Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

[Harte]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

Whether he is a traitor intentionally or not; the last 8 years have been painfully horrendous. I usually pick my fights and this isn't one I want, and I don't want it with you.
I believe lying to send our children to die in a "senseless and neverending war" is treason.

Sorry, I just do.

Similar statements can be made about many other presidents, then.

In fact, using your definition, JFK was a traitor, as was LBJ.

Not that either one of those two particularly impressed me either!

At any rate, my point was about tit-for-tat in campaigns and the crocodile tears that the Democratic party cries if anyone dares to suggest that any of their candidates might not be the Second Coming.

The Dems calling Bush a murderer and traitor were not voicing a mere opinion, like you and I do. Besides, even if they were, how is that different that voicing the opinion that several of Obama's associates might be people an ordinary voter wouldn't want associated with their president (a supposedly underhanded attack ad?)

How does it differ from someone voicing the opinion that Obama's tax plan amounts to institutionalized dependency of the citizenry upon government handouts instead of self-reliance? (another supposedly underhanded attack ad?)

When does telling the truth (as one sees it) become uncalled-for mud-slinging?

Has anyone asserted that Obama has had illegitimate children with skanky sluts, as happened to both Thomas Jefferson and John McCain in previous campaigns?

Harte

 

[Harte]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

Whether he is a traitor intentionally or not; the last 8 years have been painfully horrendous. I usually pick my fights and this isn't one I want, and I don't want it with you.
I believe lying to send our children to die in a "senseless and neverending war" is treason.

Sorry, I just do.

Similar statements can be made about many other presidents, then.

In fact, using your definition, JFK was a traitor, as was LBJ.

Not that either one of those two particularly impressed me either!

At any rate, my point was about tit-for-tat in campaigns and the crocodile tears that the Democratic party cries if anyone dares to suggest that any of their candidates might not be the Second Coming.

The Dems calling Bush a murderer and traitor were not voicing a mere opinion, like you and I do. Besides, even if they were, how is that different that voicing the opinion that several of Obama's associates might be people an ordinary voter wouldn't want associated with their president (a supposedly underhanded attack ad?)

How does it differ from someone voicing the opinion that Obama's tax plan amounts to institutionalized dependency of the citizenry upon government handouts instead of self-reliance? (another supposedly underhanded attack ad?)

When does telling the truth (as one sees it) become uncalled-for mud-slinging?

Has anyone asserted that Obama has had illegitimate children with skanky sluts, as happened to both Thomas Jefferson and John McCain in previous campaigns?

Harte

 

[gonzogirl]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

When I hear people say Bush is a traitor I think of it in the sense that he is a traitor to the people, he went back on so many promises...He was all about compassionate conservativsm and I think people feel betrayed that he helped propel the Coservative machine as we know it today. I have looked at both parties and I say that I am a proud independent. Of the two, I favor the Democratic party.
I started to pay attention to politics around the age of 18..when I voted for Reagan. Yes, Regan. I thought everything he said economically made sense.
He was wrong. He had the right intention. But now we see the effects. To deregulate the marketplace and leave the Corporations to police themselves is just stupid. No I am not for Gov. to own things..I am not even for the bail out...
Now this mudslinging issue I have to talk about because I have really been watching this stuff. Of the two parties, the Republicans are by far dirtier and nastier.
When looked at in a truly objective way one cant come to any other conclusion.
The stuff that I have been hearing has saddened me. The robocalls. Mcain says that he has told people no at the rallies when they shout that Obama is a terrorist. OK fine but then in the next sentence he is saying.." Barack HUSSIEN Obama wants to...." Why include his middle name? So that Mccain can interject fear into the minds of people while saying correctly that he tells people not to call Obama a terrorist. The racism at the rallies is shocking. When you see the rallies in whole and not edited, they are dissapointing. These people seem to have an anger that is scary. I have not seen anything like that come from the dems. Not to this magnitude.
And Liz Dole aught to be f-ing ashamed of herself. Desperation can make people ugly.
Harte: I know both parties do this mudslinging but the GOP has made it such an ugly art that they have no choice but to start to do better. What I would like to see is the Republicans to go back to being the great party that they were. The GOP could really use this moment in history to start to change back to what they were.
They are responsible for some of the greatest moments in history for civil rights. Like to see that attitude again.
All of this is like high school....Drama Drama Drama. Rich popular kids trying to rule...the freaks and geeks just wanting to get by. That whole eighties thing...greed is good. Yeah what a crock.

