Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

Ralan

Member
Messages
361
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

The ICM survey shows that if the British had a vote in the US presidential elections on November 2 they would vote 50% for Kerry and only 22% for Bush.

Sixty per cent of British voters say they don't like Bush, rising to a startling 77% among those under 25.

The rejection of Mr Bush is strongest in France where 72% say they would back Mr Kerry but it is also very strong in traditionally very pro-American South Korea, where fears of a pre-emptive US strike against North Korea have translated into 68% support for Mr Kerry.

In Britain the growth in anti-Americanism is not so marked as in France, Japan, Canada, South Korea or Spain where more than 60% say their view of the United States has deteriorated since September 11. But a sizeable and emerging minority - 45% - of British voters say their image of the US has got worse in the past three years and only 15% say it has improved.

There is a widespread agreement that America will remain the world's largest economic power.

This is underlined by the 73% of British voters who say that the US now wields an excessive influence on international affairs, a situation that 67% see as continuing for the foreseeable future.

A majority in Britain also believe that US democracy is no longer a model for others.

But perhaps a more startling finding from the Guardian/ICM poll is that a majority of British voters - 51% - say that they believe that American culture is threatening our own culture.

This is a fear shared by the Canadians, Mexicans and South Koreans, but it is more usually associated with the French than the British. Perhaps the endless television reruns of Friends and the Simpsons are beginning to take their toll.

I strongly agree with all of these results, except perhaps the 50% vote for Kerry, although this may just be that the two party system image is dominating so much that many British people just don't know about the other candidates.

I do fear the threat of US culture to British culture, but I will admit that the British increasingly chav or ned culture* is not exactly a great role model.

*Large gangs of youths who wander the streets in shiny tracksuits destroying things and bottling people.
 

KiraSjon

Member
Messages
172
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

(Angst @ Oct 6 2004, 05:17 AM)
I can't believe you American's.

If you re-vote Bush in you will probably start WWIII.

Everyone I know think's he is the worst president ever.

Dont take any notice of me though, its not my country. Its your Vote.

*puts some change in the jar*

DISCLAIMER: This post is not meant to offend anyone. I love you all and wouldn't trade you in for the world, no matter who was running it. If I say something in the following that offends you in any fashion, please pm me and we can work it out. >:D<

This might end up being more than 2 cents, but here goes:

1. While I understand and agree that everyone has their own opinion and is rightfully entitled to it, I must say that it really hurts my feelings to hear Europeans criticize Americans because of our government. (No, it does not hurt my feelings to hear my government criticized, such as Fringan and Ralan did - that's absolutely cool, just the American people.)

2. Our government has been corrupt a very, very, very long time. We know this. Y'all should know it and if you think it *just* happened, then I feel very badly for you. So you kind of have to look at it like this: Somehow, this president has either managed to single-handedly anger the entire world *or* this is a long time coming. To my knowledge, (and please correct me if I am wrong) we had troops over in the middle east way before W. even came into power. Hell, before he went to college. We've been fighting wars over there since I can remember. So, it's not like he just up and moved all of our troops over there in one fail swoop. What is happening world-wide seems to me like a pot that is finally boiling over. This is nothing new and the "shock" value associated with it almost makes me want to laugh.

3. As far as France goes, I can't remember the last time France liked America. For example, contrary to popular American belief, they did *not* build the Statue of Liberty for us. It was supposed to go at the entrance of the Suez Canal and didn't fit. The government told us France gave it to the American people as a gift because they liked us so much and we had such good relations (bullsh*t)...now how long ago was that? 120 years or so? Yes, the government has been stretching the truth to the American people for at least that long. Maybe we should try bribing other countries to "improve" relations, hell, I don't know.

4. On top of all of that, y'all have to understand and keep in mind, we (the people) are working with the lesser of many evils, not just the president. There is not one president since Kennedy that has tried to work against the system and we all know what happened to him. I did many reports in high school comparing the American way of doing things to the European way and yes, Europe's was somehow mostly better. Y'all have less murders, crime, everything...but you also have leaders with power. Our leaders don't work like that. The real power is behind the scenes. The president is borderline a puppet. He's the one the people like to listen to. He's not the one that makes all the ultimate decisions. We get to vote on whose face we watch on television. That's almost about it. He can veto, but he doesn't go to war by himself. He can't. The system doesn't work that way. Whomever becomes president has a sh*t hand dealt to them either way you want to look at it and neither of these candidates really have a good track record for doing anything worth anything - depending on whose eyes you choose to look through.

5. Last point. I'm curious what you Europeans think we Americans (the people, not the government) should do exactly. It seems like all I hear is criticism coming over from that part of the world. Not to say it's entirely unwarranted, but really, what would you like us to do? Do you honestly think our government does what we ask or even demand it does? Do you really think each individual vote always counts? Do you think we, the people, actually have a say in this stuff? Instead of just throwing around opinions and criticisms, I would like to hear some plans, if y'all have any. As our current president said in the last debate "A plan does not consist of a litany of complaints." True words, I think.
 

