Debunking Ouija Boards.

[PaulaJedi]

The photo was taken at night, so it could well be a moonbeam coming in from one of those windows in the other picture, combined with the camera shake that you can see with the other light sources in the image, although the way it diverges is a little odd. That could be an artifact of the picture being taken with a low quality camera though. (Sorry, bit of a photography snob )

Other than that I'm not really qualified to dissect the photo, heh.

Moon light is possible. I haven't thought of that. I went back and tried to recreate it, but couldn't. (That time, I tried moving things in front of the camera, etc...). I can't make any solid claim on the photo, but if it can be solved I'll learn from it.

 

[PoisonApple]

Random question, did anyone ever start an EVP thread?

 

[PaulaJedi]

Random question, did anyone ever start an EVP thread?

I should have. I didn't.

 

[label]

Glad you decided to stay.

As mentioned in Techciple's first post, it's also possible that the person/people holding the pointer involuntarily moves it on their own without any physical stimulation. One outside force you left off the list is much more mundane: suggestion. It's possible for a combination of environment and the people around you to lead to you subconsciously move the pointer without realizing what you're doing. It's similar to how cold readers "read" the litle details like your facial expression, body language, etc., and choose their language and actions in such a way as to subtly manipulate you, or how a stage magician redirects your attention so you don't notice what they're actually doing.

As far as other forces, how would they be generated, stored and directed? Also, how exactly would you define "life energy"? Chemical energy stored in your cells? Electrical energy stored in your neurons? And how would you use those to influence another person?

Also, could you provide a link to the source for this statement? "...science have proven that life force have an effect on the brain and that each of us have the ability to "See sadness or feel tension"..."

First of you immediately accept that the an individual is being manipulated by another individual. By default right now your body is being manipulated by my words, by my actions, by my intuition also you are being manipulated by the electric lights, computer, air you breath and your surroundings without even noticing it.

Your brain is being manipulated by energy to create thought introduce reasoning and access past knowledge and your own intention. Where did all these things come from. This is happening inside you without any of us doing anything at all.

See even if you are the manipulator and your intention is to do X Y and Z the fact is that X Y and Z will happen. Now your own intention may be to debunk and or profit of a situation but what if the situation X Y and Z is manipulating you in thinking you are doing supposed action out of free will.

Minded thought has external sources almost like wireless internet. But it is so seamless so direct that you the transition of introduced thought and your own cannot be detected by the brain process. Examples are "a murderer having a moment of pity or even save a life" This we see in prison among other places.

In short it is the actions we do that goes against our character and yet it is a part of us. So in closing statement is even the manipulator can be manipulated by a situation. How will we define this? I have no idea and yet the proof is in hospitals, prisons and recovery stories. You cannot just blindly assume all of it is false that is simply not scientific.

As a last side note, before you can disproof something you need to study it. You can't just log on to the net copy and paste findings and say "there is my proof" where is your findings your experiments your input?

You cannot just deny something without doing the leg work. Imagine how much the scientific community would have lots if they simply said "nah someone said this does not exist why study it further"

think about that.

 

[Ayasano]

First of you immediately accept that the an individual is being manipulated by another individual. By default right now your body is being manipulated by my words, by my actions, by my intuition also you are being manipulated by the electric lights, computer, air you breath and your surroundings without even noticing it.

Yes, I would agree with that. Humans are basically complex machines, and all machines follow an "Input -> Function -> Output" system. The function just happens to be extremely complex in humans, and may or may not include "free will".

Your brain is being manipulated by energy to create thought introduce reasoning and access past knowledge and your own intention. Where did all these things come from. This is happening inside you without any of us doing anything at all.

Like I said above, humans are basically complex machines. Thoughts, intentions, memory, etc. are all just internal states of that machine. External input modifies that state and produces some output, like right now your input of this message is producing the output of my fingers pressing certain keys to type a return message. Even trying to rebel against that idea and exert "free will" is itself just a result of the function and the input you receive. Some people try to use QM as "proof" of free will, but in the end a random function is still a function, and no more choice is included than in a fixed function. (That doesn't really bother me though. It still feels like free will from the inside, even if it's just an illusion, and I enjoy life regardless)

Someone skilled in manipulation, and who knows how their target usually reacts, can influence that person to do things they want, although with such a complex internal system, and the possibility of randomness, the results are hardly ever exactly what you wanted, at least without extensive conditioning.