This very important and means alot to me..When mccain talks about "wealth redistribution".. it pisses my off! We are talking about taxes, mccain you liar.
Mccain says Obama wants to take your money and give it to the people who refuse to work, the ones who dont pay taxes!
Well the bottom earners dont pay taxes. Thats true. This who we are talking about. Thes people who want to do better. These are the people who are villified..These are the people that SUPPORT WALMART! I work with those people everyday. Those are the people with Downs Syndrome who work but dont earn enough to pay the whole rent. They are on the bus rain or shine. Its the women who escape a batterd life and go through a program to get them off the floor and on their feet on their way to paying taxes one day. Its the man or woman who has to be retrained for employment because they were hurt in the war and find themselves not covered by the gov. insurance they have. Its the eighteen year old who was born with fetal alchohal syndrome who cant read or write and needs to stop being a stripper, they need to be trained and given support. Its the old woman who needs to be trained for employment because she has a dead husband and no 401k and because of her own sexist lifestyle, no skills. Its the parapeligic who works but cant pay for his new lift that the insurance wont cover.
These people are not all on the couch at home doing drugs or eating chips. Most want a chance and I have seen great things done and the sacrifices that have been made. I witness the change in people everyday. I see fraud too. But I see more positive changes than neg. I see people empowering themselves and seeing their worth.
I was one of THOSE people that Mccain is talking about and now I work with these people. These people were either born with all their disadvantages or they are self created or they are a vicitm of something. Whatever...they deserve at least one chance.
Given the chance most strive to be wage earners who PAY TAXES!!

 

[gonzogirl]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

When I hear people say Bush is a traitor I think of it in the sense that he is a traitor to the people, he went back on so many promises...He was all about compassionate conservativsm and I think people feel betrayed that he helped propel the Coservative machine as we know it today. I have looked at both parties and I say that I am a proud independent. Of the two, I favor the Democratic party.
I started to pay attention to politics around the age of 18..when I voted for Reagan. Yes, Regan. I thought everything he said economically made sense.
He was wrong. He had the right intention. But now we see the effects. To deregulate the marketplace and leave the Corporations to police themselves is just stupid. No I am not for Gov. to own things..I am not even for the bail out...
Now this mudslinging issue I have to talk about because I have really been watching this stuff. Of the two parties, the Republicans are by far dirtier and nastier.
When looked at in a truly objective way one cant come to any other conclusion.
The stuff that I have been hearing has saddened me. The robocalls. Mcain says that he has told people no at the rallies when they shout that Obama is a terrorist. OK fine but then in the next sentence he is saying.." Barack HUSSIEN Obama wants to...." Why include his middle name? So that Mccain can interject fear into the minds of people while saying correctly that he tells people not to call Obama a terrorist. The racism at the rallies is shocking. When you see the rallies in whole and not edited, they are dissapointing. These people seem to have an anger that is scary. I have not seen anything like that come from the dems. Not to this magnitude.
And Liz Dole aught to be f-ing ashamed of herself. Desperation can make people ugly.
Harte: I know both parties do this mudslinging but the GOP has made it such an ugly art that they have no choice but to start to do better. What I would like to see is the Republicans to go back to being the great party that they were. The GOP could really use this moment in history to start to change back to what they were.
They are responsible for some of the greatest moments in history for civil rights. Like to see that attitude again.
All of this is like high school....Drama Drama Drama. Rich popular kids trying to rule...the freaks and geeks just wanting to get by. That whole eighties thing...greed is good. Yeah what a crock.

This very important and means alot to me..When mccain talks about "wealth redistribution".. it pisses my off! We are talking about taxes, mccain you liar.
Mccain says Obama wants to take your money and give it to the people who refuse to work, the ones who dont pay taxes!
Well the bottom earners dont pay taxes. Thats true. This who we are talking about. Thes people who want to do better. These are the people who are villified..These are the people that SUPPORT WALMART! I work with those people everyday. Those are the people with Downs Syndrome who work but dont earn enough to pay the whole rent. They are on the bus rain or shine. Its the women who escape a batterd life and go through a program to get them off the floor and on their feet on their way to paying taxes one day. Its the man or woman who has to be retrained for employment because they were hurt in the war and find themselves not covered by the gov. insurance they have. Its the eighteen year old who was born with fetal alchohal syndrome who cant read or write and needs to stop being a stripper, they need to be trained and given support. Its the old woman who needs to be trained for employment because she has a dead husband and no 401k and because of her own sexist lifestyle, no skills. Its the parapeligic who works but cant pay for his new lift that the insurance wont cover.
These people are not all on the couch at home doing drugs or eating chips. Most want a chance and I have seen great things done and the sacrifices that have been made. I witness the change in people everyday. I see fraud too. But I see more positive changes than neg. I see people empowering themselves and seeing their worth.
I was one of THOSE people that Mccain is talking about and now I work with these people. These people were either born with all their disadvantages or they are self created or they are a vicitm of something. Whatever...they deserve at least one chance.
Given the chance most strive to be wage earners who PAY TAXES!!

 

[Harte]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

When I hear people say Bush is a traitor I think of it in the sense that he is a traitor to the people, he went back on so many promises...He was all about compassionate conservativsm and I think people feel betrayed that he helped propel the Coservative machine as we know it today. I have looked at both parties and I say that I am a proud independent. Of the two, I favor the Democratic party.
I started to pay attention to politics around the age of 18..when I voted for Reagan. Yes, Regan. I thought everything he said economically made sense.
He was wrong. He had the right intention. But now we see the effects. To deregulate the marketplace and leave the Corporations to police themselves is just stupid.

