are neither criminals nor "enemies." Their status does not change because the government suspects them of certain actions. After and only after they have been subjected to due process of law, including the benefit of the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, can they be classified as "criminals." If they are not "enemies," that is, persons detained as enemies of the U.S. in a time of war, then they are accused defendants. If they are "enemies," they are entitled to treatment afforded to prisoners of war.

It is interesting that whenever Americans (who are in the majority caucasian) find themselves in combat with those of other races, the Americans accuse them of dirty fighting, and claim the right to resort to the same dirty fighting to give eye for eye. The Marines learned to fight dirty from the Japanese at Guadalcanal. The militia learned massacre of towns from the Narragansett and Pequod; the cavalry from the Sioux and Comanche.

Knocking down two beautiful, peaceful, gigantic buildings filled with people is a grotesque, enormous crime-- one of the worst. There is a felt need to do the same kind of thing to someone we can identify as the culprit. But we can't find equivalent towers overseas anywhere, and the mastermind eludes capture. We can't get justice from playing rough Gestapo with scrawny peons in the basement, and we debase our most cherished values by doing so.

I have represented persons of such a monstrous character that you would not want to hear too many of the details. Many of them I have despised more deeply than the selfrighteous prosecutors could, because I had to get close to the evil and inhale it and try to help it have its share of justice. These people have attacked helpless ones and killed some of them, ruined others. I don't do it for love of the accused; I do it for love of the system.

What the government is doing to some of its prisoners is criminal, and I accuse it of crimes. I hope that when its day in court comes, it has a decent defense attorney.

 

[StarLord]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon@Jan 13 2005, 11:46 PM
I have represented persons of such a monstrous character that you would not want to hear too many of the details. Many of them I have despised more deeply than the selfrighteous prosecutors could, because I had to get close to the evil and inhale it and try to help it have its share of justice. These people have attacked helpless ones and killed some of them, ruined others. I don't do it for love of the accused; I do it for love of the system.

What the government is doing to some of its prisoners is criminal, and I accuse it of crimes. I hope that when its day in court comes, it has a decent defense attorney.

​

That is very sobering to say the least and I only had the barest inkling of what it must be like serving as you do in our judicial system. Guts like this, if not equaling the trials our servicemen endure, surpass them. I am humbled by your commitment and faith for justice, even to stand for those that have clearly shown their own dissregard for others lives and rights.

Paul, you are a true Patriot in every sense of the word and I am ever thankfull for the gift of being able to associate with people like you and the others here. There is much to be learned and to be aware of always.

 

[CaryP]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

What the government is doing to some of its prisoners is criminal, and I accuse it of crimes. I hope that when its day in court comes, it has a decent defense attorney.

Damned straight.

Cary

 

[Darkwolf]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

Knocking down two beautiful, peaceful, gigantic buildings filled with people is a grotesque, enormous crime-- one of the worst. There is a felt need to do the same kind of thing to someone we can identify as the culprit. But we can't find equivalent towers overseas anywhere, and the mastermind eludes capture. We can't get justice from playing rough Gestapo with scrawny peons in the basement, and we debase our most cherished values by doing so.

Paul, unfortunatly our most cherished values have stood beacause of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that the land and the people within which they are valued continue to exist. We weren't eventually invaded by Japan beacause we had people willing to burn them out of caves with flamethrowers. We were not vaporized or forced to surrender by Russia's nuclear arsonal beacause we had people willing to turn the little keys that would kill millions of people. These acts are horrible, and the men who committed them pay for it every time they close their eyes. However if they were not committed, the system you so cherish would have been wiped from existance, and our forfather's work would have been for nothing. These people who are willing to do what is nessisary elsewhere to protect what we have here and suffer the scars to their souls are the true patriots.
We should not so much think that we are fighting for justice as fighting to stop anything like that from happening. To stop an islamist takie over of the world which sounds rediculus now, but if no one draws the line and opposes them, won't a few decades from now. Justice is secondary to defense in this case. Keeping them off of our doorstep is the first priority.
Now, I do agree that torturing people in guantanamo bay isn't the way to go about it, or at least not those people. Invading Iraq doesn't make any sense except as a way to secure a base of operations in the area. The problem is that we are fighting with body blows rather than striking the small points that would do the dammage. I think it would be better if their religious leaders knew that if they issued a fatwa of war on monday there would be a good chance that they woulden't be breathing on friday.