Unintentional

Active Member
Messages
577
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

I again repeat, I don't know why Europe is so upset we fought back after being attacked on 9-11 by removing the Taliban from Afghanistan AND removing a murderous, terrorist friendly dictator in Iraq.

My conspiracy theory is: The US main stream media are mostly democrats (fact). They will slant every story if possible against the republican administration. The US main stream media is world wide (CNN, ABC, New York Times, AP, etc. etc.) This main stream media in doing its best to disuade Americans from Bush has turned the world as well against him, and by extension, America.

Now, I am voting Libertarian, but I know Bush will be reelected. When that happens, I only hope some Americans will stop with efforts to tear down America and join in the effort to fight terrorism.
 

Unintentional

Active Member
Messages
577
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

Originally posted by Ralan@Oct 16 2004, 10:30 AM

(Europe's hatred of America may)...have more to do with Europe's distaste for the US than the fact that they planned a terrorist act against themselves and went and kicked the crap out of the Arab States when they were running low on oil.


How did I miss that? You know it was Al-Queda that was based in Afghanistan that was allowed full run in Afghanistan by the Taliban that attacked the US on 9-11, don't you?

C'mon Ralan your smarter than that. Or mayby smarter than me. :unsure: For your benifit, although the jury in my mind did a test vote of 12 out of 12 that Al-Queda was behind 9-11, I will make them deliberate further to give you time to back that one up.

Friends? :kiss:
 

Ralan

Member
Messages
361
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

How did I miss that? You know it was Al-Queda that was based in Afghanistan that was allowed full run in Afghanistan by the Taliban that attacked the US on 9-11, don't you?

C'mon Ralan your smarter than that. Or mayby smarter than me. For your benifit, although the jury in my mind did a test vote of 12 out of 12 that Al-Queda was behind 9-11, I will make them deliberate further to give you time to back that one up.

First, whenever I am talking about the US, and saying 'they', I always mean the government, and never the people. In my mind, the citizens of all countries in the world are simply people of Earth. There are no countries, religions or wars in human nature; these were things that independant 'leaders' gave us.

The TV told me Al Queda was behind 9-11. Then the TV told me that George Bush was behind 9-11. Then the internet told me Al Queda was behind it but George Bush funded it. Then the TV told me the same thing. The truth is there is no truth. I don't trust the TV or the internet, so I give every version of the story equal merit. So my statement about Bush funding 9/11 was not strictly what I believe but rather one of the many things that I believe may or may not be the truth. I do however have a strong belief that George Bush went into the East for oil; from the actions of US presidents since the 40s this appears to be a kind of initiation into presidency action. I certainly meant no offense to anyone living in the US!
 

the Dane

New Member
Messages
3
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

Well put, Ralan and Fringan. I think your points very clearly demonstrate why most Europeans resent American politics and politicians.

KiraSjon: You're absolutely right, it is unfair to blame an entire people for the doings of their politicians. I think all this talk about Europeans hating Americans is mostly a media thing. We don't go around hating Americans - most of us don't "hate" anybody, I hope. But the media likes to draw these black-and-white pictures of things, so it becomes "all Europeans hate all Americans". The sad thing about such rhetorics is that it sometimes becomes self-fulfilling. The more people hear it, the more they start believing it. And "if they hate us then we certainly hate them!" :(

Many European politicians are pro-American and believe that we owe it to the US to support them, almost no matter what. Because they helped Europe during WWII. Without their help we would never have kicked Hitler's butt. And this is very true, but that was then - this is now. They are not the same politicians in power any more, and the system has changed since then.

The problem is that these politicians are not in tune with much of the European population who judge the US on their actions today, not on their merits in history. And what we see are the things which Ralan and Fringan listed earlier. The US administration seems to be demonstrating a bullying behavior in the world and a disregard for social, humanitarian, and environmental issues. How can the rest of the world not feel antagonized?

We don't have terrorist attacks in Sweden or Denmark - yet. But I'm afraid it is only a matter of time, because we are all getting sucked in. Most Danish politicians are pro-American, and they decided that Denmark should join the coalition in the Iraqi war, against the wishes of most of the Danish people. As a nation we are part of the system. This means I have to get used to the fact that there are people in the world who hate me - simply for who I am. No matter what I do, they will still be prepared to kill me. And this is a chilling thought.

Ralan: I wouldn't say I fear the threat of US culture to European culture. But I certainly don't like it. It is cultural imperialism to force one set of values upon the rest of us. Maybe I am too anti-progressive, but let me give you just one small example. Halloween is coming up soon. Now, in Denmark we have a similar tradition which takes place in February (the English word for this season is Shrovetide, according to my dictionary). I clearly remember this from my childhood, and it was great fun.

The old tradition still lives, but it is not nearly as popular as it used to be. Because today the tradition of Halloween has been introduced to the kids. The advertising industry even markets it under the name of Halloween, even though there is a perfectly good Danish word for Halloween! Now, why do we need to take over an American tradition, when we have an equivalent tradition of our own?