Gonzo,

The "deregulation" that caused the current financial meltdown began with new regulations forcing mortgage companies to free up more loans to people that are bad risks - IOW, make loans to people that (for the most part) are unlikely to pay. This was begun as a Democratic program under President Jimmy Carter. It really took off when Bill Clinton forced regulators to start enforcing the mandate.

Bush had nothing to do with it (though you wouldn't By God know that if you listen to political ads these days - from both sides!), neither did Reagan, neither did Conservatives.

Now this mudslinging issue I have to talk about because I have really been watching this stuff. Of the two parties, the Republicans are by far dirtier and nastier.
When looked at in a truly objective way one cant come to any other conclusion.
The stuff that I have been hearing has saddened me. The robocalls. Mcain says that he has told people no at the rallies when they shout that Obama is a terrorist. OK fine but then in the next sentence he is saying.." Barack HUSSIEN Obama wants to...." Why include his middle name? So that Mccain can interject fear into the minds of people while saying correctly that he tells people not to call Obama a terrorist.

Please, do you think that if McCain's middle name was Adolphitler that the Democrats wouldn't constantly refer to him that way?

Don't be so naive. Both parties are equally bad, there is simply no way around this fact.

Obama has a lead that is comfortable enough that he need not attack McCain. I guarantee you that if it were a close race - you'd see it from both sides - just like you did during the campaign for the Democratic nomination.

The racism at the rallies is shocking. When you see the rallies in whole and not edited, they are dissapointing. These people seem to have an anger that is scary. I have not seen anything like that come from the dems.

Racism is ugly everywhere.

Let me ask you this. If John McCain's early career was helped by an individual that admitted he'd bombed abortion clinics, and had in fact said that he wished he had bombed more of them, do you think it would be a legitimate point for the Democrats to bring up?

William Ayers said these things about government installations.

What, exactly, is the difference?

Harte: I know both parties do this mudslinging but the GOP has made it such an ugly art that they have no choice but to start to do better. What I would like to see is the Republicans to go back to being the great party that they were. The GOP could really use this moment in history to start to change back to what they were.
They are responsible for some of the greatest moments in history for civil rights. Like to see that attitude again.

Do you have any examples of this so-called "mudslinging?" Are you saying that referring to a candidate by his full name is "mudslinging?"

I say it's trying to use everything you can to your advantage.

I haven't heard a single thing the McCain campaign has put out about Obama that wasn't a legitimate point. Compare that to the crap people said about Palin, how she shouldn't have considered running because of her special needs child, how she should have
freakin aborted her baby for God's Sake!

How is that relevant? Yet it was a topic for a couple of weeks, constantly being harped on by the dried up lesbian old lady feminist (former) "movement" that only "moves" now to push their own liberal political agenda that has nothing whatsoever to do with women's issues.

NO? Where were these women when all their "sisters" were saying Clinton had groped them - the very thing the feminists started out trying to address!

Why did they state that a serious, intelligent and successgful woman like Sara Palin should have recused herself from the election?

Why did they judge her for her " CHOICE!!!" to not abort her baby?

Both sides are loaded with hypocrisy. Switch labels and you couldn't even taste the difference.

This very important and means alot to me..When mccain talks about "wealth redistribution".. it pisses my off! We are talking about taxes, mccain you liar.
Mccain says Obama wants to take your money and give it to the people who refuse to work, the ones who dont pay taxes!
Well the bottom earners dont pay taxes. Thats true. This who we are talking about. Thes people who want to do better. These are the people who are villified..These are the people that SUPPORT WALMART! I work with those people everyday. Those are the people with Downs Syndrome who work but dont earn enough to pay the whole rent. They are on the bus rain or shine. Its the women who escape a batterd life and go through a program to get them off the floor and on their feet on their way to paying taxes one day. Its the man or woman who has to be retrained for employment because they were hurt in the war and find themselves not covered by the gov. insurance they have. Its the eighteen year old who was born with fetal alchohal syndrome who cant read or write and needs to stop being a stripper, they need to be trained and given support. Its the old woman who needs to be trained for employment because she has a dead husband and no 401k and because of her own sexist lifestyle, no skills. Its the parapeligic who works but cant pay for his new lift that the insurance wont cover.
These people are not all on the couch at home doing drugs or eating chips. Most want a chance and I have seen great things done and the sacrifices that have been made. I witness the change in people everyday. I see fraud too. But I see more positive changes than neg. I see people empowering themselves and seeing their worth.
I was one of THOSE people that Mccain is talking about and now I work with these people. These people were either born with all their disadvantages or they are self created or they are a vicitm of something. Whatever...they deserve at least one chance.
Given the chance most strive to be wage earners who PAY TAXES!!

Obama has not put forward any plan to do any of the things you list above. Taking money from "rich" people that make over 250,000 (as a couple)
and giving it to people that don't even pay taxes is a disincentive for the really rich people to keep their money in this country.

You enjoy selling all that crap from China, where it is made by people making around 1/20 of what Americans used to earn while making the very same stuff?