Now, let me pose you a hypothetical situation. You have a man in your custody who has planted some horrible weapon of mass destruction in various places around the country. For the sake of arguement, you know this without a shadow of a doubt. This guy is a fanatical maniac of one stripe or another, and isn't going to talk. You have only a few hours to get the information from him. Would you resort to torture then? Could you live with it if you didn't?

 

[Judge Bean]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Jan 15 2005, 03:42 AM

Knocking down two beautiful, peaceful, gigantic buildings filled with people is a grotesque, enormous crime-- one of the worst. There is a felt need to do the same kind of thing to someone we can identify as the culprit. But we can't find equivalent towers overseas anywhere, and the mastermind eludes capture. We can't get justice from playing rough Gestapo with scrawny peons in the basement, and we debase our most cherished values by doing so.

Paul, unfortunatly our most cherished values have stood beacause of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that the land and the people within which they are valued continue to exist.

No, our values have withstood the pressure to diminish them in the face of emergency, the pressure to prioritize security over freedom. The values are of universal application, according to the original philosophy behind them, and are not dependent upon the survival of any particular nation or state. Americans do not own freedom, and do not get to tell the world what it means.

We weren't eventually invaded by Japan beacause we had people willing to burn them out of caves with flamethrowers. We were not vaporized or forced to surrender by Russia's nuclear arsonal beacause we had people willing to turn the little keys that would kill millions of people. These acts are horrible, and the men who committed them pay for it every time they close their eyes. However if they were not committed, the system you so cherish would have been wiped from existance, and our forfather's work would have been for nothing. These people who are willing to do what is nessisary elsewhere to protect what we have here and suffer the scars to their souls are the true patriots.

Certainly you are not saying that our freedom depends upon our willingness to kill. This is an inversion of heroism in my understanding. To me, heroism is seen in the willingness to sacrifice one's own life so that others may live. Our values do not depend upon the killing of others. Rooting enemy soldiers out of hiding with horrible weapons is not the same thing as nuclear bombing, and neither depends upon the heroism or sacrifice of the one operating the machinery.

We should not so much think that we are fighting for justice as fighting to stop anything like that from happening. To stop an islamist takie over of the world which sounds rediculus now, but if no one draws the line and opposes them, won't a few decades from now. Justice is secondary to defense in this case. Keeping them off of our doorstep is the first priority.

It may seem ridiculous to say so, but our only chance of peace is justice, and the primary purpose of engaging in military action should be to fight for justice. A world with beaten enemies does not provide the opportunity to shore up justice afterward, as a kind of public works project: just the opposite. An America geared up for military and police power with defeated enemies leaves no one else to go after but the people.

Now, I do agree that torturing people in guantanamo bay isn't the way to go about it, or at least not those people. Invading Iraq doesn't make any sense except as a way to secure a base of operations in the area. The problem is that we are fighting with body blows rather than striking the small points that would do the dammage. I think it would be better if their religious leaders knew that if they issued a fatwa of war on monday there would be a good chance that they woulden't be breathing on friday.

This may feel bracing to contemplate, but in fact no mainstream Islamic religious leaders have the power to order violence against the U.S., even if it were a priority in the religion; and there is far more evidence that the U.S. seeks to wipe out Islam and Arab countries than vice versa. The terrorist attacks derived from the wealthy Saudis, and the well-financed fringe fanatic group known as Al Qaeda, which is now much, much stronger and richer. These are perhaps the most westernized Arabs or Moslems you will find outside of Lebanon.

Now, let me pose you a hypothetical situation. You have a man in your custody who has planted some horrible weapon of mass destruction in various places around the country. For the sake of arguement, you know this without a shadow of a doubt. This guy is a fanatical maniac of one stripe or another, and isn't going to talk. You have only a few hours to get the information from him. Would you resort to torture then? Could you live with it if you didn't?

​

Is this some sort of video game? This is a thread about Titor, isn't it? Is this a discussion about Waco events? Please, let's not get out the games here. Let's get back to the discussion.

 

[August]

minuteman project and Waco type events thread

Darkwolf, you said,

Paul, unfortunatly our most cherished values have stood beacause of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that the land and the people within which they are valued continue to exist.

Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. Hmm.

?Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice?Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.? Barry Goldwater

Just what to say if you don't want to become president.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Note for postarity, we lost three weeks of material right here

Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. Hmm.

?Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice?Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.? Barry Goldwater

Just what to say if you don't want to become president.

Don't think I'd take the job if 98% of the population wrote me in Aug. That way I can be as outspoken as I, or somone anyway needs to be.


To start back up, Paul you had just explained your constitutional ammendment plan, and I had asked how that ammendment was going to get there so that we can use it.