Are We On the Path to Civil War?

[pauli]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

as for gay marriage , im gay and i know alot of other gay people and none of us or for that matter any one ive talked to wants to get married, yes we want leagal rights ,as would any domestic partner... i mean they don't have a problem collecting our tax dollars , thats taxation without reprentation, so yes if hes right , and i belive he is .... it may be what it will take to wake this county up... because if it keeps going this way then you will truley have a reason to feel fear...

Artsouth, seems like you are in the majority of your community. It is only the radical fringe, from what I understand, of the gay community that are trying to push the "marriage" thing through. In this, they are only shooting themselves in the foot because most people outside of the gay community are not going for the gay-marriage idea. If they would only try to do as you say and move toward more domestic partnership rights, I have no doubts that there would be little resistance. And, as far as I know a lot of those options are being granted as time continues to move forward. sigh But, my impression is that the radical gay fringe are not just trying for the domestic partnership rights, they are also trying to stick people in the eye because they are angry about their situation (whatever that means to them.) Sad, really.

As to whether this will create a Titor-type of rebellion/civil war - not gay marriage, but the social policies and all - that is a matter at this point for speculation. Throughout our history, we have had a lot of hot-topic social issues and they didn't lead to civil war, with the exception of State's Rights and slavery, so we will have to wait and see.

 

[Timmy G]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

Here's an interesting one. Surely, whichever way this one goes - it's gonna stir up some controversy. Is the US in a hurry to put one of their own into power in Iraq? Or, does G.W. not want to break any campaign promises?

:blink: HEY, what kind of voting machines are they using over there anyway? diebold?

Iraqi parties request poll delay

A group of leading Iraqi political parties has called for the 30 January national elections to be delayed. More than 15 groups - representing mostly Sunnis, Kurds and secular Iraqis - urged a six-month postponement. They say clashes between US-led forces and insurgents in Sunni areas could keep many from voting.

Iraq's electoral commission has agreed to consider the request on Saturday - but both the Iraqi and US governments have voiced doubts about a date change. Deputy Iraqi Prime Minister Barham Salih told BBC News he was keen for the elections to be held as scheduled - although he added that this would be a challenge.

US President Bush, for his part, said he "would hope they would go forward in January".

Complete article found HERE

 

[Mai]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

Originally posted by Cornelia@Nov 27 2004, 02:31 AM
Welcome to the plantation, Mai, Artsouth and Trism. We'd love to read your introductions in the introductions thread, if you feel like writing something!

Anyway, Mai,

people are completely certain of a great war or destruction that lies ahead. Titor was capitalizaing on these feelings and encouraging them.

Remember that Titor posted on Oct-Nov 2000, just before Bush election. 4 years ago nobody had that feeling of an apocalypse coming and so on. No 911 yet, no wars, nothing. Titor "prophecies" seemed simply odd, at the end of year 2000.

​

Thanks for the welcome, Cornelia I was not aware that this "feeling of doom" only started in the US after 9/11. It's always been this way here (I live in Israel), people pretty much accepted that some huge war will come up at some point. And Oct.-Nov. 2000 has been an exceptionally rough time over here. When I first read Titor's messages, it didn't seem surprising at all. I don't know why I thought these feelings were shared by everybody back then...

It must have been very weird, seeing such prophecies when everything seems to be so peaceful. I can definitely understand better now why some people run around trying to find a link to Titor whenever bad things happen, no matter how small: they never believed that anything could really happen, 9/11 caught them by surprise, and now they are trying to guard themselves.

 

[Darkwolf]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

I was not aware that this \"feeling of doom\" only started in the US after 9/11. It's always been this way here (I live in Israel), people pretty much accepted that some huge war will come up at some point. And Oct.-Nov. 2000 has been an exceptionally rough time over here. When I first read Titor's messages, it didn't seem surprising at all. I don't know why I thought these feelings were shared by everybody back then...