I worked most of my life in places where stuff gets made, with the idea that it would be sold. I've seen companies go under because of the tax situation in this country.

Care to guess what happened to the employees at these companies?

Why is it the working man's job to carry non workers on his back? I mean, this is already the case now. What, exactly, is the argument that we aren't "doing enough" for poor people? And then what - exactly - would be "enough?"

It's easy for a rich guy to move his company to China or Mexico because his new tax rate will cost him a million more a year.

In the meantime, regular people making 250,000 as a couple will be stuck here because their incomes are based on their jobs, not companies they started. They will continue to pay money out of their pockets to people that made bad choices in life and that will continue to make bad choices until somebody takes the time to demonstrate that bad choices (eventually) have bad consequences.

Now this, for me, is not about raising taxes. If Obama wants to raise taxes to pay down the debt, I disagree that it would work but I would applaud him for at least trying to do something about a real problem that will swallow everyone, no matter how much income you plan to "redistribute" to the poor in the future.

But that's not what it is about. It is about a naked ploy to buy votes, exactly the same thing Clinton did in his first campaign.

Fortunately for the country, it will never happen anyway because any tax increase will have to go to service our debt for the forseeable future because of the new debt taken on re the Iraq war and the financial bailout.

And anyway - giving money to the poor only creates more poor people. Check the results of LBJ's war on poverty and you'll find that, despite trillions of giveaway dollars, poverty won that war.

The line for free money never, ever gets shorter. Never.

Harte

 

[Harte]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

When I hear people say Bush is a traitor I think of it in the sense that he is a traitor to the people, he went back on so many promises...He was all about compassionate conservativsm and I think people feel betrayed that he helped propel the Coservative machine as we know it today. I have looked at both parties and I say that I am a proud independent. Of the two, I favor the Democratic party.
I started to pay attention to politics around the age of 18..when I voted for Reagan. Yes, Regan. I thought everything he said economically made sense.
He was wrong. He had the right intention. But now we see the effects. To deregulate the marketplace and leave the Corporations to police themselves is just stupid.

Gonzo,

The "deregulation" that caused the current financial meltdown began with new regulations forcing mortgage companies to free up more loans to people that are bad risks - IOW, make loans to people that (for the most part) are unlikely to pay. This was begun as a Democratic program under President Jimmy Carter. It really took off when Bill Clinton forced regulators to start enforcing the mandate.

Bush had nothing to do with it (though you wouldn't By God know that if you listen to political ads these days - from both sides!), neither did Reagan, neither did Conservatives.

Now this mudslinging issue I have to talk about because I have really been watching this stuff. Of the two parties, the Republicans are by far dirtier and nastier.
When looked at in a truly objective way one cant come to any other conclusion.
The stuff that I have been hearing has saddened me. The robocalls. Mcain says that he has told people no at the rallies when they shout that Obama is a terrorist. OK fine but then in the next sentence he is saying.." Barack HUSSIEN Obama wants to...." Why include his middle name? So that Mccain can interject fear into the minds of people while saying correctly that he tells people not to call Obama a terrorist.

Please, do you think that if McCain's middle name was Adolphitler that the Democrats wouldn't constantly refer to him that way?

Don't be so naive. Both parties are equally bad, there is simply no way around this fact.

Obama has a lead that is comfortable enough that he need not attack McCain. I guarantee you that if it were a close race - you'd see it from both sides - just like you did during the campaign for the Democratic nomination.

The racism at the rallies is shocking. When you see the rallies in whole and not edited, they are dissapointing. These people seem to have an anger that is scary. I have not seen anything like that come from the dems.

Racism is ugly everywhere.

Let me ask you this. If John McCain's early career was helped by an individual that admitted he'd bombed abortion clinics, and had in fact said that he wished he had bombed more of them, do you think it would be a legitimate point for the Democrats to bring up?

William Ayers said these things about government installations.

What, exactly, is the difference?

Harte: I know both parties do this mudslinging but the GOP has made it such an ugly art that they have no choice but to start to do better. What I would like to see is the Republicans to go back to being the great party that they were. The GOP could really use this moment in history to start to change back to what they were.
They are responsible for some of the greatest moments in history for civil rights. Like to see that attitude again.

Do you have any examples of this so-called "mudslinging?" Are you saying that referring to a candidate by his full name is "mudslinging?"

I say it's trying to use everything you can to your advantage.

I haven't heard a single thing the McCain campaign has put out about Obama that wasn't a legitimate point. Compare that to the crap people said about Palin, how she shouldn't have considered running because of her special needs child, how she should have
freakin aborted her baby for God's Sake!

How is that relevant? Yet it was a topic for a couple of weeks, constantly being harped on by the dried up lesbian old lady feminist (former) "movement" that only "moves" now to push their own liberal political agenda that has nothing whatsoever to do with women's issues.

NO? Where were these women when all their "sisters" were saying Clinton had groped them - the very thing the feminists started out trying to address!