The reason is of course that the entire world today is controlled by big, international companies. With the globalization, the whole world is seen (more and more) as one big market. And they want to market the same products and services to the whole world at the same time, and to run their campaigns as effectively as possible. This is most cost efficient. OK, so the best way to do this is to standardize the markets all over the world. And since the most powerful big corporations are US based, everything is being standardized based on US values. Now, I can't be sure about this, but I think that many US marketing people are rather negligent of other countries. They are convinced we all think like Americans. Through my work I have experienced first-hand how Microsoft operates, and I have seen this way of thinking in effect here.

Or maybe they just don't give a damn, and think they can just ram it down our throats.

Sorry, I'm getting off target here. I could go on about this subject, so I'm afraid I got a little carried away. :D

Criticism and negativity is not very constructive. I think we all appreciate that the system is not something you can just go about and change. And the question is, change into what? A multi-party system is not so much better than a two-party system. In Denmark we have at present 8 parties in our parliament, and our govt. is a coalition of 2 parties with the support of one or two others. The result is that a strong leadership is impossible. No decisions or policies can be carried through without being watered down by compromises and patches.

I don't know if there is any solution. But I imagine that it would take a collective effort of the whole people to change things. It would take an independent candidate who was sincere and honest. And it would take the massive support of the people to get such a person elected and overthrow the existing system. But would that be possible....?

To wrap it all up; Personally I have nothing whatsoever against Americans as a people. When I was younger I was fascinated with the American history and the country as a whole. I was a strong believer in the ideal of freedom and opportunities. But today it really saddens me to see what the system has become. :cry:
 

Ralan

Member
Messages
361
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

Lovely post, Dane, I pretty much agree with everything you say.

You should check out 'The World' thread in the Lounge.
 

Unintentional

Active Member
Messages
577
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

With the looming crisis in Iran, what do you think the candidate would do if they won?

I think Badnarik would do nothing preemptive, but if Iran was actually so stupid to nuke anyone in NATO, they would immediately be bombarded with 100 nukes in response.

Bush, tired of trying to save the world, might just speciously not do anything unless the UN approved it to the letter. But if you believe the conspiracies, he might just be smart enough to provoke Iran to do something that will somehow make it seem okay to 51% of Americans to invade Iran.

I think Kerry and the others would do absolutely nothing unless the UN approved it first.

The problem with going to the UN, is the UN will never stop a country rich enough to bribe members on the security counsel from doing anything. France and Germany, being further than 1000 miles away from the closest border to Iran would probly easily be bought off with the same deal they got from Iraq. Since Russia is within 1000 miles of the nuclear capable missile that Iran just tested, perhaps they will unilaterally with only 70 allies make a preemptive strike this time.

Am I on target here? What do think YOUR candidate will do about Iran if he/she wins?
 

CaryP

Senior Member
Messages
1,432
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

Uni,

I think Bush is getting ready to back Israel in a pre-emptive stike on Iran. Sharon has him wrapped around his little finger according to Scowcroft, Bush Sr.'s former security advisor. Strike/battle groups are moving into position now. Iran has tested their latest missle with a 2,000 kilometer range, meaning they can hit anybody in the region. A warning call to all involved. Iran can hit our troops, Israel or anybody else who lines up with the US military. It's gonna be an interesting few weeks. Bush ain't tired of war. Hell, the Afghanistan and Iraq things are just the beginnings. Kerry has made a lot of noise about how he could prosecute the war better than Bush. But then again, they're cousins and Skull and Bones frat brothers. Kerry will continue the wars, institute a draft, and continue the same crap that Bush started. It's all part of the larger plan. Badnarik would probably pull all our troops home as soon as possible. But he ain't got a prayer of winning. I'm voting for him anyway. The rest of the "tribe" running, who knows. Nader would probably get us out of there ASAP. But he don't have a prayer either. Too bad for us.

Cary
 

Unintentional

Active Member
Messages
577
Most other sites are doing it so why don't we.

Originally posted by CaryP@Oct 22 2004, 07:04 PM
Uni,

I think Bush is getting ready to back Israel in a pre-emptive stike on Iran. Sharon has him wrapped around his little finger according to Scowcroft, Bush Sr.'s former security advisor. Strike/battle groups are moving into position now. Iran has tested their latest missle with a 2,000 kilometer range, meaning they can hit anybody in the region. A warning call to all involved. Iran can hit our troops, Israel or anybody else who lines up with the US military. It's gonna be an interesting few weeks. Bush ain't tired of war. Hell, the Afghanistan and Iraq things are just the beginnings. Kerry has made a lot of noise about how he could prosecute the war better than Bush. But then again, they're cousins and Skull and Bones frat brothers. Kerry will continue the wars, institute a draft, and continue the same crap that Bush started. It's all part of the larger plan. Badnarik would probably pull all our troops home as soon as possible. But he ain't got a prayer of winning. I'm voting for him anyway. The rest of the \"tribe\" running, who knows. Nader would probably get us out of there ASAP. But he don't have a prayer either. Too bad for us.

Cary

I prdict one morning before the election we will hear in the morning news, probly on Sunday that Israel has struck Irans missle production facility.
 

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