Welcome!! You could certianly add an interasting perspective here. There was some feeling of doom before the 2000 elections, but in my circle at the time, Bush was actually seen as an improvement, and the person who'd save civil rights. After all, the architects of WACO and dozens of smaller incidents that didn't get much press were out, and the "other side" was in. Unfortunatly, I've learned that there is not other side. Also, the threat that you Isralies have been facing for years has been brought home to us.

 

[Timmy G]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

Here's a post by "some dood" found at St. Louis Independant Media web site.
Web and page location found below.

I have taken the liberty to make bold the line I found most interesting; it relates to the topic of this thread. There are certainly many fingers pointing towards change through conflict. Who would have thought it possible back in '00 when JT was making his predictions?

Thoghts on Democracy and Sheep -

A lot of you are stunned, sitting there asking yourselves, ?How could this have happened? How could an obviously incompetent, deceitful president, with such a disastrous record, have possibly been elected?? Well, let me give you my opinion. The reason you are stunned is that you are approaching this situation as reasonable individuals who base their opinions on evidence. This is quite contrary to how humans often operate, despite our folk wisdom on the matter.

4 years of record job losses, record deficits, incredible environmental devastation, erosion of civil liberties, the worst intelligence failure in US history causing thousands of US deaths, blatant lies which catapulted us into an unnecessary war (costing tens of thousands of human lives), and the creation of an unprecedented level of hostility toward the US,

Many of you were quite confident that these factors (which do not by any means constitute an exhaustive list): taken together, would cause people to vote for almost ANYONE else, for nearly any other sort of ideology or set of policies. And of course, this is the rational position. If a course of action fails miserably, you try a different course. If a leader is inept, or worse, you get a new one. This flexibility, this ability to adapt to changing circumstances is humanity?s greatest asset.

Yet, the value of this most basic human quality seems to have been ignored. Somehow, seemingly inexplicably, people looked at this undeniably abysmal record and decided to continue it, to ?stay the course.? This tendency, an inability or refusal to change one?s actions despite a consistent failure for said actions to provide desired results, is considered by many theorists to be the hallmark of mental illness. Could it be that the entire nation has gone mad?

It is because even though we are in difficult times, you do not wish to surrender your individual thought in order to hide in the safety of the herd.

If you do not relate to them, consider it a testament to your strength. And by that I mean true strength; not the impotent, pathetic allegiance to a strong father figure that republicans call strength, but the type of rugged individualism that this nation used to value before we became overrun by the rationalizations of the spineless masses.

...If you are alienated today, do not despair. It is because you do not belong in the irrational herd. Unfortunately, in democracy, the unthinking masses often decide on stupid and disgusting policies. Let us just hope that eventually, despite the stench of fear which wafts onto all of us from the cowardly electorate, and despite the media oligarchy that obfuscates the facts of today?s America, things will become bad enough that that most basic human trait- the flexibility to adapt to negative circumstances- is reawakened.

None of us looks toward that outcome with pleasure. Yet, it is the only thing that may reawaken that most human of qualities and steer us away from infantile delusions. Idiotic, irrational opinions based on fear need to become shameful again, rather than heralded as a positive attribute. Perhaps we will see that day again, if people are able to rouse themselves from their current delusions.

The complete article can be found HERE

 

[Darkwolf]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

Speaking of the NWO, the new version of NAFTA looks real bad for us. Both on a personal and a national level. It seems that we are about to become zone two of the NWO.

http://www.stoptheftaa.org/default.html

 

[CaryP]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

This is currently being discussed in the mad cow scare thread, but it's off topic there, so I'll post it here. Titor said that misguided policies concerning the Middle East by the U.S. govt. would lead to all hell breaking loose. Well, the US Defense Dept. just issued a report that basically says the U.S. policy in Iraq and Afghanistan is FUBAR. Not much fanfare in the press, but is that so surprising. Basically, the report said what I've been saying about the Islamic jihadists, they hate our policies, not our "freedom" contrary to what Bushco spews forth.

Here's the link.

'They hate our policies, not our freedom'

Here's some excerpts from the article.