See even if you are the manipulator and your intention is to do X Y and Z the fact is that X Y and Z will happen. Now your own intention may be to debunk and or profit of a situation but what if the situation X Y and Z is manipulating you in thinking you are doing supposed action out of free will.

Minded thought has external sources almost like wireless internet. But it is so seamless so direct that you the transition of introduced thought and your own cannot be detected by the brain process. Examples are "a murderer having a moment of pity or even save a life" This we see in prison among other places.

In short it is the actions we do that goes against our character and yet it is a part of us. So in closing statement is even the manipulator can be manipulated by a situation. How will we define this? I have no idea and yet the proof is in hospitals, prisons and recovery stories. You cannot just blindly assume all of it is false that is simply not scientific.

The situation always manipulates you, and you manipulate the situation. It's one big feedback loop. Maybe there is an external force (a.k.a. a ghost) adding its own input into the situation, maybe there isn't, but that external force isn't necessarily needed for a ouija board's pointer to move.

As far as what I assume you're describing as unintentional telepathy goes, I would disagree that one person's mind can directly affect another. Things like subtle facial expressions, body language, etc. might, but there are no verified instances of it happening without one of these indirect routes available. (eg. from seperate soundproofed rooms. People have tried, but the results are always statistically insignificant)

As a last side note, before you can disproof something you need to study it. You can't just log on to the net copy and paste findings and say "there is my proof" where is your findings your experiments your input?

You cannot just deny something without doing the leg work. Imagine how much the scientific community would have lots if they simply said "nah someone said this does not exist why study it further"

think about that.

I don't have to personally experiment with something for it to be disproven. For example, plenty of observations by scientists have disproven geocentrism. I don't need to build a giant telescope to observe the planets myself for geocentrism to be wrong. It's wrong because that's how reality works.

And FYI the scientific community does do that. Biologists do not seek to prove physicists wrong or right, and physicists do not seek to prove psychologists wrong or right. (Excepting the occasional time when different fields cross over, of course)

I don't have the necessary training, equipment or education to do in-depth research into most of these kinds of things, and to be honest, neither do most of the people who argue on this forum. We all have our specializations, but for the most part, we know as much as the next guy.

For example, my specialization is computers, and to a more limited extent (I'm still learning) the nature of consciousness and intelligence, and how to combine the two fields. (In other words, I study AI) I know enough about physics and science in general to hold my own in an argument, but I don't have the tools to actually go out and make discoveries in those fields myself.

 

[label]

Yes, I would agree with that. Humans are basically complex machines, and all machines follow an "Input -> Function -> Output" system. The function just happens to be extremely complex in humans, and may or may not include "free will".

Like I said above, humans are basically complex machines. Thoughts, intentions, memory, etc. are all just internal states of that machine. External input modifies that state and produces some output, like right now your input of this message is producing the output of my fingers pressing certain keys to type a return message. Even trying to rebel against that idea and exert "free will" is itself just a result of the function and the input you receive. Some people try to use QM as "proof" of free will, but in the end a random function is still a function, and no more choice is included than in a fixed function. (That doesn't really bother me though. It still feels like free will from the inside, even if it's just an illusion, and I enjoy life regardless)

Someone skilled in manipulation, and who knows how their target usually reacts, can influence that person to do things they want, although with such a complex internal system, and the possibility of randomness, the results are hardly ever exactly what you wanted, at least without extensive conditioning.

The situation always manipulates you, and you manipulate the situation. It's one big feedback loop. Maybe there is an external force (a.k.a. a ghost) adding its own input into the situation, maybe there isn't, but that external force isn't necessarily needed for a ouija board's pointer to move.