Why did they state that a serious, intelligent and successgful woman like Sara Palin should have recused herself from the election?

Why did they judge her for her " CHOICE!!!" to not abort her baby?

Both sides are loaded with hypocrisy. Switch labels and you couldn't even taste the difference.

This very important and means alot to me..When mccain talks about "wealth redistribution".. it pisses my off! We are talking about taxes, mccain you liar.
Mccain says Obama wants to take your money and give it to the people who refuse to work, the ones who dont pay taxes!
Well the bottom earners dont pay taxes. Thats true. This who we are talking about. Thes people who want to do better. These are the people who are villified..These are the people that SUPPORT WALMART! I work with those people everyday. Those are the people with Downs Syndrome who work but dont earn enough to pay the whole rent. They are on the bus rain or shine. Its the women who escape a batterd life and go through a program to get them off the floor and on their feet on their way to paying taxes one day. Its the man or woman who has to be retrained for employment because they were hurt in the war and find themselves not covered by the gov. insurance they have. Its the eighteen year old who was born with fetal alchohal syndrome who cant read or write and needs to stop being a stripper, they need to be trained and given support. Its the old woman who needs to be trained for employment because she has a dead husband and no 401k and because of her own sexist lifestyle, no skills. Its the parapeligic who works but cant pay for his new lift that the insurance wont cover.
These people are not all on the couch at home doing drugs or eating chips. Most want a chance and I have seen great things done and the sacrifices that have been made. I witness the change in people everyday. I see fraud too. But I see more positive changes than neg. I see people empowering themselves and seeing their worth.
I was one of THOSE people that Mccain is talking about and now I work with these people. These people were either born with all their disadvantages or they are self created or they are a vicitm of something. Whatever...they deserve at least one chance.
Given the chance most strive to be wage earners who PAY TAXES!!

Obama has not put forward any plan to do any of the things you list above. Taking money from "rich" people that make over 250,000 (as a couple)
and giving it to people that don't even pay taxes is a disincentive for the really rich people to keep their money in this country.

You enjoy selling all that crap from China, where it is made by people making around 1/20 of what Americans used to earn while making the very same stuff?

I worked most of my life in places where stuff gets made, with the idea that it would be sold. I've seen companies go under because of the tax situation in this country.

Care to guess what happened to the employees at these companies?

Why is it the working man's job to carry non workers on his back? I mean, this is already the case now. What, exactly, is the argument that we aren't "doing enough" for poor people? And then what - exactly - would be "enough?"

It's easy for a rich guy to move his company to China or Mexico because his new tax rate will cost him a million more a year.

In the meantime, regular people making 250,000 as a couple will be stuck here because their incomes are based on their jobs, not companies they started. They will continue to pay money out of their pockets to people that made bad choices in life and that will continue to make bad choices until somebody takes the time to demonstrate that bad choices (eventually) have bad consequences.

Now this, for me, is not about raising taxes. If Obama wants to raise taxes to pay down the debt, I disagree that it would work but I would applaud him for at least trying to do something about a real problem that will swallow everyone, no matter how much income you plan to "redistribute" to the poor in the future.

But that's not what it is about. It is about a naked ploy to buy votes, exactly the same thing Clinton did in his first campaign.

Fortunately for the country, it will never happen anyway because any tax increase will have to go to service our debt for the forseeable future because of the new debt taken on re the Iraq war and the financial bailout.

And anyway - giving money to the poor only creates more poor people. Check the results of LBJ's war on poverty and you'll find that, despite trillions of giveaway dollars, poverty won that war.

The line for free money never, ever gets shorter. Never.

Harte

 

[gonzogirl]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

Palin can read a teleprompter..thats about it. Both parties are not equally bad and I think the GOP has figured out that maybe nice guys CAN finish first! The GOP needs to go back to what made it great. The Bush admin did not create the crisis we see today. 75% of ALL media is owned by Coservative interests. The attitude of Bush when he intimidates his press corps. The air in Washington is laden ith oppression. When we have no free press and this forum is one of the only "honest" places to talk we are in trouble. Major media has been hijacked and with a well though out long term plan.

Harte:You make it sound like people are looking at poor people and saying.."wow..I want to be like that..I want to try and live off of $500 a month. Always on the edge of homelessness. Yeah thats for me."
Drugs, alchahol and no education make poor people.
I listed all of the people that programs for the poor benefit and you seem not to have noticed. The attitude that conservatives have had about the poor are mean spirited. Not every poor person is some lazy ass like you imply. Should society stop helping people because some are frauds?
When I make 20,000 dollars a year I pay more taxes than the top corparations.
Yet I understand the need for the incentive to give to these corparations to employ people and give them benefits.If I can understand that then why cant you understand the points that I make about the poor.
Stigma.
Its a battle that will never be won.
The rules on welfare and other "giveouts" that the gov has, have been tightened and probably need more tightening and enforcing. Great but lets give people a chance.
While I work with the disadvantaged I have noticed that the drug addicts/drunks/frauds get a little bit of money, but then fade away into the streets. The ones that stick through the programs are the ones who REALLY want it. The grateful ones.
The ones who want to be role models for their kids. Who see the government as giving them a chance in a lifetime and there is no way they are gonna mess it up.
I know women who were drug addict last year and now they work at county buildings and are going for their degrees..Because they can now fill out student financial aid. Because they are off drugs now. They are paying into the system from which they took.
While im at it. I am starting to try to get Clackamas county to take men more seriously. It has come to my absolute attention that there are a lot of men who have been living a drug lifestyle with their partners and now they are clean.
The women they have a kid with chooses not to be clean. These men need to be given custody and trained for employment. Oregon right now sees men as people who are last on the list, but with all the drug abuse ggoing on ...more men are stepping up to the plate to take care of theirs. And are having trouble even getting custody. Sexist attitude needs to change. anyway....