Late on the Wednesday afternoon before the Thanksgiving holiday, the US Defense Department released a report by the Defense Science Board that is highly critical of the administration's efforts in the war on terror and in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies [the report says]. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.'

The Pentagon released the study after The New York Times ran a story about the report in its Wednesday editions.

MSNBC notes that the report, in a comment that directly goes against statements made by President Bush and senior cabinet members, says the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have united otherwise-divided Muslim extremists and given terrorists organizations like Al Qaeda a boost by \"raising their stature.\"
In fact, Wired News reported the board as saying, the US has not only failed to separate \"the vast majority of nonviolent Muslims from the radical-militant Islamist-Jihadists,\" but American efforts may have \"achieved the opposite of what they intended.\"

As columnist Thomas Freidman of The New York Times wrote Monday in an opinion piece, the lack of planning and a 'clear channel of communication to the Muslim world' means that the US is losing the PR war to people that \"saw off the heads of other Muslims.\"

Wars are fought for political ends. Soldiers can only do so much. And the last mile in every war is about claiming the political fruits. The bad guys in Iraq can lose every mile on every road, but if they beat America on the last mile ? because they are able to intimidate better than America is able to coordinate, protect, inform, invest and motivate ? they will win and America will lose.

Outstanding. I wonder how long this will get any play, if any at all. Now that our own Defense Dept. is saying W's head is in a very dark place, that might be evidence enough to back up Titor's "prediction." I'm not a big Titor believer in terms of the TT part of his story. I'm in line with Paul, that Titor was in all probability a dissemination or possibly disinformation campaign by "those in the know".

Cary

 

[StarLord]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

So our Govt. needs to come clean and tell the rest of the world "Whoops! we're just here for the Gas, sorry for the confusion. Oh, and by the way, we will be building Bases here to protect Your interests Too!"

 

[Mai]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

Sometimes, there's no way of dealing with extremism other than military power. Western ways of thinking or diplomacy will not work here. These people are angry at your policies not because of the policies, but because they consider your government to be a threat to their final purpose, which is to establish an extremist Islamic Khalifa in all Muslim areas (their definition of a Muslim area is any area in which Muslims are now living or lived at any point in history).

Radical Muslims consider diplomatic efforts or concessions as weakness. They may accept your offers and concessions, but it will make you seem weak and vulnerable. When Muslims face an enemy who is not so willing to back off and "compromise", they consider him/her/them an enemy worthy of their attention. That is, in my opinion, one of the reasons Bush is hated-- he is seen as a real-life enemy (all infidels are enemies, but Bush is the only infidel who dared to stand his ground, regardless of whether his ideas/policies were right or wrong).
In my opinion, that is the aspect least understood in the West-- this extreme difference in the culture and ways of thinking. When more Americans learn the ways Muslims think, and the way their culture views wars and struggles, you will be better able to deal with all this.

As for Iraq-- Iraq is located in the center of the ME. If Bush will manage to stabilize it, it will give him a very good strategic point in dealing with the entire region. It's not just the oil-- it's the region itself. The Americans are trying very hard to increase their military involvement in the region, and Iraq is the best way to do it.

(Am I making any sense at all? sometimes I feel like I can't really explain what I want to say in English...)

 

[Cornelia]

Are We On the Path to Civil War?

LOL Mai!
Your english is far better than mine! Envy!

Anyway, our thoughts are very different, since I'm European and I don't agree with all this "clash of civilizations" talks. Any time in history someone said "they're evil!" and the result was just blood and slaughtering instead of peace.
I was in your country at the beginning of the '90s and everything was peaceful, no war, no intifada, we could go in Betlehem, Hebron and East Jerusalem without any trouble. I wholeheartedly loved your country, which is very special, and I think everybody in the world should go to see those forests between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. When I was told that people planted all those trees one by one, I almost fainted!
But now that mess will bring us all into a dark hole, and mankind won't recover so easily from that. I know you all hope to see an end, but outside of Israel people look at it like the beginning of Armageddon.
Let's hope for peace, but with no hope... @);-

Your fellow mediterranean

Cornelia