As far as what I assume you're describing as unintentional telepathy goes, I would disagree that one person's mind can directly affect another. Things like subtle facial expressions, body language, etc. might, but there are no verified instances of it happening without one of these indirect routes available. (eg. from seperate soundproofed rooms. People have tried, but the results are always statistically insignificant)

I don't have to personally experiment with something for it to be disproven. For example, plenty of observations by scientists have disproven geocentrism. I don't need to build a giant telescope to observe the planets myself for geocentrism to be wrong. It's wrong because that's how reality works.

And FYI the scientific community does do that. Biologists do not seek to prove physicists wrong or right, and physicists do not seek to prove psychologists wrong or right. (Excepting the occasional time when different fields cross over, of course)

I don't have the necessary training, equipment or education to do in-depth research into most of these kinds of things, and to be honest, neither do most of the people who argue on this forum. We all have our specializations, but for the most part, we know as much as the next guy.

For example, my specialization is computers, and to a more limited extent (I'm still learning) the nature of consciousness and intelligence, and how to combine the two fields. (In other words, I study AI) I know enough about physics and science in general to hold my own in an argument, but I don't have the tools to actually go out and make discoveries in those fields myself.

A long time ago I use to be what you will call a mentalist in today's standards but not as glorified as the incredible people we see on TV today. Also I don't hypnotize people nor will I. I do have the skill but not the will to actually take someone and manipulate them to that degree.

But to a degree you have your guess work notes you pick up from the responses and you can use that to manipulate a situation and push it towards an outcome. Now I didn't con people with a Ouija board. No I used it to hide my other "disabilities" so that I could keep a job without them knowing that I have difficulty doing "things" you will accept as normal.

I use my skills to identify a companies need and price range and then come in with an offer they simply couldn't refuse because it was made around there needs and wants. Yes I would do tricks at the bar or shock people by telling them what they are thinking but really it is not that hard and well I am bad at it and you need only google to see who is really good at it.

But eventually people will realize the truth "my weaknesses" and I be off to find work again. So yes I am a manipulator sadly until people realize that "some mental conditions isn't a flaw and we can function normally" I have to do what I have to do in order to survive.

As for ghosts. There are electronic "sensitive" equipment that does record/display paranormal activity. It can no longer be ignored clearly there is something creating anomalies and there is enough there to say "yes" there really is "energy" and that "energy" is not behaving normally. More study will bring forth more results.

I mean you have your secret remote viewing experiments, behavior modification experiments and more will follow as government declassify these things. But if it is conclusive proof you want I suggest you do a bit of leg work because "your experience" is yours and you can introduce objective thought/reasoning because it is you that feel, see, hear and smell.

I think once you do that you will realize as I have. Some are out to con you others to hurt you but somethings are truly beyond the scope of conventional thought.

 

[Ayasano]

As for ghosts. There are electronic "sensitive" equipment that does record/display paranormal activity. It can no longer be ignored clearly there is something creating anomalies and there is enough there to say "yes" there really is "energy" and that "energy" is not behaving normally. More study will bring forth more results.

Well, to be exact, there are claims that electronic devices have picked up ghosts and such, but there have yet to be any claims that were actually verified by third parties.

I mean you have your secret remote viewing experiments, behavior modification experiments and more will follow as government declassify these things. But if it is conclusive proof you want I suggest you do a bit of leg work because "your experience" is yours and you can introduce objective thought/reasoning because it is you that feel, see, hear and smell.

The nature of experience is actually subjective, not objective, because everything is run through that internal function. You don't see the world as it is. Red, blue and green don't exist. What exists are different wavelengths of light that excite the cells in your retina, which send an electrical impulse into your visual cortex, which then interprets that signal as a colour. (That's a simplified explanation, obviously. Neuroscience is complicated)

It's the same for everything. Touch, smell, sound, taste, proprioception, balance, any of the multitude of other senses. They're all information that gets run through a filter. There also happens to be a lot of information, so your brains vastly simplifies it, putting you even further from objective reality. (If you've ever had sensory overload, that's the simplification filter breaking down)

This is why it's so damn hard to prove/disprove these things. What you see isn't necessarily what's there. What you think can be the sound of a ghost can actualy be a fabrication/alteration of your mind. "More of gravy than of grave." It happens every day without you even realizing it.