Harte we will always disagree(on this issue anyway) and it sure is nice to have a civil conversation with you. You are mostly prepared and I talk off the top of my head. Can U imagine if I got organized? (up in my brain?)I might make sense?lol

 

[gonzogirl]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

Palin can read a teleprompter..thats about it. Both parties are not equally bad and I think the GOP has figured out that maybe nice guys CAN finish first! The GOP needs to go back to what made it great. The Bush admin did not create the crisis we see today. 75% of ALL media is owned by Coservative interests. The attitude of Bush when he intimidates his press corps. The air in Washington is laden ith oppression. When we have no free press and this forum is one of the only "honest" places to talk we are in trouble. Major media has been hijacked and with a well though out long term plan.

Harte:You make it sound like people are looking at poor people and saying.."wow..I want to be like that..I want to try and live off of $500 a month. Always on the edge of homelessness. Yeah thats for me."
Drugs, alchahol and no education make poor people.
I listed all of the people that programs for the poor benefit and you seem not to have noticed. The attitude that conservatives have had about the poor are mean spirited. Not every poor person is some lazy ass like you imply. Should society stop helping people because some are frauds?
When I make 20,000 dollars a year I pay more taxes than the top corparations.
Yet I understand the need for the incentive to give to these corparations to employ people and give them benefits.If I can understand that then why cant you understand the points that I make about the poor.
Stigma.
Its a battle that will never be won.
The rules on welfare and other "giveouts" that the gov has, have been tightened and probably need more tightening and enforcing. Great but lets give people a chance.
While I work with the disadvantaged I have noticed that the drug addicts/drunks/frauds get a little bit of money, but then fade away into the streets. The ones that stick through the programs are the ones who REALLY want it. The grateful ones.
The ones who want to be role models for their kids. Who see the government as giving them a chance in a lifetime and there is no way they are gonna mess it up.
I know women who were drug addict last year and now they work at county buildings and are going for their degrees..Because they can now fill out student financial aid. Because they are off drugs now. They are paying into the system from which they took.
While im at it. I am starting to try to get Clackamas county to take men more seriously. It has come to my absolute attention that there are a lot of men who have been living a drug lifestyle with their partners and now they are clean.
The women they have a kid with chooses not to be clean. These men need to be given custody and trained for employment. Oregon right now sees men as people who are last on the list, but with all the drug abuse ggoing on ...more men are stepping up to the plate to take care of theirs. And are having trouble even getting custody. Sexist attitude needs to change. anyway....

Harte we will always disagree(on this issue anyway) and it sure is nice to have a civil conversation with you. You are mostly prepared and I talk off the top of my head. Can U imagine if I got organized? (up in my brain?)I might make sense?lol

 

[Harte]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

Harte:You make it sound like people are looking at poor people and saying.."wow..I want to be like that..I want to try and live off of $500 a month. Always on the edge of homelessness. Yeah thats for me."
Drugs, alchahol and no education make poor people.

The governmment should do more for the poor then? Let's agree on this, given that the "poor" are poor for reasons other than choice.

You are aware, right, that the people you listed in your post as needing help really don't need help?

I mean, there is lifetime disability for Down's Syndrome victims. Welfare to work programs have worked pretty well. There are food stamps, AFDC, Social Security disability benefits, unemployment compensation. There are college tuition grants, there are various local programs as well.

These people are working, meaning that they all qualify for the earned income credit - that's thousands of dollars a year in free money right there.

Where do you draw the line? I mean, so what if some person is trying to live off 500.00 per month? Why are they doing this is the more pertinant question.

99 times out of a hundred it's because of bad choices they've made in their lives. If you allow no bad consequences for bad choices, what, again, is the incentive for making good choices?

Now, remember, we agreed that the government maybe should do more for poor people? What do you think they should do? Hand out money? Who's money? Why should somebody that tried hard all their life to make the right choices, and succeeded at doing this, be held responsible to give free handouts to people that never tried to do it right? Even if the poor person has seen the error of their ways, I am of the opinion that actions (or inactions) have actual consequences. I don't feel responsible for saving someone from the consequences of their own actions. I don't even do this for my own kids. If I did, I would be a failure as a father, IMO.

Why do the poor feel like they "deserve" somebody else's money?

I listed all of the people that programs for the poor benefit and you seem not to have noticed. The attitude that conservatives have had about the poor are mean spirited. Not every poor person is some lazy ass like you imply. Should society stop helping people because some are frauds?
When I make 20,000 dollars a year I pay more taxes than the top corparations.

First of all, that claim is completely baseless.

Nobody making 20,000 a year is paying much (if any) tax on their income. If they are, they should go to H&R Block. They are in a bracket that there should be no tax on.

Secondly, the idea that any poor individual pays more tax that any corporation is simply a urban legend. That certainly does not happen. Are you aware that every employer pays exactly half of the social security and medicaid taxes on each employee?

When you look at your paystub, check how much your FICA is. Know that your employee is paying the same amount as you - all in your name.

If a company can structure themselves to pay no income tax, that is because the structure they have adopted benefits the United States in some other way. Corporate tax rates aren't "loopholed" for no reason by the Feds.

Yet I understand the need for the incentive to give to these corparations to employ people and give them benefits.If I can understand that then why cant you understand the points that I make about the poor.
Stigma.
Its a battle that will never be won.

I do understand them. I also understand that none of the programs you mention have anything to do with taking money from the rich - via the IRS - and handing it over to people that don't pay taxes - again via the IRS.

If you want more help for the deserving poor, then update the legislation that created the entitlement they now operate under so to increase payments to them. What Obama is doing is saying "Vote for me and I'll send you a check!!"

The rules on welfare and other "giveouts" that the gov has, have been tightened and probably need more tightening and enforcing. Great but lets give people a chance.
While I work with the disadvantaged I have noticed that the drug addicts/drunks/frauds get a little bit of money, but then fade away into the streets. The ones that stick through the programs are the ones who REALLY want it. The grateful ones.
The ones who want to be role models for their kids. Who see the government as giving them a chance in a lifetime and there is no way they are gonna mess it up.
I know women who were drug addict last year and now they work at county buildings and are going for their degrees..Because they can now fill out student financial aid. Because they are off drugs now. They are paying into the system from which they took.

So, is somebody advocating that these programs be shut down? Does Obama's idea to "spread the wealth" include increased student financial aid? If so, he hasn't said so. I wonder why. Probably because saying "Vote for me and I'll marginally increase aid for college students as long as they are passing their classes" won't persuade as many voters as "Vote for me and I'll send you a Gummint check!!!"

While im at it. I am starting to try to get Clackamas county to take men more seriously. It has come to my absolute attention that there are a lot of men who have been living a drug lifestyle with their partners and now they are clean.
The women they have a kid with chooses not to be clean. These men need to be given custody and trained for employment. Oregon right now sees men as people who are last on the list, but with all the drug abuse ggoing on ...more men are stepping up to the plate to take care of theirs. And are having trouble even getting custody. Sexist attitude needs to change. anyway....

GG,

that's great and all, but if you really wanted to make a difference, you might look into finding the reason that nobody is prosecuted for statutory rape when a 13 ior 14 y.o. gets pregnant.

Harte we will always disagree(on this issue anyway) and it sure is nice to have a civil conversation with you. You are mostly prepared and I talk off the top of my head. Can U imagine if I got organized? (up in my brain?)I might make sense?lol

Girl, you only have other people's interests at heart, I'm sure. It's admirable, but naive. I was young once myself you know. I was for the war on poverty - I'm partially responsible for the greatest increase in poverty over a twenty year period that this country has ever seen. That was the result of LBJ's "War."

I used to be a flaming liberal - I actually cried when Bobby Kennedy was murdered.

I know it's hard to let go of the idea that giving poor people free money is a quick way of helping the poor, but it's just not. It's not even a good way.

For example, the program that started this "iffy" lending that had a hand in the financial collapse of this fall was started under Carter (who I voted for, BTW) by an all Democratic majority Legislative branch. It sounded like a good idea, get old Scrooge McDuck to stop pinching pennies so tight. Make him give loans to people with questionable credit. Big mean Bankers trying to keep the American Dream all to themselves.

Contrast that with our attitudes today. "The idiot greedmeisters at this or that finance company just couldn't say no to any mortgage because they stood to make so much money off any mortgage!!!"

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

 

[Harte]

Re: Can the 2008 elections really be stopped?

Harte:You make it sound like people are looking at poor people and saying.."wow..I want to be like that..I want to try and live off of $500 a month. Always on the edge of homelessness. Yeah thats for me."
Drugs, alchahol and no education make poor people.

The governmment should do more for the poor then? Let's agree on this, given that the "poor" are poor for reasons other than choice.

You are aware, right, that the people you listed in your post as needing help really don't need help?

I mean, there is lifetime disability for Down's Syndrome victims. Welfare to work programs have worked pretty well. There are food stamps, AFDC, Social Security disability benefits, unemployment compensation. There are college tuition grants, there are various local programs as well.

These people are working, meaning that they all qualify for the earned income credit - that's thousands of dollars a year in free money right there.