I think once you do that you will realize as I have. Some are out to con you others to hurt you but somethings are truly beyond the scope of conventional thought.

Nothing is truly beyond conventional thought. To claim that is to promote ignorance. Just because you don't understand it and can't explain it, doesn't mean someone else won't be able to.

 

[label]

Well, to be exact, there are claims that electronic devices have picked up ghosts and such, but there have yet to be any claims that were actually verified by third parties.

I am sorry the above is plain wrong.

Here is the thing I use to calibrate lab equipment as my first tech job. And this is what I don't get when an EMF meter shows a reading next to a power-box it is functioning normal but when it detects other anomalies "it is a claim" and yet it is still a calibrated instrument used in the electric industry today."fact"

Now you just simply say it is a claim? Then every single experiment ever done with that type of equipment by your definition is unsubstantiated. Do you think that is acceptable?

Truth is you accept the instrument reading as fact or you don't. you don't get to decide that "yes this reading is right" but "that reading is not right" just because it is an anomaly. By that logic Electromagnetic interference in itself must then be dismissed and I would love to see you convince people it is not real.Especially when almost all electronics is sensitive to it.

You are grabbing at straws now... think about that because everyone else is...

 

[Sanyam Deshi]

Well, to be exact, there are claims that electronic devices have picked up ghosts and such, but there have yet to be any claims that were actually verified by third parties.

I am sorry the above is plain wrong.

Here is the thing I use to calibrate lab equipment as my first tech job. And this is what I don't get when an EMF meter shows a reading next to a power-box it is functioning normal but when it detects other anomalies "it is a claim" and yet it is still a calibrated instrument used in the electric industry today."fact"

Now you just simply say it is a claim? Then every single experiment ever done with that type of equipment by your definition is unsubstantiated. Do you think that is acceptable?

Truth is you accept the instrument reading as fact or you don't. you don't get to decide that "yes this reading is right" but "that reading is not right" just because it is an anomaly. By that logic Electromagnetic interference in itself must then be dismissed and I would love to see you convince people it is not real.Especially when almost all electronics is sensitive to it.

You are grabbing at straws now... think about that because everyone else is...

I believe that you misunderstood Ayasano's post. Although anomalies have been detected, the claims that ghosts themselves caused these anomalies are unproven. Just because a scientific explanation can't be made for every situation doesn't mean it defaults the actual explanation to such situations to the supernatural.

Right now, what you are saying is:
EMF anomalies = Oh yeah, definitely something supernatural going on here.

But what I'm saying is:
EMF anomalies = I have no idea and I shouldn't assume that I do.

In conclusion, we shouldn't mix up beliefs with facts. I cannot prove the cause of many strange phenomenon, nor can I prove that many supernatural entities are non-existent, but I will not default to saying that the two are true and connected. You choose to believe that Ouija boards are the real deal. I believe that they aren't. As long as the word believe is included, I am fine with such a conclusion.

 

[Ayasano]

I believe that you misunderstood Ayasano's post. Although anomalies have been detected, the claims that ghosts themselves caused these anomalies are unproven. Just because a scientific explanation can't be made for every situation doesn't mean it defaults the actual explanation to such situations to the supernatural.

Right now, what you are saying is:
EMF anomalies = Oh yeah, definitely something supernatural going on here.

But what I'm saying is:
EMF anomalies = I have no idea and I shouldn't assume that I do.

Yes, this is basically what I was saying. Whenever you take a reading on any sort of equipment, you always have to interpret that reading based on a hypothesis of what it means. There's a separation between what the device senses and actual reality, just like there is with human senses. (Not just in paranormal situations, but in all of science)

An anomalous reading on an EMF reader, for example, could be a ghost, or it could be a loose wire. Or it could be magnetic rocks in the surrounding area. Or any of a hundred other explanations. You can't claim it's a ghost until you rule the other explanations out, because those explanations require far less assumptions. "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." If you rule them out? Then great, you have a real mystery on your hands and you can shout it from the rooftops.