Where do you draw the line? I mean, so what if some person is trying to live off 500.00 per month? Why are they doing this is the more pertinant question.

99 times out of a hundred it's because of bad choices they've made in their lives. If you allow no bad consequences for bad choices, what, again, is the incentive for making good choices?

Now, remember, we agreed that the government maybe should do more for poor people? What do you think they should do? Hand out money? Who's money? Why should somebody that tried hard all their life to make the right choices, and succeeded at doing this, be held responsible to give free handouts to people that never tried to do it right? Even if the poor person has seen the error of their ways, I am of the opinion that actions (or inactions) have actual consequences. I don't feel responsible for saving someone from the consequences of their own actions. I don't even do this for my own kids. If I did, I would be a failure as a father, IMO.

Why do the poor feel like they "deserve" somebody else's money?

I listed all of the people that programs for the poor benefit and you seem not to have noticed. The attitude that conservatives have had about the poor are mean spirited. Not every poor person is some lazy ass like you imply. Should society stop helping people because some are frauds?
When I make 20,000 dollars a year I pay more taxes than the top corparations.

First of all, that claim is completely baseless.

Nobody making 20,000 a year is paying much (if any) tax on their income. If they are, they should go to H&R Block. They are in a bracket that there should be no tax on.

Secondly, the idea that any poor individual pays more tax that any corporation is simply a urban legend. That certainly does not happen. Are you aware that every employer pays exactly half of the social security and medicaid taxes on each employee?

When you look at your paystub, check how much your FICA is. Know that your employee is paying the same amount as you - all in your name.

If a company can structure themselves to pay no income tax, that is because the structure they have adopted benefits the United States in some other way. Corporate tax rates aren't "loopholed" for no reason by the Feds.

Yet I understand the need for the incentive to give to these corparations to employ people and give them benefits.If I can understand that then why cant you understand the points that I make about the poor.
Stigma.
Its a battle that will never be won.

I do understand them. I also understand that none of the programs you mention have anything to do with taking money from the rich - via the IRS - and handing it over to people that don't pay taxes - again via the IRS.

If you want more help for the deserving poor, then update the legislation that created the entitlement they now operate under so to increase payments to them. What Obama is doing is saying "Vote for me and I'll send you a check!!"

The rules on welfare and other "giveouts" that the gov has, have been tightened and probably need more tightening and enforcing. Great but lets give people a chance.
While I work with the disadvantaged I have noticed that the drug addicts/drunks/frauds get a little bit of money, but then fade away into the streets. The ones that stick through the programs are the ones who REALLY want it. The grateful ones.
The ones who want to be role models for their kids. Who see the government as giving them a chance in a lifetime and there is no way they are gonna mess it up.
I know women who were drug addict last year and now they work at county buildings and are going for their degrees..Because they can now fill out student financial aid. Because they are off drugs now. They are paying into the system from which they took.

So, is somebody advocating that these programs be shut down? Does Obama's idea to "spread the wealth" include increased student financial aid? If so, he hasn't said so. I wonder why. Probably because saying "Vote for me and I'll marginally increase aid for college students as long as they are passing their classes" won't persuade as many voters as "Vote for me and I'll send you a Gummint check!!!"

While im at it. I am starting to try to get Clackamas county to take men more seriously. It has come to my absolute attention that there are a lot of men who have been living a drug lifestyle with their partners and now they are clean.
The women they have a kid with chooses not to be clean. These men need to be given custody and trained for employment. Oregon right now sees men as people who are last on the list, but with all the drug abuse ggoing on ...more men are stepping up to the plate to take care of theirs. And are having trouble even getting custody. Sexist attitude needs to change. anyway....

GG,

that's great and all, but if you really wanted to make a difference, you might look into finding the reason that nobody is prosecuted for statutory rape when a 13 ior 14 y.o. gets pregnant.

Harte we will always disagree(on this issue anyway) and it sure is nice to have a civil conversation with you. You are mostly prepared and I talk off the top of my head. Can U imagine if I got organized? (up in my brain?)I might make sense?lol

Girl, you only have other people's interests at heart, I'm sure. It's admirable, but naive. I was young once myself you know. I was for the war on poverty - I'm partially responsible for the greatest increase in poverty over a twenty year period that this country has ever seen. That was the result of LBJ's "War."

I used to be a flaming liberal - I actually cried when Bobby Kennedy was murdered.

I know it's hard to let go of the idea that giving poor people free money is a quick way of helping the poor, but it's just not. It's not even a good way.

For example, the program that started this "iffy" lending that had a hand in the financial collapse of this fall was started under Carter (who I voted for, BTW) by an all Democratic majority Legislative branch. It sounded like a good idea, get old Scrooge McDuck to stop pinching pennies so tight. Make him give loans to people with questionable credit. Big mean Bankers trying to keep the American Dream all to themselves.

Contrast that with our attitudes today. "The idiot greedmeisters at this or that finance company just couldn't say no to any mortgage because they stood to make so much money off any mortgage!!!"

We have met the enemy, and he is us.